India orders Army back from attack posts on Pak border?

[saiyan0321]

It will be good if u don't put such things (like above) in public domain, where one can be contacted for cultivation.

dude what is anybody going to take from thatP

 

[blain2]

Actually, the intention of the Sachen operation was itself a quest for "misadventure". How can you expect India to forgo the opportunity? I can give you 95% assurance that India will not withdraw even if they have to spend exorbitant sums of moneybecause this is a question of strategic advantage.



They can advance at the slightest opportunity and capture the other strategic peaks. I forgot their name I read in an indian publication, maybe C-2 mountain or something which overlooks the roads connecting china -pakistan

Once you have a deployment, suddenly the position becomes the most strategic in the world, and this tends to happen not because a position necessarily is strategic, rather the cost incurred in taking it is the reason it becomes "strategic", otherwise you cannot justify the investment. There is nothing on the Siachen that is "strategic" unless both or either India of Pakistan plan on blocking the flow of water at the glacier from going to the other country which is not only unfeasible but quite idiotic as well.

Siachen does not threaten KKH in any way. The issue is and has always been that of territorial claim over a disputed tract of land. No significant pressure can be exerted from the glacier itself.

 

[saiyan0321]

No one can understand it more then me whose 3 family members are rotting in the rough mountain tops 6 months in a year due to pakistan.

umm i cant believe it i have to say it but can like not disrespect those soldiers who are ur family and not just due to us pal due to your country too its not a hero villain thing

Plz, sir don't sell me goodwill cookie.

I will believe goodwill the day:

- Fake currency export stops

- Dawood Ibrahim handed over to us.

- Hafeez Saeed Hanged.

isi is behind fake currency what difference would that make you know we can make allegations too but hey crazy idea how about give peace a chance we are not saying this bcz we are weak we are saying this too end this conflict we are acting like a grown up

In that case, What happen in the Kargil?????

We can't take chances.

i can say siachin too and say no chances but like i said how about if we have held our hand for friendship take it

Siachen does not threaten KKH in any way. The issue is and has always been that of territorial claim over a disputed tract of land. No significant pressure can be exerted from the glacier itself.

more like pride what we say over here annaP

 

[Icarus]

Actually, the intention of the Sachen operation was itself a quest for "misadventure". How can you expect India to forgo the opportunity? I can give you 95% assurance that India will not withdraw even if they have to spend exorbitant sums of moneybecause this is a question of strategic advantage.

Until status quo is recognized or we return to pre-1984 positions, neither of our Armies are going to be leaving the Glacier, that is why I advise setting up a Joint Observer Group with Indian, Pakistani and Neutral Observers who can monitor the area and ensure that no side transgresses from the status quo. If anything, it will save us from the 400 annual deaths that both sides have to deal with.

 

[King Solomon]

There are no roads within miles! The Karakoran Highway is not even within artillery distance; nor is the Chinese highway through Aksai Chin. Will somebody tell me what roadway system this is intended to interrupt?

Please, please, look at a ******* topographical map, and get me out of tearing my hair. I don't have much left.

Do people imagine a Ho Chi Minh trail across 22,000 feet mountains and passes? The three passes are 17/18,000 feet! The Saltoro ridge is 22,000 feet plus, around 25,000 feet.

Would somebody who's been to Leh recently tell me how they felt when they stepped out of doors? That's Leh at - what? - 10, 11,000 feet?

What strategic are we talking about? Are the Chinese going to grow wings and fly across? Or are the Pakistanis growing hooves and trotting across the passes? God save me from map strategists!

I cannot find the exact link now but I have stored the report in my laptop. it goes like this. The Sachen peak is definitely a very important point for India and I am sure Indian planners will NEVER withdraw and I understand why so. All peace talk is just for hogwash diplomacy and nothing more. Neither will pakistan because they both know how important it is.

In civilian minds, the common misperception is that Siachen sector comprises only the Siachen Glacier and hence de-militarisation should be no big deal. It is not so.

Pakistan wants India to give up the entire Saltoro Ridge, a long ridge extending nearly 120 km, (on which runs the Actual Ground Position Line, or AGPL) from the border of India with Pakistan ceded Chinese territory in the north to India's Kargil sector in the east.

The strategic significance of the Saltoro Ridge and the Siachen Glacier is that it gives India strategic and terrain domination over Pakistan's so-called Northern Areas (Jammu and Kashmir territory merged into Pakistan) and Pakistan-ceded Kashmir territory to China.

It also blocks routes of ingress to the vital Ladakh sector, and provides a 'strategic wedge' to prevent a further Pakistan-China geographical link-up.

It acts as a 'strategic pressure point' against Pakistan's military adventurism in the Kargil sector.

Indira-Col, the northern most part of Siachen, directly overlooks Chinese occupied territory that was illegally ceded by Pakistan to China. Having a foot on the ground here is the only way for India to legitimately and effectively dispute the illegal Chinese presence here.

 

[H1ndustaN1]

umm i cant believe it i have to say it but can like not disrespect those soldiers who are ur family and not just due to us pal due to your country too its not a hero villain thing



isi is behind fake currency what difference would that make you know we can make allegations too but hey crazy idea how about give peace a chance we are not saying this bcz we are weak we are saying this too end this conflict we are acting like a grown up



i can say siachin too and say no chances but like i said how about if we have held our hand for friendship take it



more like pride what we say over here annaP

Lol I just love the way you guys keep throwing out that friendship card every now and then. What next? Start a new slogan my 'friend' - Pak-Hindi-bhai-bhai ^^

So now you will hold out your hand for friendship and we just have to accept it. And then your next military government will decide to pull another Kargil and we have to spend countless of our soldiers' lives just to reclaim that position.

And come on now really, friends? Are you under some misconception that we really want to be friends with you.

As far as many of us are concerned you are still around for just two reasons my friend.

1. You have nuclear weapons
2. Our government is weak

The day we find a way around either one, you'd find yourself in a lot of trouble. The day we realize both situations are no longer applicable, you'd find yourself off the map. I'm sure you know this.

Stop playing this friendship card time and again cos we both know its a cheap trick.

 

[Nitin Goyal]

Few days back..i was watching a discussion on timesnow and wre they had a interview with subedar bana singh and he was vociferously against the withdrawal of the forces from siachin...his arguments do have some merits....

 

[blain2]

Money is not a problem, specially for defense and more particularly for strategics cases.

Just because you say it does not mean that money is not a problem. Money is a huge problem and will always remain, an increase of a few billions in the budget does not mean you can sustain it. There is another 100 issues that can be added to the list that I provided to make the point that mobilization is costly and cannot be sustained long term by anyone.

No one can understand it more then me whose 3 family members are rotting in the rough mountain tops 6 months in a year due to pakistan.

How about those who have served there?

But we have to do it because its vital for us.

So vital it is! Maintain your presence.

Plz, sir don't sell me goodwill cookie.

I will believe goodwill the day:

- Fake currency export stops

- Dawood Ibrahim handed over to us.

- Hafeez Saeed Hanged.

I don't sell anything. Suffice it to say, Pakistan won't wither away and die if the deployment continues and if you want lists to be shared to resolve, as I have mentioned above, we have a lengthy one too. Care to entertain ours? Lets stay on topic. Siachen has nothing to do with fake currency and local terrorists. Do you think India does not pump counterfeit into Pakistan or supports those against the Pakistani federation?

In that case, What happen in the Kargil?????

What happened in East Pakistan and in Siachen? I know all of the arguments you will put forth to defend your case, but the point is that there is trust deficit on our side too.

We can't take chances.

No worries, the reality is that there is no such a thing as a perpetual mobilization.

 

[Icarus]

Well we do certainly respect the contributions u have made to your army sir, just like how we respect the contributions made to our defence by our soldiers.

Yet let me remind you of one of the harshest realities of the army. You don't decide who or when you should shoot. Or why. Soldiers are never in a position to make decisions.

I do acknowledge your desire for peace and I respect it, don't get me wrong. But this issue is something way beyond the average citizen, average keyboard warrior and ironically, the soldier, who above all, sacrifices the most in the name of his country.

It is not the average keyboard warrior like us who makes peace look uncertain. That credit goes to the state within the state which exists in your country, the ISI, and also your ever-so-powerful generals who sack a civilian government every decade or so and make a 180 degree turn around in their policies.

As for the bolded comment, no it's not just the Pak soldier who has seen bloodshed and the unnecessary loss of lives due to strained Indo-Pak relations, but the average Indian civilian too. Need I remind u about 26/11? Nobody cares who sponsored them. All the average Joe cares about is that they are Pakistani.

I respect your desire for peace. I have never known a Pakistani soldier personally and it's nice to know that there are people among u who like peace. Yet let me remind you of one reality. If there is a war, and if u r told to shoot one of ours, you would do it. Like I said, it is not the jawan who makes the decision but people higher up.

Its your higher ups who are always the problem.

Point being, relationships between my country and yours are beyond the scope of the average citizen or jawan.

You will find that soldiers are the ones that desire peace the most. We may be a moment's notice away from putting ourselves in harm's way on our country's call but that does not make us Super Human, we also take a moment before we kill, we feel that the man going to die has a family, friends, parents. That's why while Keyboard Warriors tear each other apart, we maintain the highest standards of professional and moral conduct, we return bodies with full military honours, hold border flag meeting. We respect each other and wish that someday, we could actually call the other a friend without fearing that we might have to kill this very 'Friend' tomorrow. Peace is the need of the hour, the ISI, the Generals, everybody is now more sure than ever that some sort of compromise will have to be made. This rivalry is unsustainable, in the long run, theres a lot that could have been, but isn't because we were too busy working out ways to harm each other. The era of wars is over and there's a hope for peace to prevail, though from the feedback I and Joe have been getting, it seems like a far cry.

I will believe goodwill the day:

- Fake currency export stops

- Dawood Ibrahim handed over to us.

- Hafeez Saeed Hanged.
:

1) Comes through Nepal, never proven to come from Pakistan.
2) Never seen or heard in Pakistan, existence never proven.
3) We initiated a case against him, a confession from Ajmal Kasab was incriminating evidence, however, the committee was not granted access to him. I fail to see how that is our fault. We can't hang him on speculation alone.

As most of your points are based on speculation and hearsay, they can probably never be met. So I guess there will never be peace. BTW: We will fulfil your demands when you handover Bongo the Juggling Elephant and the rest of the Zooligans, who are convicted bank robbing animals and are being sheltered by R&AW. That's how the above stated demands sound to me.

 

[King Solomon]

.............

Like i said, policymakers are not fool. They know how important Sachen is for India as I illustrated in my previous post.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I cannot find the exact link now but I have stored the report in my laptop. it goes like this. The Sachen peak is definitely a very important point for India and I am sure Indian planners will NEVER withdraw and I understand why so. All peace talk is just for hogwash diplomacy and nothing more. Neither will pakistan because they both know how important it is.

In civilian minds, the common misperception is that Siachen sector comprises only the Siachen Glacier and hence de-militarisation should be no big deal. It is not so.

Pakistan wants India to give up the entire Saltoro Ridge, a long ridge extending nearly 120 km, (on which runs the Actual Ground Position Line, or AGPL) from the border of India with Pakistan ceded Chinese territory in the north to India's Kargil sector in the east.

The strategic significance of the Saltoro Ridge and the Siachen Glacier is that it gives India strategic and terrain domination over Pakistan's so-called Northern Areas (Jammu and Kashmir territory merged into Pakistan) and Pakistan-ceded Kashmir territory to China.

It also blocks routes of ingress to the vital Ladakh sector, and provides a 'strategic wedge' to prevent a further Pakistan-China geographical link-up.

Let's take a closer look at this claim.

Imagine a trough, with high side-walls and a deep central cavity, running north-west to south-east. The southern edge of the trough is the Saltoro Ridge, 20,000' +, occupied by the Indian Army. Behind that, runs the trough, the actual glacier. Still further north is the northern wall of the trough, which borders on the Shaksgam Valley, given to China by Pakistan in their border adjustments. The extreme eastern edge of this northern ridge is almost at the Karakorum Pass, but is actually separated from it by another glacier. The Siachen Glacier is the central trough in this, and runs from its origins in the north-west down to the head of the glacier, the snout, in the south-east, from which the Nubra River springs from glacier melt.

So what about the strategic significance?

The strategic significance of the Saltoro Ridge and the Siachen Glacier is that it gives India strategic and terrain domination over Pakistan's so-called Northern Areas (Jammu and Kashmir territory merged into Pakistan) and Pakistan-ceded Kashmir territory to China.

Is this guy kidding? Anyone coming up the heights from the Pakistani side will get shot to doll rags before getting even close to Indian positions. Any attempt by us to come down to the plains of GB from these Saltoro positions is equally suicide by lead poisoning. Can you imagine the company strength, often platoon strength, outposts mounting an armed assault on the Pakistan Army present below in brigade strength? If anyone thinks so, please tell me and I shall recite a famous poem by Tennyson which might be apt for the occasion.

It also blocks routes of ingress to the vital Ladakh sector,

What routes of ingress? Huskies and/or snowshoes mushing down the glacier, crevasse to the right of them, ice-bridge to the left of them? Will these troops be in any condition after that trip down the glacier to do anything but beg for steaming hot water to try and save their toes?

....provides a 'strategic wedge' to prevent a further Pakistan-China geographical link-up.

<rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb>

The wings-and-trotters routine, as played in the famous Folies Bergere?

Look, I really like your posts, and your dry commonsensical approach. Not this time, though. On this, the point is very simple. If we just want to stick it to the PA, or hold on to it because we are holding on to it, and can't trust Pakistan not to move in, and make us feel bad, that's fine, let's just leave it at that, let's not get all strategic about it, because that makes it painful. Laughing beyond a point is painful. There is ZERO strategy involved in hanging on to Siachen.

PS: about the policy-makers, let's be very clear about what is happening. The Indian Army has said that it will kick the balls of any babu who suggests handing over the positions to Pakistan, or even de-militarising, and the babus have suddenly started walking around with legs tightly clenched together and avoiding uniforms whenever they see them. That's all. The Army has been asked in the past to hand over positions it felt were tactically important in nature (not strategic, for Pete's sake), and doesn't like to get into those discussions once again. Period.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Until status quo is recognized or we return to pre-1984 positions, neither of our Armies are going to be leaving the Glacier, that is why I advise setting up a Joint Observer Group with Indian, Pakistani and Neutral Observers who can monitor the area and ensure that no side transgresses from the status quo. If anything, it will save us from the 400 annual deaths that both sides have to deal with.

Sensible post.This is feasible.I am shocked to learn india wastes $2 million every day on siachen.

 

[newdelhinsa]

Am I missing something ? The troop withdrawal from attack positions is not from Siachen but IB and LOC. And its a good move BTW..

MoD has clarified that there is now withdrawal and its fiction by that tribune paper.

What are we discussing here.

The thread should be locked and be dumped into some place deep in arabian sea.

Ok I missed that part too...

 

[AUz]

Sachen withdrawal would be ablunder for India. India is just one step away from cutting off or getting in range the strategic road link that runs from pakistan to china.

You , sir , are an idiot. Atleast learn the BASIC geography before vomiting the internet. India is just "one step away" from cutting Karakorum?

Siachen , unlike Kargil , has NO strategic importance...India just has a minor tactical advantage due to height...Indian chance of every coming down from the top is pretty much negated due the occupation of Gyong La pass by the Pakistani Army. Also , ANYTHING of "strategic" nature (be the highest peaks of the region (K-2 series etc) , rivers of Pakistan originating from that area , and/or Karakorum road) is way , way far than Indian position right now...and India can NEVER come down and gain enough ground to threat Pakistan's interest. So

 

[Bang Galore]

PS: about the policy-makers, let's be very clear about what is happening. The Indian Army has said that it will kick the balls of any babu who suggests handing over the positions to Pakistan, or even de-militarising, and the babus have suddenly started walking around with legs tightly clenched together and avoiding uniforms whenever they see them. That's all. The Army has been asked in the past to hand over positions it felt were tactically important in nature (not strategic, for Pete's sake), and doesn't like to get into those discussions once again. Period.

Enough said I think.

Siachen , unlike Kargil , has NO strategic importance...India just has a minor tactical advantage due to height...Indian chance of every coming down from the top is pretty much negated due the occupation of Gyong La pass by the Pakistani Army. Also , ANYTHING of "strategic" nature (be the highest peaks of the region (K-2 series etc) , rivers of Pakistan originating from that area , and/or Karakorum road) is way , way far than Indian position right now...and India can NEVER come down and gain enough ground to threat Pakistan's interest. So

The assumption made by many here is that we want to come down & take more territory. The heights of Saltoro separate Pakistan from Siachen making it impossible for the Pakistani army to ever think of moving on to the glacier itself. We are on the heights to keep you chaps out of Siachen, we have absolutely no interest in coming down on your side. I believe Siachen can be demilitarised but on terms that preserve the staus quo. Those suggesting joint control are just smoking some fine stuff. What territory that Pakistan holds is it willing to put under joint control? Baltoro? Silly to ask for joint control of what is completely held by India without offering something in return