India has raised the stakes

[whocares]

develepero again brings up a salient issue, thank you.


to counter it is difficult, it will take guts.

there is a sizable pakistani population in the uk, as individuals we should always take the opportunity to correctly defend pakistan and correctly criticise pakistan


india being the western darling is not new, its been slowly happening in the 90's and has amassed great pace over the last 5 years in particular

the scenario is such that india is now in the "us" camp and pakistan is in the "them" camp

in fact every muslim nation is essentially in the "them" camp because islam is basically the biggest ideological enemy of the west and like it or not thats what alot of western white people have in their mind due to the mass conditioning in the media, so we are now enemies by default, or to put it another way we can never be truly friends, thats the way the cookie has crumbled.

its time to take the head out of sand, think pragmatically and smartly

don't blame everything on the media. the sheer numbers in which muslims in the west refuse to integrate have a lot to do with it.

don't give me the bull **** that 80% of them functionally integrate and 60% feel western.

thats still atleast 20% who want nothing to do with the west apart from their welfare and employment opportunity and a sizeable chunk of this are actively seditious.

 

[r3alist]

don't blame everything on the media. the sheer numbers in which muslims in the west refuse to integrate have a lot to do with it.

don't give me the bull **** that 80% of them functionally integrate and 60% feel western.

thats still atleast 20% who want nothing to do with the west apart from their welfare and employment opportunity and a sizeable chunk of this are actively seditious.

your figures seem meaningless to me, so i will ignore them

"integrate" is subjective word, does it have defined parameters?

what does one need to do to be regarded as "integrated"


secondly there is another issue, britains own immigration policy simply means that you have a patchwork of "alien" cultures and people who will struggle to integrate because that is not the reason they have come to the nation in the first place, therefore ghetto's are created


in that sense britain is responsible for its own woes, ultimately they let these people in, to blame them is to create a straw man argument

if people are not likely to integrate why let them in?

if you let them in knowing this why complain?

having done this if you vilify these same people what is your motive for doing this?

 

[deckingraj]

How is saying we don't care for their flawed and single minded perspective being brash?

With all due respect what else you can do??? Can you imagine such comments being passed on any other country especially the one who is an ally????

We are being supported even by England while he was spewing diplomatic garbage for local consumption.

Local comsumption??? PM of "Great Britain" on an offical visit to a foreign land passing such comments and that too repeatedly during various press conferences is for local consumption???? May i ask why is there so much hue and cry in Pakistan when these comments are merely for "Local Consumption"???

It is business as usual till someones needs are met. We are friends only because of a common goal and that has been proved multiple times.

Friends don't say such things out in open and that too when one of them is sitting in an adversary land....As far as common goal is concerned then has anything changed??? This is true for all relationships...This was true in the past, today and will remain true in the future as well.....There has to be some convergence of goals for any relationship....B/W cameroon repeatedly said we will do whatever we can to help them(Pak) fight terrorism...He is only assertive regarding accountability as far as terrorism effecting them whose source is from Pakistan....Pretty strong words and clearly a shift from policy in the past....As far as business as usual is concerened then you never know what all has changed/will change or perhaps won't change at all in the background....However can you or I deny that we all were surprised at such a harsh critism coming from an ally and that too when in India?????

All the supposed friendship's in the world are for a common goal now.

It was always true and will remain true forever....Nothing has changed in this philosofy....

You can list the reasons why America and Russia would want to share India's friendship, for the time being.

If i am getting it right then perhaps you are pointing to our lucrative markets...right??? It this is true then you are taking a very simplistic view of the whole scenario.....There are many other lucrative markets in the world but all have not managed to get both palestine and israel in the friend list.....Managing Iran and US even after having so called lucrative market is not an easy task.....Getting Russia on board with US due to lucrative markets is not an easy task....Notching trade of worth $60 Billion with a potential rival(read china) is not an easy task...Anyways let me share with you some very important steps that GOI took which is reaping benefits now....

- NAM : Thanks to Pt. Jawaharlal Nehru vision we followed NAM.....We never joined camps and thus are able to manage good relations with Both Russia and US at the same time.....Can you suggest how many countries in the world manage to get such relations after joinining any of these sides??? This NAM helped us achieve this...otherwise lucrative or no lucrative markets making good relations with arch rivals at the same time is a very difficult task....

- Recognition of Israel - In order to appease Arab World India did not recognize Israel for a long time....but in 1991 common sense prevailed and we realized that being friend to both we can help better then being on one side....Even though it looks diffcult yet relationships can be maintained on bilateral term....

- Opening up the markets - All the equaltions change dramatically if you are economically strong....We brought in the reforms and are worlds second fastest growing economy....This with some great initiatives in the past have managed to win us lot of friends....

- Engagement with China : SOme very positive engagement with China has helped us keep our eastern border very quite....We both have trade relations worth $60 Billion and are at a poinjt where conflict is going to hurt both....In short the only way forward is more engagement and resolutions of issues peacefully....

- Democracy : Last but not the least we have managed to remain democratic throughout our life and the way things are going i can very easily say "will remain so"....The democratic set-up(even though a bit flawed but then democracy needs time to mature) helped us win lot of friends.....

Now don't you think there are some great diplomatic initiatives by GOI and we are reaping benefits of those now???? In short even if you become a very lucrative market today there is lot of work that Pakistan would have to do to achieve what India has managed by her diplomacy......because relationships are a little(read a lot) more then import and exports of finished goods!!!!

 

[whocares]

your figures seem meaningless to me, so i will ignore them

"integrate" is subjective word, does it have defined parameters?

what does one need to do to be regarded as "integrated"


secondly there is another issue, britains own immigration policy simply means that you have a patchwork of "alien" cultures and people who will struggle to integrate because that is not the reason they have come to the nation in the first place, therefore ghetto's are created


in that sense britain is responsible for its own woes, ultimately they let these people in, to blame them is to create a straw man argument

if people are not likely to integrate why let them in?

if you let them in knowing this why complain?

having done this if you vilify these same people what is your motive for doing this?

dude, those numbers are from robust polls which concluded that the muslim immigrants who felt patriotic were a minority (mostly in the 20-30% range in most western nations)

you don't get to absolve vocally and sometimes violently troublemaking immigrants (forgotten 7/7?)

these people are responsible for the bad rap you've taken as muslims. do something about them instead of blaming countries whose governments are doing their best to accomodate you.

 

[EjazR]

Well lets not forget that Pakistan had been a darling of the western world till the 90s. India was always predicted to follow into the failed state realm. There were articles predicting the end of India andhow India will fracture under religious and ethnic tensions. There was derision on following Socialist economic model that crippled growth. While Pakistan was one of the econmic tigers recieving latest american training and weapons.

So somthing to keep in mind when pondering this.

Ofcourse the best thing would be to follow in the ideals of Jinnah and Iqbal to form an alliance with India and improve relations. Germany and France had 100s of years of rivalry and killed millions of people on both sides. But now they have a mutually beneficial relationship.

 

[ambidex]

@Develpereo
The so called anti Pakistan video shown! in Australia was a documentary on Taliban and Pakistani Madrases were GoP officials were taking that Oz journalist to encounter sites in slums of Karachi. There was nothing against Pakistan or GoP rather the whole documentary was showing how Pakistan is fighting against these radicals and why it is difficult to eradicate that mess, for Pakistan.

Please give us some links about other videos which are deliberately doing anti Pakistan propaganda. Australian media has never even broadcast Pakistan's name in alleged terrorist attack when western media has overwhelmingly interviewed your president to journalists to answer Indian allegations. Imran Khan was specially invited by NSW cricket board and his interview was telecast on some national channel(o gosh my memory the gentleman was famous host). I have seen few kids channels showing beautiful landscapes of Pakistan and its culture to their young viewers and truck art videos. One of the tram in Melbourne is decorated with same truck art stickers and paint. I think your judgment about Anti Pakistan OZ is bias.

As far as showing Indian programs on TV are concerned then i must tell you that Indian artist are doing 100s of programs every year in Australia and non has been covered by OZ media where thousands of Indians are going (bigger crowd than interstate cricket matches or rugby matches). Only recently AR Rahman's concert was covered to calm things down a bit due to race attacks!

But please look at the crowd and how he has represented india. One can go through all videos in youtube.

Indians are big community in Australia. More than 5-6 weekly newspapers in different Indian languages are published in OZ. Many Indian festivals are organized in different stadiums every year where many chief guest are invited from both side of politics with their booths distributing pamphlets etc. So Indians are doing many extraordinary efforts to act like a accepted community, not aliens, are scattered randomly and are not like others those who like to live in their own majority pockets of areas and do bussiness there.

I still remember reading an article from Indian News paper where ABC channel (i think) was criticized for not showing any story about India in their popular program 'Billions of Stories' (Documentaries about different nations), also the author mentioned about his formal request to the channel. Just after 1 month of that news a documentary on bollywood was shown. So yes! Indian are doing their bit of effort to create a space where they can be heard in Australia; which is a very open, sensitive and reactive society in general and is always busy in their own OZ media ecosystem which rarely care about other than footy,cooking, traffic/speed offences, weather and govt in power bashing.

Also people from many ethic backgrounds do like Indian movies in OZ. So there is definitely a market. Fiji Indians, Chinese, Koreans, lebanese, Afghans you name it they all like Indian movies and festivals. I was surprised when my Korean friend told me that his mother like Akshay's movie 'Muj se shaadi karogi', i was surprised to see white crowd (ladies) lining for tujh main raab dikhta hai in central Melbourne. I was shocked when my Chinese GP told me that last night he was in opera house to enjoy Anushka shanker's sitar vadan (yes he used this word sitar vadan). They all know about Aishwarya rai etc. ect.

 

[r3alist]

dude, those numbers are from robust polls which concluded that the muslim immigrants who felt patriotic were a minority (mostly in the 20-30% range in most western nations)

you don't get to absolve vocally and sometimes violently troublemaking immigrants (forgotten 7/7?)

these people are responsible for the bad rap you've taken as muslims. do something about them instead of blaming countries whose governments are doing their best to accomodate you.

you never answered my question, what defines integration.

robust polls? - says who, show me them


would you say all hindu's in britain should be patriotic to britain if gb was fighting india?

american jews certainly were not exactly that patriotic to the US when obama was critical of israel, clearly you are selective and simple in your views, the globalised world does not work like that, are hindu's in saudi arabia patriotic to saudi arabia?

there are many holes in your spiel to take it seriously.


the media's story selection and spin is entirely selective, ultimately they are responsible for the views they project, they have choice.

 

[whocares]

you never answered my question, what defines integrations.

robust polls? - says who, show me them


would you say all hindu's in britain should be patriotic to britain if gb was fighting india?

american jews certainly were not exactly that patriotic to the US when obama was critical of israel, clearly you are selective and simple in your views, the globalised world does not work like that, are hindu's in saudi arabia patriotic to saudi arabia?

there are many holes in your spiel to take it seriously.


the media's story selection and spin is entirely selective, ultimately they are responsible for the views they project, they have choice.

you're just living in wilful denial of facts you know are true. no other kind of immigrant makes the kind of fuss a significant number of muslims do. no other kind of immigrant is plotting bomb explosions and terror attacks.

on top of that is this self righteousness that i fail to understand. whatever, i have nothing to prove to you. have fun in your dreamland.

hindus in saudi arabia ? is that a joke? a country where immigrants have 0 political and religious rights? do they even grant hindus a citizenship?

 

[prototype]

No problem, we should also forment a policy of them denouncing Indian involvement in Baluchistan and brutalities in Kashmir if they want safe passage of their soldiers in afghanistan.

no nobody will still do that,first of all ur short of evidence,even if u have evidence as what u people claim,no body dare to go against as given our economy size and the business they generate here

u know why different leaders living in different diversity r singing Indian song at the cost of Pakistan,because it is pure business,unless and untill u r as strong as India in case of economy and business u will find it always hard to settle the score with us,and dont forget the economic disparity between us is growing every passing minute

 

[LaBong]

you're just living in wilful denial of facts you know are true. no other kind of immigrant makes the kind of fuss a significant number of muslims do. no other kind of immigrant is plotting bomb explosions and terror attacks.

on top of that is this self righteousness that i fail to understand. whatever, i have nothing to prove to you. have fun in your dreamland.

hindus in saudi arabia ? is that a joke? a country where immigrants have 0 political and religious rights? do they even grant hindus a citizenship?

umm, I don't think it depends on religion. AFAIK no Indian or Bangladeshi muslim has been arrested in any other country for plotting and terrorist attack.

 

[EjazR]

offtopic but me and my wife and were at the AR Rahman concert and it was packed. Didnt help that the concert was for free lol. Our leabneseneighbours came as well with their 3 year old kid and it was a really family friendly environment even though I was a little apprehensive at first.

 

[Tshering22]

no nobody will still do that,first of all ur short of evidence,even if u have evidence as what u people claim,no body dare to go against as given our economy size and the business they generate here

u know why different leaders living in different diversity r singing Indian song at the cost of Pakistan,because it is pure business,unless and untill u r as strong as India in case of economy and business u will find it always hard to settle the score with us,and dont forget the economic disparity between us is growing every passing minute

Oh so now we've raised the stakes because UK's PM feels this? Perhaps it is to please us and it does a big deal. So what? If you're so angry, why not sever ties with Britain?

The simple mantra I will tell you here is: stop proxy war and improve your economy. Then perhaps you stand a chance to shut UK, US and entire West.

 

[RescueRanger]

stop proxy war

You stop yours and we will stop ours.

 

[ambidex]

 

[Tshering22]

You stop yours and we will stop ours.

Show the world the proof of us being behind it. We showed yours, and they believed. Reckon you want to switch to old excuse: "zionist conspiracy"?