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India lost in Afghan endgame.

Talk on facts not on rhetoric....please give me a sound reasoning why the tribals of pakistan and its fauj attacked raja hari singh's kashmir immediately after independence?

Illusion this has been debunked over and over again. It was the Second World War vets from AJK, who formed the irregular forces who attacked Hari Singh and the Dogras. My grandfather and literately our entire older generation were part of those forces. The tribals saw no action in AJK. They did raid into what is now Indian administered Kashmir. Pakistan's army joined the fight at a far later stage.
 
India lost in Afghan endgame

By Kanwal Sibal

Issue Courtesy: Mail Today | Date : 27 Aug , 2013

The situation in Afghanistan is full of uncertainties and the prospects of India&[HASHTAG]#8217[/HASHTAG];s neighbourhood becoming even more difficult for us are real. We have little control over the situation in Afghanistan, however popular we may be with its government and people. We have invested considerable political and financial capital in Afghanistan for protecting our longer term interests in the region, but adequate returns are not guaranteed.

Afghanistan has been a conflict zone for over three decades now. To our misfortune it became a cold war battleground between the Soviet Union and the US, with the result that both an extremist version of Islam and Pakistan became powerful actors in shaping developments there under the US lead. Until then, Pakistan was not a dominant factor in Afghanistan internally and externally. Later, as US attention moved towards Iraq, Pakistan saw an opportunity to control Afghanistan strategically by using Islamic fanaticism embodied by the Taliban as a tool.

Hare & Hounds

The deliberate Islamisation of Pakistan by Zia-ul-Haq prepared a favourable ground for the creation of the Taliban under Benazir Bhutto&[HASHTAG]#8217[/HASHTAG];s civilian government. The nurturing of extremist religious groups by the Pakistan military for terrorist attacks against India was another facet of the growing Islamization of Pakistan&[HASHTAG]#8217[/HASHTAG];s society and the practical use of these forces for political ends, as in Afghanistan&[HASHTAG]#8217[/HASHTAG];s case.

Religious fanatics in our region gained further force with Al Qaida&[HASHTAG]#8217[/HASHTAG];s entry on the back of the Taliban. These forces overplayed their hand in attacking the US on September 11, inviting an American military riposte that ousted the Taliban from power. That Osama Laden got refuge in Pakistan for many years in different places points to the existence of an effective network of Islamist cells in Pakistan, which raises concerns for the future. When, with Taliban&[HASHTAG]#8217[/HASHTAG];s ouster, US attention turned towards Iraq for the second time, Pakistan once again saw an opportunity to regain its lost ground in Afghanistan through the Taliban groups it continued sheltering on its territory.

With Taliban groups targeting NATO forces from safe-havens in Pakistan, US pressure on Pakistan to control these groups was inevitable. This exposed the inherent contradiction in Pakistan&[HASHTAG]#8217[/HASHTAG];s posture on religious extremism and terrorism, with the Pakistan state and society, at one level, nurturing these forces, while, at another level, acting against them under external constraint. This policy of running with the hare and hunting with the hound has exposed Pakistan to accusations of duplicity and double-faced policies by its western supporters, a discovery India made years earlier. But this awakening has not brought about any drastic change in the West&[HASHTAG]#8217[/HASHTAG];s handling either of Pakistan per se or its destabilizing ambitions in Afghanistan.

The Third Time

The irony from India&[HASHTAG]#8217[/HASHTAG];s point of view is that having fortified the virus of Islamism in the region and then having combated it at great human, financial and military cost, the US and the West are once again reaching out to the same forces, this time not to defeat a cold war rival but to cover up their own retreat with a veneer of semi-success. The accommodation of the Taliban in the mid-1990s was for immediate economic allurements, with no concern that such obscurantist forces would spread terror to the US. The US overlooked the problematic aspects of Pakistan&[HASHTAG]#8217[/HASHTAG];s conduct because of tepid India-US relations. Pakistan was a useful balancing factor.

Today India and the US have a strategic partnership. The US has a grand vision of linking Central Asia and South Asia through a new silk road, with energy projects like TAPI as a centre-piece. It seems to want to repeat its previous mis-reading of Taliban&[HASHTAG]#8217[/HASHTAG];s Islamic fanaticism by believing that its commitment to break links with Al Qaida would protect the US from future terrorist attacks. This will be the third time that the US will take Afghanistan off its radar screen, benefiting once again the Taliban with its religious ideology and Pakistan with its strategic ambitions while compromising India&[HASHTAG]#8217[/HASHTAG];s interests despite the so-called transformation of India-US ties.

In a hard place

India will be hard put to secure its interests in Afghanistan in the conditions under which the US intends to withdraw. The Afghan security forces may be able to prevent an outright Taliban military victory, but providing security all over the country against Taliban depredations would be outside their capacity, given their present ability to stage terrorist attacks even in highly protected areas such as Kabul. Sending more security personnel to protect our projects is not a solution.

Though we have a strategic partnership agreement with Afghanistan that provides also for arms support, even if we were to step up our training assistance considerably and provide some combat equipment, it would not substitute for the Afghan army&[HASHTAG]#8217[/HASHTAG];s lack of air support, heavy weaponry and intelligence capability. Pakistan is determined to neutralize India&[HASHTAG]#8217[/HASHTAG];s influence in Afghanistan, as the attack on our Jalalabad consulate indicates unfortunately. It is allergic to the idea of an India-friendly Afghan government. It finds it intolerable that we train Afghan military officers in India when their offers to provide such training are being rebuffed. Nawaz Sharif has begun voicing the charge that India is behind some disturbances in Pakistan.

We can help reduce the threats to Afghanistan&[HASHTAG]#8217[/HASHTAG];s internal stability in consultation with Iran, Russia and the Central Asian states. China cannot be relied upon because in any scenario it will be with Pakistan and leverage its influence with the Taliban to protect Chinese interests. Pakistan is central to China&[HASHTAG]#8217[/HASHTAG];s strategy to economically exploit Afghanistan and link it and neighbouring Central Asian states to its upgraded Karakoram highway connected to Gwadar. All in all, our stakes in Afghanistan are high but our means to protect them insufficient and uncertain.

India lost in Afghan endgame » Indian Defence Review

When I said this Indian members here shot me down and I predicted this in 2014. Copper mines and infrastructure programs are what won in the end.
 
AGain you cannot answer on "let's start from beginning" statement/question of yours

So you jump to 1947-1948.

As I said, you are not here to have a sane discussion. you are here to prove that you know it all.

And thus refuse to accept your utter lack of knowledge coupled with extreme prejudice based on sectarianism.

This is the attitude I see among Islamist tribals.

Sadly so many Bharatis suffer from the same disease.

Really really sadly!



Bhai Jaan Ji

My heart cries out for Pundits.
Same as 100s and 1000s of Muslim Kashmiris kicked out from the valley.

Why do you think I'd talk about one and ignore the other.

Never!


Muslim Kashmiris is still living a glorious life in Valley . Some Pundits in Valley is still living a fearful and suspicious life about their neighbouring Muslim families.
@SarthakGanguly will explain about that.
Those separatists clowns enjoying the full facillities of GoI including AIIMS .
And also didnt have any shame to fulfill their own family prosperity in the name of Kashmir cause .
We have Muslims in other parts of India .Even they couldnt forgive the atrocities of majority Kashmiris against innocent minorities.
 
AGain you cannot answer on "let's start from beginning" statement/question of yours

So you jump to 1947-1948.

As I said, you are not here to have a sane discussion. you are here to prove that you know it all.

And thus refuse to accept your utter lack of knowledge coupled with extreme prejudice based on sectarianism.

This is the attitude I see among Islamist tribals.

Sadly so many Bharatis suffer from the same disease.

Really really sadly!

Again rhetoric fauj bhai.

Illusion this has been debunked over and over again. It was the Second World War vets from AJK, who formed the irregular forces who attacked Hari Singh and the Dogras. My grandfather and literately our entire older generation were part of those forces. The tribals saw no action in AJK. They did raid into what is now Indian administered Kashmir. Pakistan's army joined the fight at a far later stage.

view: Did Jinnah know about the Kashmir War? —Ishtiaq Ahmed
 
Muslim Kashmiris is still living a glorious life in Valley . Some Pundits in Valley is still living a fearful and suspicious life about their neighbouring Muslim families.
@SarthakGanguly will explain about that.
Those separatists clowns enjoying the full facillities of GoI including AIIMS .
And also didnt have any shame to fulfill their own family prosperity in the name of Kashmir cause .
We have Muslims in other parts of India .Even they couldnt forgive the atrocities of majority Kashmiris against innocent minorities.


When Nehru disenfranchised moderate Kashmiris, hand picked the likes of Abdullah,

then it was a bad situation where separatists became powerful.

Early 40s had both pundits and muslims united for the cause of Kashmir

But Gandhian policies and shenanigans utterly destroyed it.

Hindu card was played by Nehru-Gandhi without any shame in order to create divisions among Kashmiris.

But you will not read it or hear it in the media today.

Sadly.
 
There was and has been an intellectual tussle between Hamdani and Ahmed.

I was part of the tri-angular discussion between three of us.

But you notice something in this article or Hamdani's thesis,

They are mainly focused on Pakistani side (for good introspection dare I say).

But there were much more important actions being taken by Nehru, Gandhi, and the then Governor General of Bharat aka Looooooooooooooooord Mount Batton.

Why did Gandhi make a hasty visit (the first ever of his life if I am not wrong) to meet Maharaja

What was going on in Punch for the previous 6 months - year

What was Auchenleck saying about the situation.

What did Gen. Gracy do?

What was the said in the writing of the first commandant of Kakul Academy.

What was going on in other princely states throughout the subcontinent.

but most importantly what was the geography of Kashmir? What were the logistics lines before 1952 and After 1952


So how many of you Bharati posters are aware of the significance in Kashmir geography before 1952 and after?

How many?

I wonder how afghans feel about Pakistanis/Indians/Americans referring to their country as a game

Depends!

If you are warlord getting dollars/rupees/rubels. you are happy.

If you are on the receiving end of bullets, obvious you will be unhappy.
 
There was and has been an intellectual tussle between Hamdani and Ahmed.

I was part of the tri-angular discussion between three of us.

But you notice something in this article or Hamdani's thesis,

They are mainly focused on Pakistani side (for good introspection dare I say).

But there were much more important actions being taken by Nehru, Gandhi, and the then Governor General of Bharat aka Looooooooooooooooord Mount Batton.

Why did Gandhi make a hasty visit (the first ever of his life if I am not wrong) to meet Maharaja

What was going on in Punch for the previous 6 months - year

What was Auchenleck saying about the situation.

What did Gen. Gracy do?

What was the said in the writing of the first commandant of Kakul Academy.

What was going on in other princely states throughout the subcontinent.

but most importantly what was the geography of Kashmir? What were the logistics lines before 1952 and After 1952


So how many of you Bharati posters are aware of the significance in Kashmir geography before 1952 and after?

How many?



Depends!

If you are warlord getting dollars/rupees/rubels. you are happy.

If you are on the receiving end of bullets, obvious you will be unhappy.

Actions speaks louder than words. Point is Pakistani tribes and its militia attacked. People meet, people talk - and due process needs to be followed. Not go in for a full fledged attack and conquest. Pakistan did not provide for affairs to be sorted out by due process.
 
Actions speaks louder than words. Point is Pakistani tribes and its militia attacked. People meet, people talk - and due process needs to be followed. Not go in for a full fledged attack and conquest. Pakistan did not provide for affairs to be sorted out by due process.

I listed a serious questions.

Do you have answers for any of these?

Thank you.

feel free to add more if you like.
 

Yes in that same link it clearly talks of the irregular forces of the AJK milita attacking Hari Singh's forces in August, and subsequent events (tribal fighters) happening in October.


Please read Christopher Snedden's renowned work "Kashmir the untold story".


Here are the details of the revolt by the Muslim AJK vets against Hari Singh. They numbered around 90,000.

KASHMIR - THE UNTOLD STORY - Christopher Snedden - Google Books


Here is another academic piece on the subject, although he has taken a few biased sources to form his essay, this part is quite accurate.


The Azad Kashmir militas i.e. now the Azad Kashmir regiment.


The Azad militias attacking in the Jammu region were also met with stiff resistance, andthey achieved their objectives only after some serious fighting. They seized the bordertowns (Bagh, Rawalkot, Rajauri, Beri Pattan) one after the other, surrounded Poonch andcut the Poonch-Jammu road, but by the time they reached Jammu the Indian forces werealready on the move. Jammu remained in Indian hands and subsequently served as the baseof Indian operations in the south.Soon after the attacks commenced (on 24 October), the Azad Kashmir government wasformed under the leadership of Mohamed Ibrahim.

Henceforth two governments existed inthe state, each claiming full jurisdiction over the entire territory

A footnote related to these men.

There were plenty of men who were familiar with weapons and had some combat experience: about 60 000 discharged veterans lived in Kashmir – many of them Muslims



The Tribal fighters i.e. the Meshuds, Wazirs etc.

The general offensive started on two fronts on October 22, 1947 (See Figure 3.):
Five Pathan lashkars (5 000 men) broke into the Kashmir valley from the direction of Abbottabad. The Muslims serving in the Kashmiri state forces mutinied, killed their non-Muslim fellow soldiers and officers and joined the Pathans or the local militias. Theattackers occupied Domel and on the 23rd they destroyed a state forces battalion, but nearUri they met with stiff resistance: the state forces withstood their attacks for a while, thendestroyed the bridge over the Uri River and withdrew towards Baramulla.

THE FIRST INDO-PAKISTANI WAR, 1947-48 | Peter Almos Kiss - Academia.edu






 
When Nehru disenfranchised moderate Kashmiris, hand picked the likes of Abdullah,

then it was a bad situation where separatists became powerful.

Early 40s had both pundits and muslims united for the cause of Kashmir

But Gandhian policies and shenanigans utterly destroyed it.

Hindu card was played by Nehru-Gandhi without any shame in order to create divisions among Kashmiris.

But you will not read it or hear it in the media today.

Sadly.


Hindu card ??
Really??
I agree .Nehru had his own plans.But those allegations of Hindu card was just gross.
Because both these leaders didnt do anything when those radical Muslims slaughtered hundreds of Hindus and Christians in Malabar in the name of Khalifa and Khilafat.
And Gandhi was killed by a Hindu nutjob. Nut job for public.
But those peoples in court room including the Judge couldnt refute or counter the allegations of Godse against Gandhi.Because in sense he was right.Then again ever leaders did their own mistakes ,Consciously and unconsicously .
Abdullah was also another politician.And politicians are the most stipid community in the world.

Those separatists were only looks for their own interests.GoI spends croresfor their luxuries ,agencies across the border spends more than that for them for whining.
Good business .Isnt it ?
Jinnah was also a Separatist ,So the Sheikh Mujibur Rahman.But both of them loved their people and nation so much .They had their own vision for their people and they tried for that through their selfless action.
Can you say the same about those parasites in Kashmir ?I dont think so.

Their motivation was money .From GCC and across the border.
 
You did not answer mine.
you cannot understand the answer without proper context.

....
Because both these leaders didnt do anything when those radical Muslims slaughtered hundreds of Hindus and Christians in Malabar in the name of Khalifa and Khilafat..

Sr Nair

you are mixing time and space of so many different things.

Learn to use proper context please.

So you want to discuss Khilafat movement?

Do you?

if so you know that Gandhi / Congress supported that movement?

And do you know who opposed it?
 
you cannot understand the answer without proper context.



Sr Nair

you are mixing time and space of so many different things.

Learn to use proper context please.

So you want to discuss Khilafat movement?

Do you?

if so you know that Gandhi / Congress supported that movement?

And do you know who opposed it?


I was replying to your Hindu card allegation .And their response to the slaughtering was a proof about their mentality.
 
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