‘India might not be able to defend itself from Pakistani missiles’

[Taimoor Khan]

If you look for enemies then count us in , I dont give a shit

Its not about looking out for enemies, its about ensuring our national security is not jeopardize, under any pretext. If you are hell bend on assisting our mortal enemy against us, then its only fair, we deal with your enemies in similar fashion without giving any thoughts about your security. As I said earlier, its the universal Newton law of motion. Just going by our history, we have always paid back. You wont be any different to the rest came before you. Rest assured.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

ignore the butt-hurt...

back on topic, i don't know much about Israeli ABM capabilities, but the specifications about our Ashwin AAD missile is available, does this Ashwin AAD in anyway resemble the capabilities of Israeli ABM capability?

I mean, i'm not sure whether Israeli scientists were consulted for this Ashwin project, when ever there has been a collaboration between Israel and India, it has been openly acknowledged, but I haven't seen official confirmation of Israel's involvement in this project (or have I missed something?)were any such news published in Israel's news sources? Has anything ever been mentioned in Israeli media about this Ashwin AAD missile?

The swordfish radar used by Indian BMD is Israeli Green Pine radar derivative.

 

[Hellfire]

it was a political loss
but not military

Just one guidance as I am assuming you are non-military background seeing this post

War is ALWAYS an extension of your foreign policy/objectives.

War is defined as a coercive action undertaken to impose your will upon another nation when diplomacy fails.

So whenever any war is fought - it is always with political objectives.

As per your own statement - you lost the political war

Militarily - you gained nothing, indeed you lost few peaks which were lost by Indians prior to 1999 in the usual cross raids in LC environment in 90s ... and the alignment which Indians lost in the sector not in consonance with 1971 ceasefire line was reached again and ceasefire line re-established .... no net gain militarily for you. You can verify the facts with the agreement to de-escalate in mid July by both nations and cessation of hostilities by Indians only after July 26.

Thanks

 

[for truth]

The swordfish radar used by Indian BMD is Israeli Green Pine radar derivative.

Thanks, this is as much even I heard about.

you might find this interesting....Saurav Jha once mentioned about an incident when a group of Indian scientists visited Russia to showcase the in-house work done by DRDO on ABM. The DRDO scientists had done all their homework and had prepared presentations, and when they were presenting it to Russian scientists, an old Russian scientist in his 80's, sitting at the back, got up on his feet and said we had got it all wrong. He moved to the board, and within few minutes, derived set of mathematical equations and proved how our ABM would fail. But all this was long back in 90's when we were still taking baby steps in ABM research.

Apart from the radar and basic fundamental mathematics of ABM, I'm not sure to what extent the others were involved (if at all) in developing the said particular Ashwin AAD missile.

 

[باپ]

The "Russian expert" sounds like trying to sell S-400 to India by criticizing Indian ABM.

Pakistan shouldn't listen to such dubious assessment and continue working on what had already started, improving warheads maneuverability for avoiding ABM.

 

[DavidSling]

ignore the butt-hurt...

back on topic, i don't know much about Israeli ABM capabilities, but the specifications about our Ashwin AAD missile is available, does this Ashwin AAD in anyway resemble the capabilities of Israeli ABM capability?

I mean, i'm not sure whether Israeli scientists were consulted for this Ashwin project, when ever there has been a collaboration between Israel and India, it has been openly acknowledged, but I haven't seen official confirmation of Israel's involvement in this project (or have I missed something?)were any such news published in Israel's news sources? Has anything ever been mentioned in Israeli media about this Ashwin AAD missile?

Be sure that cooperationg with India is more than what is being released into the media, way more

 

[Basel]

You don't have be condescending to get your point across, doing that shows you are already biased about certain point of views.
I already explained MIRVs but yes they do pose a challenge and ABMs have only just started becoming advanced as opposed to MIRVs and MARVs existing for around 30 years or so. Most of the parameters for ABM countermeasures have remained same as opposed to the advancement in ABMs in the last decade or 2 i.e. PDVs, Arrow-2s and THAADs.
HGVs are 10 -20 years away from being operational, but remind what program does Pakistan have in place for HGVs?.
You are forgetting that ABMs are evolving too as the threat perception changes. Its only a matter of time when both meet in the middle. And when that happens, the countries that didn't develop ABM systems will be the ones on the backfoot.

As for SAMs and ,SEAD and DEAD missions, those were literally as successful as they were because US was technologically more advanced than the nations(middle eastern, Vietnam, Korean) it went up against. Name any recent SEAD missions where US or any such instigator was on equal footing with its enemy? That's what you will be facing.



How much Pakistan can absorb, that's the real question.
You have a smaller landmass and it will take you time to reach our furthest points as opposed to us being able to reach you.
Remember we might or might not be able to intercept most of your missiles but you will be able to intercept none of the missiles if we do launch, since you have no ABM at all.
And we also will have 2nd strike capability, what then?

What missile shield are you talking about

And we don't have satellite based guidance systems? Infact we have our own guidance system(Navic) too.

if you think China will take 10 years to field HGV then you are living in fools heaven. They may not officially announce deployment till next 10 year but like DF21D it will be operational silently in next 5 years max. And you think I biased just because I don't agree with you. That is typical biased mentality.

 

[Alpha BeeTee]

Obviously, no system is perfect. The goal for both sides, however, is to reduce the damage as much as possible.

The goal for Pakistan is to increase the cost for India in case of India being on the aggressive mode.
The more Pakistan raises the cost,the greater hesitation India will face to launch an offensive which in turn will translate into greater stability for South Asia.

 

[sherin616]

Who is worried? Am I? (Hint Answer: NO)

Word of advice - follow the context of the quotes. You derail the thread by quoting me without seeing to who I have answer on what question and collating with my other posts.

FYI - over here I may be one of the very few members from India who are quite confident about our capabilities irrespective of Pakistani developments. So chill .......... don't quote me until and unless you are adding something new for me to know.

So much hate
you quoted me frist
I dont care you are worrie or not

 

[kadamba-warrior]

The article is, to a certain extent , true.. The Indian BMD system is not 100% effective. Even when the tech matures and is deployed , it still won't be 100% effective. But that doesn't make it useless. Let me explain. Suppose India goes to war with a nuclear opponent in near future. And let's say Indian BMD has a piss poor interception rate of 70% i.e. 3 out of 10 times, the hostile nuke missile will be able to reach its target. But one important thing we have to keep in mind, is that Indian BMD is supposed to consist of two different missiles, PAD ( exo-atmosphere interception ) and AAD ( indo-atmosphere interception ), which means that India would get two shots at the same missiles. If PAD fails to intercept, the AAD will take over. Collectively , they reduce the chances of hostile missile reaching the target to almost 10 %. Now, enemy has a finite number of nukes ( let's say the number is 150 at the time of nuclear exchange ). So, in the absence of BMD shield, 150 Indian cities would've been converted into nuclear mushrooms. But due to the BMD shield, enemy would've to launch 10 nukes at the same target in order to be certain that one of them hit. This way, the number of targets goes down drastically from 150 to 15. 135 cities that wouldve been nuked otherwise, have now been saved. That my friends, is the beauty of BMD shield. If I have to choose between losing everything and losing 10%, I would take the second option each time. Its just cold logic. BTW, in the above example, if we do a little tweak and consider the interceptors to be 80 % effective instead of 70% , the chances of enemy missiles hitting their target further reduce to 4% from 10%, one out of 25 missiles will hit. only six cities will be lost.. SEE HOW IT WORKS?

Agreed, but I think ABM also works in more intangible ways.

That is - it puts the doubts in the minds of the aggressors! No matter how low the probability of interception is, Pakistani planners can never be sure if any one of their missile is going to successfully destroy its intended target or not. And as far as India or the rest of the world is concerned, every Nuclear missile attack - no matter whether the missile itself was successfully intercepted or not - is going to be retaliated with a massive and disproportionate Nuclear and/or Conventional response.

That, I think, is a very powerful deterrent. I will not make a first strike against a much more powerful enemy if I am not 100% sure that it will kill/cripple my enemy.

Coming to the question of launching a volley of missiles, then we are talking about a dooms day scenario and all bets are off anyway. India, with or without the support of the rest of the world, would have a field day against qualitatively and quantitatively inferior conventional forces of Pakistan.

 

[Samrat420]

Agreed, but I think ABM also works in more intangible ways.

That is - it puts the doubts in the minds of the aggressors! No matter how low the probability of interception is, Pakistani planners can never be sure if any one of their missile is going to successfully destroy its intended target or not. And as far as India or the rest of the world is concerned, every Nuclear missile attack - no matter whether the missile itself was successfully intercepted or not - is going to be retaliated with a massive and disproportionate Nuclear and/or Conventional response.

That, I think, is a very powerful deterrent. I will not make a first strike against a much more powerful enemy if I am not 100% sure that it will kill/cripple my enemy.

Coming to the question of launching a volley of missiles, then we are talking about a dooms day scenario and all bets are off anyway. India, with or without the support of the rest of the world, would have a field day against qualitatively and quantitatively inferior conventional forces of Pakistan.

Yup.. Very true.. And what comes out of this new realization of vulnerability is the need to get back the capability that has been blunted by the ABM shield. If you know that only 1 out of your 10 missiles is likely to hit the target, then in order to get your original destructive capability back, you'll have to build and maintain 10 times more missiles than what you currently have in your arsenal. This is the path that many Pakistanis are actually suggesting now -- Overwhelm the ABM with more missiles than it can handle. If the Pak Military planners decide to take this approach, then they would be falling right into the trap - A economy-shattering arms race. Just what the evil baniya wanted..

 

[AUz]

Saudi and Turkey. Lol. Who cares? Think US. Think Britain. Think France. All world powers. Turkey and Saudi are American lackeys.

You think Saudis are American lackeys and Britain/French aren't?!!

France/Britain are pretty irrelevant on world stage.

Saudis are much bigger global player than France/Brits etc. Saudi influence in global energy-economics system is more consequential than any British/French influence today.

Saudis can, and have, reset the underpinnings of global economic order at will---using their energy domination is a geopolitical tool against powers like Russia and its allies like Iran.

What can French/British do on their own against any major power? Zilch.

And you haven't "turned" America "against" us. You're a nobody. Irrelevant backward country with history of being ruled and dominated by superior Muslims and Westerners.

You can make U.S change its mind and alliances?

Great!

Really!!Saudi and Turkey??!!You mean those couple of little American lackeys??Who the hell in this whole wide world gives a single flying fuckk about them??You are trying too hard kid,take some rest or else you gunna get a heart attack some day!!

Only kid here is you

Read the above reply incorporated in this post.

Saudis are far, far more influential players in global financial and energy markets than 90% of the world, including india.

What influence/cards india has? Nothing. Literally nothing. All you have is a big market that westerners want to exploit by selling their products to you. That's all.

While Saudi owns more wealth and financial assets in West alone than entire indian GDP

Hell, Saudis own near a trillion $ in U.S treasury bonds alone.

Talking about U.S lackey--that's such a weak position to take. U.S is undisputed superpower of the Earth. In that sense, nobody can escape the title of "u.s lackeys" since everybody (including Russia/China) follow U.S order in terms of economics and financial base of their nations..

But each country isn't lackey of nobody and have indepedent policies--which includes Saudis.

Pakistan has more, and superior allies in International system than india has.

China alone is a more consequential ally of ours than ANY of your ally... (U.S is a mutal ally of india and Pak and will only use both for interests. So don't count it).

What else you have? Russia?

Pakistan has deep alliances/brotherhood with wider Islamic World.

Saudis guaranteed 5-year energy supply to Pak for free in the aftermath of nuclear blasts.

Tell me one such example where india has such reliable and deep friendship/brotherhood bond with any nation? Nope, you aint have one cuz unlike Pakistan--which is a part of a global Islamic Civilization--india is a irrelevant backwater of the world with only "official" relationships with outside world but no deep and time tested alliances and bonds of brotherhood.

Even at that, we have completely contained hindu-istan within its useless land mark..and hindu-stan's access to Central Asia was cut-off when we conquered Kashmir regions adjacent to Central Asia. Himalayas form a natural barrier in the North.

All you have is Bangladesh and Nepal etc as your land contacts

poor hindus

 

[Hellfire]

So much hate
you quoted me frist
I dont care you are worrie or not

Sorry ... only the first line of my post was for you .... the remaining was from an unrelated post on different thread and got mixed up as multi quotes, which I did not see and was posted in your reply .....

my apologies for the goof up

 

[باپ]

https://defence.pk/threads/should-pakistan-go-for-emp-burst-devices-and-jamming-technologies.71224/

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

You think Saudis are American lackeys and Britain/French aren't?!!

France/Britain are pretty irrelevant on world stage.

Saudis are much bigger global player than France/Brits etc. Saudi influence in global energy-economics system is more consequential than any British/French influence today.

Saudis can, and have, reset the underpinnings of global economic order at will---using their energy domination is a geopolitical tool against powers like Russia and its allies like Iran.

What can French/British do on their own against any major power? Zilch.

And you haven't "turned" America "against" us. You're a nobody. Irrelevant backward country with history of being ruled and dominated by superior Muslims and Westerners.

You can make U.S change its mind and alliances?

Great!



Only kid here is you

Read the above reply incorporated in this post.

Saudis are far, far more influential players in global financial and energy markets than 90% of the world, including india.

What influence/cards india has? Nothing. Literally nothing. All you have is a big market that westerners want to exploit by selling their products to you. That's all.

While Saudi owns more wealth and financial assets in West alone than entire indian GDP

Hell, Saudis own near a trillion $ in U.S treasury bonds alone.

Talking about U.S lackey--that's such a weak position to take. U.S is undisputed superpower of the Earth. In that sense, nobody can escape the title of "u.s lackeys" since everybody (including Russia/China) follow U.S order in terms of economics and financial base of their nations..

But each country isn't lackey of nobody and have indepedent policies--which includes Saudis.

Pakistan has more, and superior allies in International system than india has.

China alone is a more consequential ally of ours than ANY of your ally... (U.S is a mutal ally of india and Pak and will only use both for interests. So don't count it).

What else you have? Russia?

Pakistan has deep alliances/brotherhood with wider Islamic World.

Saudis guaranteed 5-year energy supply to Pak for free in the aftermath of nuclear blasts.

Tell me one such example where india has such reliable and deep friendship/brotherhood bond with any nation? Nope, you aint have one cuz unlike Pakistan--which is a part of a global Islamic Civilization--india is a irrelevant backwater of the world with only "official" relationships with outside world but no deep and time tested alliances and bonds of brotherhood.

Even at that, we have completely contained hindu-istan within its useless land mark..and hindu-stan's access to Central Asia was cut-off when we conquered Kashmir regions adjacent to Central Asia. Himalayas form a natural barrier in the North.

All you have is Bangladesh and Nepal etc as your land contacts

poor hindus

POTM! Excellent Read. Completely and totally agree.