India raises concern over Russian attack copter sale to Pakistan

[Bratva]

currently we do not need any platform for pure Air Cover , we need to transport troops for DSM's , and there is no other Oprtion them Mi-35 , if there is let me know .

Before Mi-35, What was the modus operandi? Cobra securing LZ along with Bells, providing top cover until soldiers are extracted. Isn't it ? My apprehensions are based on what happen in Iraq. A helicopter staying out of 12.7mm range and providing fire cover with pinpoint strikes (guided weaponry) is better or a helicopter providing cover fire with unguided weaponry while taking 12.7 and risking it's existence is better ?

Two points that you can not grasp. The MI-24/35 is the most heavily armored helicopter in the word, it can, for instance, withstand 12.7mm rounds to its rotor bladed. In fact, the entire helicopter is protected to withstand 12.7mm rounds. Even with direst hits by stinger type rounds to surface missiles, MI-24's were able to land, most other attack helicopters can not even take hits from 7.62.

So your logic that it is easy to down is simply based on ignorance. Also elaborate on what you mean by "bulky" if you think that a helicopter like a cobra is less vulnerable to surface to air missiles then you are very mistaken, the Cobra's smaller profile will not protect it, once a missile is locked it's locked. And contrary to popular myth helicopters can not outturn a missile, so a smaller helicopter has no advantages here.






Yet Russians have been innovative in weapons design so much so that many of the designs/concepts that have come from the Soviet Union/Russia have been copied.

Are you sure about that? Recent examples in Iraq suggest otherwise or is it my flaw understanding that Iraqi pilots might have exposed Mi-35 to 12.7 mm firing for extended period?

 

[MastanKhan]

Before Mi-35, What was the modus operandi? Cobra securing LZ along with Bells, providing top cover until soldiers are extracted. Isn't it ? My apprehensions are based on what happen in Iraq. A helicopter staying out of 12.7mm range and providing fire cover with pinpoint strikes (guided weaponry) is better or a helicopter providing cover fire with unguided weaponry while taking 12.7 and risking it's existence is better ?



Are you sure about that? Recent examples in Iraq suggest otherwise or is it my flaw understanding that Iraqi pilots might have exposed Mi-35 to 12.7 mm firing for extended period?

Sir,

Examples from iraqi military are not even worth the wet wipes of toilet paper---even though they are an extreme neccessity. It should be the wrost day for any military or weapons system for their abilities to be assessed what the iraqi military can do.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Sir,

Examples from iraqi military are not even worth the wet wipes of toilet paper---even though they are an extreme neccessity. It should be the wrost day for any military or weapons system for their abilities to be assessed what the iraqi military can do.

just check what they managed to do with Abrams .. its a travesty that they left the canopy open inviting a grenade from terrorists to be lobbed in

 

[RAMPAGE]

 

[ptldM3]

Before Mi-35, What was the modus operandi? Cobra securing LZ along with Bells, providing top cover until soldiers are extracted. Isn't it ? My apprehensions are based on what happen in Iraq.

There has been a number of Apaches shot down as well as similar helicopters shot down with small arm. I think there is a false sense of security and miss understanding here. Although an MI-35 can withstand large cannon fire it is still not invincible, it is just better protected then most helicopters. The MI-35 has been in dozens of conflicts and many have returned safely after taking heavy fire. There are several ways to bring down an MI-35 and that is with either a very heavy caliber cannon that manages to get a hit on something like the rotors or a lucky shot that manages to ricochet into the intake or exhaust, the last is with a MANPAD.

But of course newer variants of the MI-35 are a lot more difficult to shoot down due to reduced IR, flares, radar warning receivers, ect.

A helicopter staying out of 12.7mm range and providing fire cover with pinpoint strikes (guided weaponry) is better or a helicopter providing cover fire with unguided weaponry while taking 12.7 and risking it's existence is better ?

The Apache, Cobra, Hind, ect all carry three types of weapons: cannon, unguided rockets, and anti tank missiles. Most of the time because it is not only cost effective but has good standoff range cannon or unguided rockets are used. Something like a Hellfire is an anti armor weapon and is too expensive to use on soft targets.

Most of the videos i have seen from Afghanistan and Iraq show that it is the cannon that is used most often. A cannon can also have similar standoff range compared to a lot of air-to-ground guided missiles, especially when used in conjunction TV/FLIR.

 

[Secur]

then again, it was on behest on china that RD-93 was allowed to re-export, the same russia fears to sell Su-35 to china because they fear china would reverse engineer it. The issue is much more complicated then you see it, When no one would invest in PAK-FA india did. So be rest assured Russia will keep in mind India's concern when it comes to sale of sensitive technology, because no one else would invest for development of technology in russia

Through China , not on behest of . Islamabad provided the money and the Russians knew well , where it was going to end up and despite all the Indian concerns , a re-export license was provided to Beijing . These are cold-hard facts , the end story is that the RD93 is powering the JF-17 with more orders likely to follow now that the Russians have lifted the arms embargo , all the technicalities and beating around the bush isn't going to change that . Next , Pakistan purchased II-78 from Ukraine , the former Soviet Union didn't object and this time , Mi-35's have been offered to Islamabad themselves . See things for what they are , time are changing . I am not trying to oversimplifying nor trying to tell you that the Russians will start to sell sensitive technologies to Pakistan or advanced military hardware in one go - we still have a long way to go for that , but from now on it seems that Kremlin will sale to both sides unlike earlier . The arms embargo has ended . The promise of " we do not sell to your enemies " doesn't hold true any longer and thats what I have been trying to tell you people . This is more than the " choppers " deal it appears at first sight , this is a sign of gradually improving relations with Islamabad .

 

[Abingdonboy]

Stupid title, no where has any Indian official raised any objection of any kind to this deal. No matter what India does and doesn't do it will be mocked and taunted I see. What possible concern would India have with this sale?


Congrats guys! You are getting a helo India is phasing out n the next 2 years, why not ask India to donate her Mi-35s to you, would be a nice gesture, maybe even a CBM?

 

[Bratva]

There has been a number of Apaches shot down as well as similar helicopters shot down with small arm. I think there is a false sense of security and miss understanding here. Although an MI-35 can withstand large cannon fire it is still not invincible, it is just better protected then most helicopters. The MI-35 has been in dozens of conflicts and many have returned safely after taking heavy fire. There are several ways to bring down an MI-35 and that is with either a very heavy caliber cannon that manages to get a hit on something like the rotors or a lucky shot that manages to ricochet into the intake or exhaust, the last is with a MANPAD.

But of course newer variants of the MI-35 are a lot more difficult to shoot down due to reduced IR, flares, radar warning receivers, ect.









The Apache, Cobra, Hind, ect all carry three types of weapons: cannon, unguided rockets, and anti tank missiles. Most of the time because it is not only cost effective but has good standoff range cannon or unguided rockets are used. Something like a Hellfire is an anti armor weapon and is too expensive to use on soft targets.

Most of the videos i have seen from Afghanistan and Iraq show that it is the cannon that is used most often. A cannon can also have similar standoff range compared to a lot of air-to-ground guided missiles, especially when used in conjunction TV/FLIR.

By guided weaponry I mean Turkey Citris 2.75" guided missile, they have integrated it in to cobra. Cobra/Super Cobra or T-129 loaded with guided 2.75" (which can be fired from 2-3 KM distance) for supporting Special forces intrusions or Anti-armor missile to kill large formations. Pakistan had planes to purchase super cobra or T-129, and I'm still tilted/biased about Funds sanctioned for Mi-35 should be diverted to buy either of those two heli. Does Russia develop guided 2.75" for Mi-35?

Another thing Mi-35 lack is weapon carriage capability, It carry 4 ATGM with troops on board and Unguided rockets or 8 ATGM without rockets while super cobra/T-129 has double weapon capacity that of Mi-35. It does limit Mi-35 to provide cover fire for long. While Super cobra ot T-129 carries 8 ATGM with Citiris guided rockets or 16 ATGM without guided rockets

A scenario of close proximity, special forces pinned under heavy fire, It can't use ATGM neither unguided rockets. Have to rely on it's gun from standoff point .

Taliban mostly attacks in a 10-20 groups consisting of 100-300. Our cobra has similar armament layout as Mi-35 has. Several time in middle of engagements, Cobra had to go back to base to refill it's Ammo or in clearing mountain tops, cobra fired it's 4 ATGM without significant damage and had to go back to base to refill . Mi-35 has a similar weakness


P.S. Iraqi Mi-35 were brought down with Infrared guided Anti Aircraft guns

 

[Abingdonboy]

What I also find very interesting in a lot of cases of Pakistani arms sales is that there is so much opaqueness to the process and this case is no diiferent- no quantise given, no value of the deal, no info on delivery timelines, no info on weaponry, no info on after sales support not even on the type of helo to be procured! Very shady indeed, could be some generals getting very rich from these "deals".........

 

[Secur]

You are getting a helo India is phasing out n the next 2 years, why not ask India to donate her Mi-35s to you, would be a nice gesture, maybe even a CBM?

Most probably , we aren't getting those helicopters which you are phasing out in 2 years or whenever , there's no need to score brownie points on that .

 

[Abingdonboy]

Most probably , we aren't getting those helicopters which you are phasing out in 2 years or whenever , there's no need to score brownie points on that .

Of course not those exact airframes but the same type, the same type whose design is over 40 years old......

 

[Secur]

Of course not those exact airframes but the same type, the same type whose design is over 40 years old......

Yes , indeed , Russian crap now I believe . God's gift in Indian hands and junk when possessed by others , is it some twisted interpretation of Midas touch by the Indians ? @Irfan Baloch I believe that is your department , mate .

P.S. But since the Russians have assured their counterparts in New Delhi how they do not sell to their enemies , I guess there's no reason for worry . But strangely , I must say , the Indians are giving these threads a lot of attention for being " unconcerned " about the deal and how the whole deal being " insignificant " - two most popular responses in all these threads .

Stupid title, no where has any Indian official raised any objection of any kind to this deal. No matter what India does and doesn't do it will be mocked and taunted I see. What possible concern would India have with this sale?

Barely two days after India flagged its concerns to Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin about Russia's plans to sell military hardware to Pakistan, the neighbouring country's National Security Advisor Sartaj Aziz travelled to Moscow and thanked the Russian leadership for an "agreement" to provide Mi-35 attack helicopters to Islamabad.
Delhi winces as Russia plans to sell Mi-35s to Pakistan | Mail Online

India raised the issue of Russia's decision to sell Mi-35 attack helicopters to Pakistan during talks between visiting Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry O. Rogozin and External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj here Wednesday that also saw both discuss a host of bilateral issues, including ramping up trade ties. Asked if the issue of sale of Mi-35 helicopters had figured in the talks, ministry spokesperson Syed Akbaruddin said the issue did figure in the context of their defence cooperation talks. Earlier this month, Pakistan said that it was negotiating with Russia for the Mi-35s.
India raises Russian decision to sell Mi-35 choppers to Pakistan; talks trade - News

 

[Abingdonboy]

Yes , indeed , Russian crap now I believe . God's gift in Indian hands and junk when possessed by others , is it some twisted interpretation of Midas touch by the Indians ?

Nope not at all. This is very silly, almost childish logic. Everything has a time and place, a context where it is relevant and a shelf life. The MiG-21 in its day was a formidable and cutting edge fighter, now it is junk and known as the "flying coffin".


The same goes for the Mi-35, it was a formidable machine but in the modern age it is not cutting edge anymore. For using as a gunship against rag-tag militias and terror groups in unconventional war fighting it is a decent platform but in a conventional fight it is yesterday's tech. So for use in anti-narco ops it should be great- IF, that is what it is really for.

Would you be happy if the PAF was acquiring MiG-21s?

Barely two days after India flagged its concerns to Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin about Russia's plans to sell military hardware to Pakistan, the neighbouring country's National Security Advisor Sartaj Aziz travelled to Moscow and thanked the Russian leadership for an "agreement" to provide Mi-35 attack helicopters to Islamabad.
Delhi winces as Russia plans to sell Mi-35s to Pakistan | Mail Online

India raised the issue of Russia's decision to sell Mi-35 attack helicopters to Pakistan during talks between visiting Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry O. Rogozin and External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj here Wednesday that also saw both discuss a host of bilateral issues, including ramping up trade ties. Asked if the issue of sale of Mi-35 helicopters had figured in the talks, ministry spokesperson Syed Akbaruddin said the issue did figure in the context of their defence cooperation talks. Earlier this month, Pakistan said that it was negotiating with Russia for the Mi-35s.
India raises Russian decision to sell Mi-35 choppers to Pakistan; talks trade - News

I don't buy the spin put on it. I'd take the words from the horse's mouth and Mr Akbaruddin states the sale "figured in the talks" between the Russian deputy PM and External Affairs minister of India but doesn't state India has taken a position on it. I challenge you to provide me with a source that shows India officially taking a stand against this sale- you won't find one.


Let's be real, if India really truly wanted this deal with Pakistan scrapped it would already be old news.

 

[ito]

Through China , not on behest of . Islamabad provided the money and the Russians knew well , where it was going to end up and despite all the Indian concerns , a re-export license was provided to Beijing . These are cold-hard facts , the end story is that the RD93 is powering the JF-17 with more orders likely to follow now that the Russians have lifted the arms embargo , all the technicalities and beating around the bush isn't going to change that . Next , Pakistan purchased II-78 from Ukraine , the former Soviet Union didn't object and this time , Mi-35's have been offered to Islamabad themselves . See things for what they are , time are changing . I am not trying to oversimplifying nor trying to tell you that the Russians will start to sell sensitive technologies to Pakistan or advanced military hardware in one go - we still have a long way to go for that , but from now on it seems that Kremlin will sale to both sides unlike earlier . The arms embargo has ended . The promise of " we do not sell to your enemies " doesn't hold true any longer and thats what I have been trying to tell you people . This is more than the " choppers " deal it appears at first sight , this is a sign of gradually improving relations with Islamabad .

that is what even russia wants - 'sell to both side', but would russia will be able to with stand india's pressure, unless russia doesn't care from where india buys its military hardware. remember 70% of india's hardware is russian orgin.

 

[Bratva]

What I also find very interesting in a lot of cases of Pakistani arms sales is that there is so much opaqueness to the process and this case is no diiferent- no quantise given, no value of the deal, no info on delivery timelines, no info on weaponry, no info on after sales support not even on the type of helo to be procured! Very shady indeed, could be some generals getting very rich from these "deals".........

So India don't have to bitchhh. Or American politicians influenced by indian lobies don't have to bitchhh about it or western governments from where we are buying things dont bitchhh about abysmal human rights track record of ours and try to block the deal