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India-Japan US-2i amphibian search & rescue aircraft deal back on track

But which countries have expressed interest in US-2?

After Japan we will be the largest operators of this aircraft. Is it Vietnam they want to sell it to? Or Australia?
I still fail to see the utility of this aircraft, For the price, there could have been a different set of acquisitions for the Navy, may be a amphibious transport dock or the much needed Heli's , or even a couple od replacement Kilo subs that were lost.
 
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Apparently you don't understand what "self-restraint" means. An overeating kid should practice self-restraint but it doesn't mean he has to stop eating.

There are no absolutes. There are just varying levels of different countries. In the same way, we're buying weapons from abroad doesn't mean all indigenous production has been ceased. We definitely are building what we can, buying what we can...and are continuously engaged in increasing the value of the former.
 
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There are no absolutes. There are just varying levels of different countries. In the same way, we're buying weapons from abroad doesn't mean all indigenous production has been ceased. We definitely are building what we can, buying what we can...and are continuously engaged in increasing the value of the former.
True. Just that some external difficulties China faces help focus more on "increasing the value of the former", while India is more relaxed.
 
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True. Just that some external difficulties China faces help focus more on "increasing the value of the former", while India is more relaxed.

Agreed on that.

In areas where foreign cooperation/purchase is not possible - but still the requirement is present, we'll have to work to deliver and eventually we will. That's how the whole ballistic missile program developed. The same is somewhat true in the case of ISRO as well. It was only because foreign sale of cryogenic engines was denied, that ISRO set out to make our own.

However, if the foreign options were available, ISRO would have been a fool to turn them away (infact we did buy Russian cryos when we had the chance).

In the end, it's the meeting of operational goals (in this case, launching heavier satellites) that is the requirement that scientists/engineers work for. The means of getting there - you can make use of whatever option you have available at the moment.

Development of indigenous equipment is a nice thing to do - but in this day & age, turning away available options merely for nationalistic reasons is simply not a workable process. Even during the Cold War, only US & USSR were actually capable of developing everything they need 100% in-house - this was not done merely for nationalistic/pride reasons, but had operational implications.

Today, even Russia & US have a level of international cooperation in defence & space.
 
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Agreed on that.

In areas where foreign cooperation/purchase is not possible - but still the requirement is present, we'll have to work to deliver and eventually we will. That's how the whole ballistic missile program developed. The same is somewhat true in the case of ISRO as well. It was only because foreign sale of cryogenic engines was denied, that ISRO set out to make our own.

However, if the foreign options were available, ISRO would have been a fool to turn them away (infact we did buy Russian cryos when we had the chance).

In the end, it's the meeting of operational goals (in this case, launching heavier satellites) that is the requirement that scientists/engineers work for. The means of getting there - you can make use of whatever option you have available at the moment.

Development of indigenous equipment is a nice thing to do - but in this day & age, turning away available options merely for nationalistic reasons is simply not a workable process. Even during the Cold War, only US & USSR were actually capable of developing everything they need 100% in-house - this was not done merely for nationalistic/pride reasons, but had operational implications.

Today, even Russia & US have a level of international cooperation in defence & space.
My guess is that when India cannot find external help, very likely India can do it by herself and do it very well. Even when India doesn't do it very well in first several tries, at least the attempts will help create a capable, energetic and ever learning team. Such a team is far more valuable than any imported technologies.
 
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Incorrect. Atleast the deals being negotiated since the last 5 years have almost everything needed to ensure Indian industry gets the most it can out of even foreign procurement.

Indigenous alternatives are NOT AVAILABLE in a majority of cases. In such circumstances it is advisable to take advantage of the sources you have in order to meet your operational goals. Even Russia & China do this without fail.

If you wish to go by "indigenous weapons or no weapons", your projects will never take off. Thanks to the fact that we're able to procure from abroad, we atleast manage to get partly indigenous equipment into service (i.e. Arjun, Tejas, ships etc.). If we refused to buy GE F404 and decide to stick with indigenous Kaveri from the start, who knows when Tejas would be ready??

If the Chinese decided not to buy foreign engines (AL-31F) from whatever sources they had, how long would it have taken them to get WS-10 ready for J-10s and J-11s? China would still be flying J-7s today if they really followed the "indigenous or nothing" policy. That's just retarded - no sane person or country would achieve any measure of success that way.

Wrong. Most of the deals signed in the last years are SCREWDRIVER technology. NOTHING of value has been transferred to Indian industry.

Indigenous alternatives become AVAILABLE ONLY when you FUND it and allow it to DEVELOP. NECESSITY is the MOTHER of INVENTION. They do not become magially available just because the Defence forces Wish it.

Your operational goals have to be in line with our local capacity. There is no point in having an operational goal to go to the next galaxy if you cannot build a star ship.

In my local ligo, there is an old saying. "You cannot grow a pig hoping that your neighbours have enough shit". Yet that is exactly what the Defence forces are doing. Building operational requirements based on what the neighbour has. Their operational requirement has to be based on what WE HAVE.

Building a jet engine is a 40 year project and program. Not a 10 year project. And it needs focus, investment, support and infrastructure. So unless the Defence forces build them, there is no genie in the bottle to make it all happen just because they WISH it.

One way to counter a conventional build up is by unconventional strategy. That is why pakistan has India by the balls and India army is forced to make impotent and laughable comments.


Not at all - the MoD is doing everything in it's power to ensure that the local industry gets the maximum benefit out of the foreign procurement being made. That is what the whole local production is all about!

Investment, jobs, skill-development, production contracts to local suppliers etc. - I am willing to say that a deal like Rafale actually creates just as much economic benefit for the local industry as a "Indian" plane like Tejas did. Perhaps even more.

And when I say industry, I mean actual material benefit - purely economic or infrastructure-wise.

Ofcourse development of Tejas provided us with knowledge about the R&D cycle which no foreign vendor is likely to share, but we are talking about actual industrial benefits here.

The MoD is doing jack $hit. They have no clue about what needs to be done, or how to go about doing it.

If they did then Local production would NOT have been the focus, LOCAL RESEARCH would have been the focus. And not just the DRDO, ALL Universities would have been roped in and wold have been involved in National building. That is what the US, USSR and China did.

Rafale ToT is just paperware for now. I don't want to waste time in useless speculation. But at 20% offset, all it will do is create a few body panels, maybe a landing gear, tyres, displays and maybe a few avionics.

By now work should have started on a second engine. Maybe even by a private company with govt. funding or tax rebates or land grants or easy loans. But you will never find such out of box thinking from the MoD.


The eventual aim of the MoD is obviously to create self-reliance. However, it is a not a one-step process. Licensed production is just a step toward that goal.

In the meantime - look at the condition & work ethic of the state-run agencies in India. They are not profit-driven enterprises. They do not have any incentive to work, meet schedules or deliver products. They will be paid their salaries & pension regardless of their performance. Is this the kind of agency you want to entrust the defence production of India to?

I wouldn't do that.

If you want to achieve self-sufficiency in defence production, I'm sorry but the current crop of government companies are not getting you anywhere. Private companies are the way forward.

That said, it's advisable to pursue procurement on a economic basis than a purely nationalistic one.


License production is just a step in creating more blue coller workers and jobs, not technology.

Our Defence factors are just that, FACTORIES, not Research organisation and most times they have no R&D wing primarily because there is NO INCENTIVE to have one.

Create the Incentive and the organisations will follow suite. Its the MoD that has to create the incentive and it does not have to be threat all the time.
 
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I still fail to see the utility of this aircraft, For the price, there could have been a different set of acquisitions for the Navy, may be a amphibious transport dock or the much needed Heli's , or even a couple od replacement Kilo subs that were lost.

Or the more pressing need of Chetak replacements. Navy and coast guard have been operating these now almost to their end lives. A faster Naval Light Utility Helicopter program or even a direct G2G program to build Airbus Panthers in India for Navy and Coast Guard should be the priority...

These Japanese aircrafts are in the column of " Wishes " right now, not in " Necessity ".
 
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I still fail to see the utility of this aircraft, For the price, there could have been a different set of acquisitions for the Navy, may be a amphibious transport dock or the much needed Heli's , or even a couple od replacement Kilo subs that were lost.

SAR, deep MARCOs penetration by water, water extraction after a sabotage mission etc etc.
 
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You do not seem to understand that its not only Requirement that drive procurement, its also CAPACITY.

We are draining our resources to buy foreign goods. Weakening our own economy, technological base and knowledge base while strengthening our competitors.

Its a Myopic tactic devoid of any real Strategy to truly make us strong.

Our Forces are PART of our system, not external to it. They need to be integrated better into India, not pretend to be an outside force like what the British had created. 70 years of Independence is enough time for the Indian Army to shed its british skin and attitude.

Local Industry do not need to expense of the military, but the military DEFINITELY should not expand at the cost of the Local industry. Without the local industry, what the hell is the military defending ?

Its one thing to licence technology, quite another one to be a perpetual buyer of technology goods. The Alternative to the US-2i is a freaking Indian built BOAT if India cannot build an aircraft.
We are draining our resources to buy foreign goods. Weakening our own economy, technological base and knowledge base while strengthening our competitors.

How much we are spending on Defence as per our GDP ?
 
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SAR, deep MARCOs penetration by water, water extraction after a sabotage mission etc etc.

Better options for SAR.No doubt about its capabilities , but a dozen of helicopters bought in place of these right now is be more beneficial.

We have 4 major warships on visiting various ports around the world as of today. We have come across various pictures of them , but I have not come across a pic of any of them with their heli.
 
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We are draining our resources to buy foreign goods. Weakening our own economy, technological base and knowledge base while strengthening our competitors.

How much we are spending on Defence as per our GDP ?

Less than 2 % which itself is inadequate. If were to spend around 2.5 % and have a law that mandated that of that 2.4% HAVE to be spent on Indian goods & services then We can not only build up our capability, but will also build our capacity.

The question we need to ask is 'Are you going to war in the next 20 years', if the answer is no, then its time we invest back our hard earned money back into our economy.
 
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Less than 2 % which itself is inadequate. If were to spend around 2.5 % and have a law that mandated that of that 2.4% HAVE to be spent on Indian goods & services then We can not only build up our capability, but will also build our capacity.

The question we need to ask is 'Are you going to war in the next 20 years', if the answer is no, then its time we invest back our hard earned money back into our economy.
ARE U SURE War Will not come to us in next 20 years ?
 
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ARE U SURE War Will not come to us in next 20 years ?

Not if we are competent. War is the last resort of the incompetent.

India in one of the larges nations in the world and is going to become THE largest nation in the world in a few years. NO BODY is stupid enough to militarily attack us in the next 20 years.

Best we can expect is 'Terrorism' and economic warfare.
 
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