India in talks to buy Iron Dome, David's Sling

[Vajra_Yuddh]

Who is talking of defending each and every inch? Why would you even plan to defend a deserted place much less actually defend it?!?

Don't you guys already have s300 and planning for s400?

S-400 was offered to us and so was joint-investment in S-500 but we are already testing a high -altitude IRBM/ICBM interceptor of our own which when comes out will make these systems redundant. (PAD and AAD collectively named(?) Pradyumna-ABM)

The Iron Dome and David's Sling are needed to complement Akash SAMs, SPYDER as well as S-300PU.

 

[ganimi kawa]

I'm not very enthusiastic about iron dome; AFAIK land based version of CIWS like the phalanx is a better solution.

David's sling, though is a very intreresting concept, from design as well as operational PoV. We will benefit from it's anti CM ability.

*Speculation alert*

Will this go the Green pine way?

Added later- what does LR SAM add to this matrix?

 

[dbc]

As far as I know David's Sling is a co-development but Iron Dome is an Israeli development, also where is the point in sanctioning a missile, after we already got it? We don't need spares for it like a figher, or an aircraft would need and we used the Paveway LGB kits that we bought from you during Kargil war too, although you sanctioned us and even delivered faulty parts.

As usual the only thing that's faulty is your argument, Paveway II's weren't faulty it was supplied in 1990 with 'incorrect' parts.
Speaks volumes of IAF's logistics handling skills if it took eight years to discover incompatible parts.

The Mirage 2000 were supplied with Thomson-CSF Laser Designator Pod, known as ‘ATLIS’ which was capable of delivery of Matra 1000 kg LGBs, which were purpose built for destruction of reinforced targets. These weapons were highly capable but were very expensive. It was decided to augment their capability by adding the 1000 lb bomb coupled with Paveway II laser-guided bomb kit. The IAF had ordered a number of these, but they had been supplied with an incorrect part. Because of the nuclear test performed by India, they were on the embargo list and were unable to get the correct parts sent as replacements. Consequently IAF technicians had to remanufacture this part in order to make the Paveway serviceable for use on the Mirage.

The IAF in the Kargil Operations - 1999

Speaking of faulty, you perhaps mean the expensive French Durandal runway denial bombs that IAF discovered failed when a batch was tested before expiry.

Pre acquisition trials were conducted in France and since the bomb was so expensive IAF waited for the life of the first lot of bombs to nearly expire before testing them. Three Jaguars unsuccessfully attempted to release the bombs in front of the Defense minister, COAS and other top officials.

Transfer of Technology (TOT): Myth or reality?

Finally, if you think Israel will not sanction India when asked to do so by the United States then you're seriously deluded. Iron Dome is funded by the United States under the United States-Israel Missile Defense Cooperation and Support Act. Iron Dome isn't an exception a majority of Israeli systems are co-developed, funded or contain US origin technology.

 

[dbc]

Point taken, But we are not buying arrow-2 or s-300.

India is a big country and cannot defend all our coast lines and borders with these systems, which is very costly.

Except point defense for vital installations, this system is not serving the purpose for India unlike the manufacturer.

Rgds,

I personally feel the acquisition of Iron Dome represents a shift in Indian planning. Having establish conventional superiority, defense planner anticipate unconventional attacks. Faced with overwhelming conventional superiority your smaller neighbors may resort to unconventional means in the event of war.We all saw the mayhem wrought on by a handful of terrorist on 11/26, now imagine the devastation a much larger group on a similar mission can cause.

Iron Dome is designed to be an effective area defense system, versatile enough to be employed in defense of military installations or civilian infrastructure.

Weapons of the future and this includes the F-35 is designed to be versatile enough to be effective both on a traditional battlefield and in urban warfare. The F-35, can take out an unsuspecting roof top sniper or provide close air support in congested urban setting. Weapons of war evolve, the nations that are ahead of the curve often emerge victorious.

 

[Dash]

Finally, if you think Israel will not sanction India when asked to do so by the United States then you're seriously deluded. Iron Dome is funded by the United States under the United States-Israel Missile Defense Cooperation and Support Act. Iron Dome isn't an exception a majority of Israeli systems are co-developed, funded or contain US origin technology.

Doesnt this contradict whatever you have told in MRCA thread regarding India and US deals on MRCA fighters???...

 

[sancho]

Speaks volumes of IAF's logistics handling skills if it took eight years to discover incompatible parts.

Strange, when you deliver the faulty, oh sorry incorrect parts, how could it be IAF mistake?

Finally, if you think Israel will not sanction India when asked to do so by the United States then you're seriously deluded. Iron Dome is funded by the United States under the United States-Israel Missile Defense Cooperation and Support Act. Iron Dome isn't an exception a majority of Israeli systems are co-developed, funded or contain US origin technology.

LOL, just like Dash pointed out, you are contradicting yourself here and just shows that there is indeed a point of not relying too much on the US.

 

[dbc]

Strange, when you deliver the faulty, oh sorry incorrect parts, how could it be IAF mistake?



LOL, just like Dash pointed out, you are contradicting yourself here and just shows that there is indeed a point of not relying too much on the US.

It took the IAF eight years to discover Paveway II could not be dropped from their Mirage 2000? Nearly as long to find out expensive French weapons did not work? Professional outfits don't leave much to chance, in this regard the PAF is well ahead of IAF.

As for Dash's point, if you believe the United States is unreliable; you mustn't rely on Israel either - is that too hard for you to understand?

 

[satishkumarcsc]

DBC....didn't US stop funding the Arrow 3 missile and stuck with the SM-3 missile?

 

[Vimana1]

Arrow 3 is now funded by US after pressure from Israel and Jewish lobby

 

[sancho]

It took the IAF eight years to discover Paveway II could not be dropped from their Mirage 2000?

Please, you really faking everything now! Mirage could drop Paveway with the correct parts, that the US didn't delivered! So accept it that it was fault of US not ours!

As for Dash's point, if you believe the United States is unreliable; you mustn't rely on Israel either - is that too hard for you to understand?

Strange again, although the US put sanctions on us, Israel didn't!

Although US sanctioned further Paveway sells to us, Israel helped us with the integration and correct parts!

You can only pressure Israel not to sell us things, but when we already got it, you can't do anything and Israel proved often enough to be reliable to India, ALTHOUGH the US is a major alley to Pakistan!

So keep on faking the facts, but denying, but it is as it is, Israel has nothing to prove to us, but the US have!

 

[dbc]

Please, you really faking everything now! Mirage could drop Paveway with the correct parts, that the US didn't delivered! So accept it that it was fault of US not ours!



Strange again, although the US put sanctions on us, Israel didn't!

Although US sanctioned further Paveway sells to us, Israel helped us with the integration and correct parts!

You can only pressure Israel not to sell us things, but when we already got it, you can't do anything and Israel proved often enough to be reliable to India, ALTHOUGH the US is a major alley to Pakistan!

So keep on faking the facts, but denying, but it is as it is, Israel has nothing to prove to us, but the US have!

Please, you really faking everything now! Mirage could drop Paveway with the correct parts, that the US didn't delivered! So accept it that it was fault of US not ours!

Can you prove IAF did not order the wrong parts to begin with?
Are you able to prove that the Paveway interface for the Mirage was even supplied by the US to begin with - why would a US vendor supply an interface to a French plane? Of course it is the IAF's fault you don't wait for war to test your ability to deliver munitions. They had eight years to test the delivery of Paveway's - what were they doing for eight years?

If the IAF had such a big issue with Paveway's why did they begin license manufacturing of Paveway's in India post Kargil?

As usual you have no understanding of geo politics and once again you're off in la la land - how old are you?

Again, Israel's very existence hinges on US support. They will not go against US interest, case in point is Phalcon sale to China.

Israeli assistance is sought to get around US laws or constraints imposed by foreign relations. In 1999,India would not have received US weapons from Israel without a US wink and nod.

There are no facts to fake silly child just realities that you choose not to acknowledge.

GoI is unconcerned about US sanctions this is abundantly clear from India's procurement of US systems like P8-I, C-17, Hercules, Javelin and more. So you can harp about sanctions and unreliability of US as a weapons supplier, but reality is US is well placed to displace Russia as India's top weapons supplier.

 

[KS]

but reality is US is well placed to displace Russia as India's top weapons supplier.

<optimist mode on > Will not happen atleast for the next half-century
</optimist mode off >

 

[Dash]

As for Dash's point, if you believe the United States is unreliable; you mustn't rely on Israel either - is that too hard for you to understand?

That is a common misunderstanding you have, especially US thinks Israel is their puppet??...is that too hard for you to understand???....

You know where India and US are heading these days, so looking at the partnership one would simply say we are partners, but not allies.
We dont have any issue with US and its citizens, however in business (the partnership business with US), you will allways be apprehnsive of US action, which is less in case we are allies...

In todays scenario, we are appealing US to give us the equal status as allies, fior which work has already started. but until then this belief will havr to be there.....from a business and security point of view.

And as far as Israel is concerned, US has close to little knowledge abt the depth of the relationship. and if you think US knows everything abt Indo-Israeli relationship, then....I dont have to say anything...

 

[Kinetic]

David's Sling.... I seriously love this missile. I think when deployed it will be the best anti-cruise missile in the world. It can work against rocket and MLRS as well.

 

[Kinetic]

S-400 was offered to us and so was joint-investment in S-500 but we are already testing a high -altitude IRBM/ICBM interceptor of our own which when comes out will make these systems redundant. (PAD and AAD collectively named(?) Pradyumna-ABM)

The Iron Dome and David's Sling are needed to complement Akash SAMs, SPYDER as well as S-300PU.

Dude PAD/PDV/AAD/AD-A/AD-2 can destroy fighters or cruise missiles at long ranges like S-400 but they can go much much higher altitude than S-400 to destroy incoming BMs. All these are dedicated anti ballistic missiles.

Altitude of different systems....

S-400 30km

AAD 30km
PAD 80KM
PDV 130km
AD-1 250km
AD-2 ?