India, Pakistan locked in their animosities

[srijeesh]

Ruby u tell me that no one listen to them, but I see a different picture, in my scenery India acts exactly what these extremists say, as depicted by its behaviour, say in Gujrat, in Kashmir etc,

And than Indian has yet to declare them terrorist groups, what India is waiting for.

And for my friend who comes in Peace, U.R.welcome, let us talk like good friends and be honest and be considerate as good neighbor should.

why should it matter to pakistani wat happens with in india? why should you try to be the advocates of our minority? is pakistani free from all kinds of extremist problems?

if we want peace, the only way to achieve it is to simply accept each other as they are, instead of trying to prove that one is better than the other.

 

[asq]

why should it matter to pakistani wat happens with in india? why should you try to be the advocates of our minority? is pakistani free from all kinds of extremist problems?

if we want peace, the only way to achieve it is to simply accept each other as they are, instead of trying to prove that one is better than the other.

WOW Srijeesh. now we should accept as we are, but all along u Indians are cursing and taunting Pakistan about its internal problems instead of acting like good/ concerned neighbor, Now we should not interfere in your affairs, but u have done that since Bangladesh and in Kashmir ans in Hyderabad and in Junagarh.

See srijeesh when it reflects upon u than u change the tune. Mr. Indian it will not be smart to dwell on things that both our countries are suffering from, only solutions is to respect and help each other by showing good faith and concern.

We should be open to discuss any and every thing based on Democratic rules and neighborly trust.

 

[srijeesh]

WOW Srijeesh. now we should accept as we are, but all along u Indians are cursing and taunting Pakistan about its internal problems instead of acting like good/ concerned neighbor, Now we should not interfere in your affairs, but u have done that since Bangladesh and in Kashmir ans in Hyderabad and in Junagarh.

See srijeesh when it reflects upon u than u change the tune. Mr. Indian it will not be smart to dwell on things that both our countries are suffering from, only solutions is to respect and help each other by showing good faith and concern.

We should be open to discuss any and every thing based on Democratic rules and neighborly trust.

ignorance evident.
ok, wat happens in india is of no concern to pakistan and vice versa, unless it is security issue.

if something that happens in pakistan impacts india or vice versa we can discuss. otherwise, it is no use.

as for neighbourly trust, we all know how much we trust each other, so why increase the problems.

therefore, wat happens to minorities in india is of no concern to pakistan and vice versa. this is the first step to build trust, if we are serious.

 

[asq]

ignorance evident.
ok, wat happens in india is of no concern to pakistan and vice versa, unless it is security issue.

if something that happens in pakistan impacts india or vice versa we can discuss. otherwise, it is no use.

as for neighbourly trust, we all know how much we trust each other, so why increase the problems.

therefore, wat happens to minorities in india is of no concern to pakistan and vice versa. this is the first step to build trust, if we are serious.

U keep saying that what happens to minorities in India is no concern for Pakistan and in the same breath some of you so arrogantly talk about Baluchistan, what double standard.

 

[srijeesh]

U keep saying that what happens to minorities in India is no concern for Pakistan and in the same breath some of you so arrogantly talk about Baluchistan, what double standard.

I presume that they talk of baluchistan, when you guys try to teach things about democracy and secularism. that is the basis for animosity. we try to teach you and you try to teach us, when clearly neither of us is interested in learning from the other.

so we should simply accept each other as we are. btw, no terrorism.

 

[asq]

I presume that they talk of Baluchistan, when you guys try to teach things about democracy and secularism. that is the basis for animosity. we try to teach you and you try to teach us, when clearly neither of us is interested in learning from the other.

so we should simply accept each other as we are. btw, no terrorism.

Did u not see the report about Bombay attacks, it was planned and the training in a foreign country, for some reason Pakistan do not want to name the country, But the fact of the matter is that from day one you guys tried you utmost to blame Pakistan and still continue to do it, But your own Army who took three day to clear 10 terrorist, your GOI changed it tune like chameleon changes its colors.

yes we should accept simply as we are, And agree to disagre but make promise that there will be no interference into internal Pakistani affairs( Baluchistan ), that Kashmir is a disputed territory as per U.N and that its solution will be based on U.N. resolutions as U.N. is the only body accepted by the world and by your country as the legitimate world body for solutions to the world problems.

There are some countries who claim to be the Democratic, and yet refuse to implement the resolutions by this world court/body. So watch and see the facts specially about godra train whch started Gujrat riots

You can fool some people sometimes but you cannot fool all the people all the times.

 

[hembo]

I think moderator/ webbies should kick out non-relevant posts in this beautiful thread, which had apparently destroyed the basic spirit of the thread. Where we were discussing about forgetting the past and blame game and find ways to move on and look where the last few post had us landed. Talking about the same old stuff which are obviously rampant in most of the other threads anyway. So people, who wants to keep talking about who was wrong and who was right and stuffs like that, there are plenty of other threads here to do that. So back off please.

Specially to third eye, who had started the derailment process of the beautiful thread. The points put up by Asim may not be agreeable to all (hell, some are not agreeable to me either), but that cannot take away the spirit of the thread. Its time to move on guys.

Mods: Hope u're watching and would not let this one die like various peace talks between Ind & Pak!!

 

[Neo]

Please stick to the topic. Off-topic posts will be deleted.

Neo

 

[third eye]

I think moderator/ webbies should kick out non-relevant posts in this beautiful thread, which had apparently destroyed the basic spirit of the thread. Where we were discussing about forgetting the past and blame game and find ways to move on and look where the last few post had us landed. Talking about the same old stuff which are obviously rampant in most of the other threads anyway. So people, who wants to keep talking about who was wrong and who was right and stuffs like that, there are plenty of other threads here to do that. So back off please.

Specially to third eye, who had started the derailment process of the beautiful thread. The points put up by Asim may not be agreeable to all (hell, some are not agreeable to me either), but that cannot take away the spirit of the thread. Its time to move on guys.

Mods: Hope u're watching and would not let this one die like various peace talks between Ind & Pak!!

10. We are no fans of Lashkar-e-Tayyaba(LeT). I for one think fighting for Kashmir is fair game, but if the LeT would take things out of Kashmir, it loses my support. My fight is not with the Indians of Delhi, of Mumbai. My fight is right till I fight the wrong. Which I believe is the Indian occupation, not the Indian.

There is not doubt that the theme of post # 1 is laudable, waranted, appreciable and other words to the effect.

My concern is on the portion underlined above.

You cannot move ahead unless realities are accepted. If any orgnisation wishes to ' fight for kashmir ( J&K)" inside & within Pakistan boundaries,they are welcome. However if they do so inside India and are actively supported both in men & material from Pak.. how on earth does one expect to ' move on ' ?

Can anyone shake hands & stab another at the same time ?

It is unfortunate that my remarks are considered a derailment. However I stand by my belief that in Indo - Pak relations as in any other aspect of human relations acceptance of realities is a critical start point to build from or else the ' sand castles ' will keep tumbling down..undoing all the patient hard work done by so many on both sides of the " radcliffe line '.

 

[IceCold]

10. We are no fans of Lashkar-e-Tayyaba(LeT). I for one think fighting for Kashmir is fair game, but if the LeT would take things out of Kashmir, it loses my support. My fight is not with the Indians of Delhi, of Mumbai. My fight is right till I fight the wrong. Which I believe is the Indian occupation, not the Indian.

There is not doubt that the theme of post # 1 is laudable, waranted, appreciable and other words to the effect.

My concern is on the portion underlined above.

You cannot move ahead unless realities are accepted. If any orgnisation wishes to ' fight for kashmir ( J&K)" inside & within Pakistan boundaries,they are welcome. However if they do so inside India and are actively supported both in men & material from Pak.. how on earth does one expect to ' move on ' ?

Can anyone shake hands & stab another at the same time ?

It is unfortunate that my remarks are considered a derailment. However I stand by my belief that in Indo - Pak relations as in any other aspect of human relations acceptance of realities is a critical start point to build from or else the ' sand castles ' will keep tumbling down..undoing all the patient hard work done by so many on both sides of the " radcliffe line '.

That is the main problem accepting ground reality as you may want to put it. You see the thing you call reality well we don't see it that way, same stands the other way round and hence differences arises. The solution to this well no one has come up with one so far, the way i see it, is just one and that is the military one. Who comes out winner at the end is an altogether different story i am not going to go into that but rest assured, we are not going anywhere on this particular front even if sixty more years pass by the diplomatic front. Sometimes one needs to force the other to see its version of the thing called reality.

 

[third eye]

That is the main problem accepting ground reality as you may want to put it. You see the thing you call reality well we don't see it that way, same stands the other way round and hence differences arises. The solution to this well no one has come up with one so far, the way i see it, is just one and that is the military one. Who comes out winner at the end is an altogether different story i am not going to go into that but rest assured, we are not going anywhere on this particular front even if sixty more years pass by the diplomatic front. Sometimes one needs to force the other to see its version of the thing called reality.

Yes you have a point.

If wars could solve problems, the world would be a less troublesome place.

We have tried wars, subversion.. the whole gamut of subterfuge. None has worked.

Possesion is 3/ 4 th of the law in any property dispute.

Is Pak ever going to give up its ' claim" on J&K.. No. Is India ever going to give in .. No.

Is there anything we have not tried .. from infiltration, wars to Nuke..No

Now what ?.. acceptance.. maybe.

Any other options ?.. lets discuss.

 

[IceCold]

Yes you have a point.

If wars could solve problems, the world would be a less troublesome place.

We have tried wars, subversion.. the whole gamut of subterfuge. None has worked.

Why do you think Americans are so keen in a military action, why don't they always negotiate and try to resolve the issue on the democratic front. Wars do solve the problem, if not more the least they do is give the politicians the political power to resolve the issue specially if they have the upper hand. Take the example of 71, India had the upper hand, they had the leverage as 90000 men were taken as POW, if your leaders acted a bit smart, they would have forced Pakistan to give up its claim of Kashmir for good. Why can't the same happen again, unless you have a different opinion about your armed forces.

Possesion is 3/ 4 th of the law in any property dispute.

Well typically yes, however this is not a typical case of disputed property or is it? By the way are you a property dealer?lol just kidding.

Is Pak ever going to give up its ' claim" on J&K.. No. Is India ever going to give in .. No.

Exactly my point, since we both are never ever going to give our claims over the territory, hence we will come to no solution even after sixty more years, however one can always force the other party to drop it and this is where the military comes into play.

Is there anything we have not tried .. from infiltration, wars to Nuke..No

Now what ?.. acceptance.. maybe.

Any other options ?.. lets discuss.

Infiltrations well yes but just a pressure tactic to force the other party to bring it to the negotiating table and resolve the issue. That did not happen, moreover infiltrations never really went smooth, from time to time different government maintained different policies and specially after 9/11 things changed dramatically.
The kind of military action i am talking about, ahh well lets just say, its a kind of a thing where two men go out in the open and only one comes back home Alive that is.

 

[third eye]

Why do you think Americans are so keen in a military action, why don't they always negotiate and try to resolve the issue on the democratic front. Wars do solve the problem, if not more the least they do is give the politicians the political power to resolve the issue specially if they have the upper hand. Take the example of 71, India had the upper hand, they had the leverage as 90000 men were taken as POW, if your leaders acted a bit smart, they would have forced Pakistan to give up its claim of Kashmir for good. Why can't the same happen again, unless you have a different opinion about your armed forces.



Well typically yes, however this is not a typical case of disputed property or is it? By the way are you a property dealer?lol just kidding.



Exactly my point, since we both are never ever going to give our claims over the territory, hence we will come to no solution even after sixty more years, however one can always force the other party to drop it and this is where the military comes into play.



Infiltrations well yes but just a pressure tactic to force the other party to bring it to the negotiating table and resolve the issue. That did not happen, moreover infiltrations never really went smooth, from time to time different government maintained different policies and specially after 9/11 things changed dramatically.
The kind of military action i am talking about, ahh well lets just say, its a kind of a thing where two men go out in the open and only one comes back home Alive that is.

Allow me to welcome you to the real world.

Even if one man dies, his offspring / relatives carry on the fight..remember we are asians. Not europeans who & forgive & forget.

Economic considerations matter little. We already have so little.. losing it all & starting again is not something that worries most in our part of the world.

Whichever Way you look at it, accepting realities & moving on is the only option.

Unless you could think of another ' workable' option.

.. and yes, I concede it was a monumental blunder on part of GOI for not having resolved J&K issue once & for all with 93000 POWs in hand. No army after WWII has ever given its govt an chance like this. It had not three but all four aces in its hand & frittered away the opportunity of a lifetime.

Indira Gandhi got taken in by Bhutto's pleadings in Simla.

 

[IceCold]

Allow me to welcome you to the real world.

Even if one man dies, his offspring / relatives carry on the fight..remember we are asians. Not europeans who & forgive & forget.

Economic considerations matter little. We already have so little.. losing it all & starting again is not something that worries most in our part of the world.

Whichever Way you look at it, accepting realities & moving on is the only option.

Unless you could think of another ' workable' option.

.. and yes, I concede it was a monumental blunder on part of GOI for not having resolved J&K issue once & for all with 93000 POWs in hand. No army after WWII has ever given its govt an chance like this. It had not three but all four aces in its hand & frittered away the opportunity of a lifetime.

Indira Gandhi got taken in by Bhutto's pleadings in Simla.

Hardly what you call a real world. Since you choose to avoid answering a few points that i raised earlier, i shall assume that either you don't have an answer to those or perhaps you agree with me, anyways since you raise a one more point let me answer it
1)Economic point
well this is something that no only worries for your part of the world but ours too (if by the word world you meant India only). However since there is always a fear of escalation and a war, be it the kashmir issue, a terrorist attack in India and Pakistan getting blamed spot on or the water issue and Pakistan getting dried out, the threat of a conflict is always there which means that a huge spending on defense and trying to side step each other over any matter through covert operations is considered a key to success which means less attention on the economic front. Let me put is this way if either one of us is out, the cost in order to achieve that would be huge no one is denying but worth every effort as the other remaining party has no longer need to worry about an enemy and the focus would be entirely on the economic front and development, at least for us, for India the case might be a bit different but not entirely as side stepping Pakistan, India will no longer have to worry about a two front war i.e from China and Pakistan and no more terrorist attacks and not to mention no more whining over Kashmir from Pakistan.
I gave you the example of 71, so let me ask you again why not give it a try this time unless you have a different opinion about your armed forces specially after Mumbai carnage. The pleading or whatever you may want to call it begging and if i missed a word please add about Bhutto's attitude in the simla which the Bhagwan feared Indra Ganghi could not take it anymore and out of her good heart decided to let the prisoners go without getting any thing out from us, perhaps will not always be the case specially if hard liners such as BJP are in the government.
There is not other workable solution to this, if there was, sixty plus years, we may have heard something for a change, nothing happened and nothing will happen, we can go on and on and on but to what avail, nothing at all, and as for accepting the ground realities that wont happen either not by a long shot, if there would have been a slightest of possibility, we would have seen something. Even you can't deny the fact that from the time of Musharraf and that is eight long years, the Pakistani leaders went out of the line to settle disputes with India your leaders accepted this fact in fact if i remember correctly your PM was to visit Pakistan as they saw it a golden opportunity, if that did not happen then, it wont happen now and in the future as well. By the way Pakistan is already complaining that India took undue advantage of the peace initiatives taken by Pakistan and is trying to sidestep the real issues most notably the kashmir issue.

 

[third eye]

Hardly what you call a real world. Since you choose to avoid answering a few points that i raised earlier, i shall assume that either you don't have an answer to those or perhaps you agree with me,

Apologies for having missed ur point.. if you cud re- highlight them.. will try to answer. Its nice to interact with you.


anyways since you raise a one more point let me answer it
1)Economic point
well this is something that no only worries for your part of the world but ours too (if by the word world you meant India only).

On this forum ' our ' means S Asia, we may have borders between us but are united in the same type of problems, attitudes, approach & background.

However since there is always a fear of escalation and a war, be it the kashmir issue, a terrorist attack in India and Pakistan getting blamed spot on or the water issue and Pakistan getting dried out, the threat of a conflict is always there which means that a huge spending on defense and trying to side step each other over any matter through covert operations is considered a key to success which means less attention on the economic front. Let me put is this way if either one of us is out, the cost in order to achieve that would be huge no one is denying but worth every effort as the other remaining party has no longer need to worry about an enemy and the focus would be entirely on the economic front and development, at least for us, for India the case might be a bit different but not entirely as side stepping Pakistan, India will no longer have to worry about a two front war i.e from China and Pakistan and no more terrorist attacks and not to mention no more whining over Kashmir from Pakistan.

Theoretically, you are right. However in the ' real world'..unlikey. Pak, to mind is suffering mostly from " self inflicted injuries" & has less to worry as compared to India ( & more from its own self) as far as near & far threat perceptions are concerned. Most of Pak's probs could be addressed by " acceptance of ground realities". While India has to contend with much more than just Pak.

As far as removing opposition is concerned ( ref underlined portion above), the cost to Pak to attempt such an adventure would be so high that if it fails( which I am sure it will), it will be end of Pak as a nation we now know. It it worth ' risking all" & that too to what avail ? While planning military adventures there is a quotient of ' taking acceptable military risks" , in this option the negatives out weigh the positives. However if Pak wishes to .. India will surely oblige.

I gave you the example of 71, so let me ask you again why not give it a try this time unless you have a different opinion about your armed forces specially after Mumbai carnage. The pleading or whatever you may want to call it begging and if i missed a word please add about Bhutto's attitude in the simla which the Bhagwan feared Indra Ganghi could not take it anymore and out of her good heart decided to let the prisoners go without getting any thing out from us, perhaps will not always be the case specially if hard liners such as BJP are in the government.

As for what you have written above, India is always game. An option was given to Pak in 2002 & 1999.

Wars my friend are not fought to ' give it a try". Its rightly said " wars are too serious a thing to left to Generals'. As school boys , its OK to feel / think like this, not as grown ups.

I have no idea why you choose to link the mumbai carnage with views on the IA. Be rest assured the IA/ IAF / IN is more than capable to handle two fronts. They are rearing to go, only the politicians are unwilling to let go.
The bane of Indian polity has been that since mid 90's we have had coalition govts who have baulked under domestic pressure. I am not a fan of Congress or any other Pol party but I feel India needs ppl like Indira & Rajeev Gandhi who had the mandate to take decsions.

There is not other workable solution to this, if there was, sixty plus years, we may have heard something for a change, nothing happened and nothing will happen, we can go on and on and on but to what avail, nothing at all, and as for accepting the ground realities that wont happen either not by a long shot, if there would have been a slightest of possibility, we would have seen something. Even you can't deny the fact that from the time of Musharraf and that is eight long years, the Pakistani leaders went out of the line to settle disputes with India your leaders accepted this fact in fact if i remember correctly your PM was to visit Pakistan as they saw it a golden opportunity, if that did not happen then, it wont happen now and in the future as well. By the way Pakistan is already complaining that India took undue advantage of the peace initiatives taken by Pakistan and is trying to sidestep the real issues most notably the kashmir issue.

The problem with dealing with Pak leaders is that ' whom do you trust ?" & for how long ?

Vajpayee was in Lahore with NS while Mush was making intrusions in Kargil. We heard the taped conversation he had with staff while he was in China. The same Gent changes his spots & gives suggestions on how to divide property he does not even hold ! Not to mention the multiple power centers in Pak.

There are so many other instances. Surely you too would have a list of similar instances when Indian leaders went back on a promise.

Thats why I feel that accepting realities is the only available option... OR lets agree to disagree & continue squabbling & plotting against each other which essentially means Status quo ante.