India Considers Buying More Boeing Apaches

[Abingdonboy]

@jhungary, the plans are for 1000+ Arjuns. I've heard this from IA officers themselves.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

@jhungary, the plans are for 1000+ Arjuns. I've heard this from IA officers themselves.

With the current speed... n inventory it will take a few decades to reach tht number.. currently 118 in service (dnt ask for the source... ive provided you several times before).

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

But its always better to have Large numbers even if its of Low quality than Few numbers of High tech Tanks

That line of thought ended with 91 gulf war.Precision guided munitions make numbers far less effective.

@jhungary, the plans are for 1000+ Arjuns. I've heard this from IA officers themselves.

But not arjun mk1 and 2,i'm guessing ur talking about arjun mk3?
FMBT has been scarpped in fgavour of evolution of arjun line of MBTs,so no doubt that arjun series will eventually be main MBT but not for a couple of decades i think.
My worry is what effect it will have on world tank community when armata arrives,it would make most current tanks obsolete.

 

[jhungary]

@jhungary, the plans are for 1000+ Arjuns. I've heard this from IA officers themselves.

In the military, we have a motto "You fight with you junk today, so make every swinging dick count"

When the shiite hits the fan, you only got what you've GOT to deal with this shiite, you can't ask to deal with it tomorrow, situation is dynamic, the situation may have change dramatically tomorrow

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

In the underlined part; you are absolutely right. There is indeed a great difference between Airborne and Air Assault Forces. Which is why the Indian Army has re-directed its doctrine towards Air Assault from Airborne.

Regarding the use of Armor; the IA's doctrine fromthe beginning depended on Infantry moving in tandem with Armor. Which is a must. Armor moves fast, then Infantry occupies the ground that Armor has moved into. Infantry also helps secure the flanks of Armor when the thrust becomes statinary or gets stalled. In 1965; the PA's tactics used independent Armor movement and thrusts unsupported by Infantry. Which happened to be based on US Army thinking since all the tanks in use and their training of that time was based on the US. That caused them a great deal of grief. After 1971, the IA evolved their ideas further and created Mechanised Infantry. Later they acquired the BMP, BRDM and BTR families of ICVs and APCs from the SU and other WP countries. That happened in the 80s and that is when the truly Mech Inf Bns in the IA were created. They are an integral part of the Strike Corps that the IA fields in the Western Theater. Now the idea of the Air Assault Forces is being refined to take that a notch up further. Probably the days of the "classical airborne" division is running out.

Thts why PA MI is there ... M113 series,Saad,Talha,raad,BTR-60/80 etc... in AT/IFV roles Maaz,Lazar 2s,PIFVs and hamza IFVs.....than we have new SPMs (under development)... numbering well over 3000+.

You have tactics that works with limited number and/or resource, and you have tactics that works with unlimited number and/or resource. Problem is, how you would want to operate, regardless of number is the most important, not the number itself.

Tactics govern the general direction of your troop, you gave them an objective and you gave them a direction and they will move accordingly, large number mean you have more in your disposal, it does not mean anything else.

However, when you get a smaller amount of troop, it's easier to use them and they would be more effective on achieving your objective (Given your troop are competent) large number, you can still achieve your objective effectively, but your command structure will need to be very sharp, in effect, the more number you have, the harder you can control the overall environment. Depending on your command structure and/or command quality, it can swing either you finish your job effectively and efficiently, or you can get out of control from the get go.

So my answer is, if your command structure can digest the number of troop, then more troop of same quality are always an advantage, but when you started to lose control, then it will be a big no-no.

The general MBT comparison is not good on India if you try to run against a combine force of China and Pakistan. Currently you are looking at a combine of about 8000-9000 MBT on Chinese/Pakistan side vs ~4000 tank on the India side.

The number is even worst for india when you break down the detail of which tank each element have vs the tank for the others. In Armour/Cavalry Warfare, we have a classification system that allow you to work out your actual combat ability. Tanks are separated into 3 group, tier 1,2 and 3, tier 1 tank is the backbone of your MBT, you mostly engage enemy MBT using your Tier 1. Tier 2 is supporting tank, which are older generation but still capable for armor warfare, use it to supplement Tier 1. Tier 3 is mostly infantry support/static defence vehicle. Well, those are no chance you can survive with a Armor engagement and relegated into infantry supporting role.

In the US, we have M1A2 as Tier 1, M1/M1A1 as tier 2, Selected M60, M2/3 as tier 3.
Indian Classification would be Arjun as T-1, T-90 as T-2, T-72 as T-3
Chinese Classification would be T-99 as T-1, T-96 as Tier 2, T-88, T-79, T-69 as Tier 3
Pakistan classification would be Al-Khalid as T-1, T-80 as T-2, type 85, 69, 55 as Tier 3

When you compare the matrix of Tier 1, you will see you get some 150 Arjun vs some 500 Type 99 and some 300 Al Khalid. Doesn't matter how well you spin your capability, you are running a 1 v 7 odds. For ever 1 shor fire by Arjun there are 7 shot fired from Type 99 and Al-Khalid. Survival rate is not good. However, when you look at supporting roles, this is where you get really alarming when you see 900 T-90 vs ~2000 type 96 and TU-80......While it will limited your forefront armor capability but it will damage your infantry supporting capability if a combine Chinese/Pakistani assault into India.

The only way you can make do is, well, either build more tank or you need to utilise some sort of force multiplier, if you cannot defeat your enemy enmasse, you pick a field where you can defeat them in detail, C4I is very important, also important is early warning and disruption ability, that is the only way to ensure India come out ahead with an engagement between China and Pakistan

600+ AKs are in service.. all being upgraded to AK-1 status.

 

[jhungary]

Thts why PA MI is there ... M113 series,Saad,Talha,raad,BTR-60/80 etc... in AT/IFV roles Maaz,Lazar 2s,PIFVs and hamza IFVs.....than we have new SPMs (under development)... numbering well over 3000+.



600+ AKs are in service.. all being upgraded to AK-1 status.

300 or 600, my point is clear, Indian MBTs are lacking in Tier 1 .......

 

[Abingdonboy]

That line of thought ended with 91 gulf war.Precision guided munitions make numbers far less effective.



But not arjun mk1 and 2,i'm guessing ur talking about arjun mk3?
FMBT has been scarpped in fgavour of evolution of arjun line of MBTs,so no doubt that arjun series will eventually be main MBT but not for a couple of decades i think.
My worry is what effect it will have on world tank community when armata arrives,it would make most current tanks obsolete.

Right, the Arjun Mk3 is effectively the FMBT now. It will be interesting to see just how many of the Mk.2s the IA orders as they could go for some serious orders if the tank is what DRDO claim.

The Mk3 is a a different matter.


I've also been hearing a lot about revivals of the TANK EX project ie mating the Arjun turret to the T-72 chassis. This would be a huge coup if the IA pulled this off. Excellent systems mated with a light and small tank body that can operate in the mountains.

@DESERT FIGHTER the DRDO is planning to dramatically ramp up production so decades to complete orders is a little too optimistic on your part.

 

[Abingdonboy]

In the military, we have a motto "You fight with you junk today, so make every swinging dick count"

When the shiite hits the fan, you only got what you've GOT to deal with this shiite, you can't ask to deal with it tomorrow, situation is dynamic, the situation may have change dramatically tomorrow

I get that sir, but does that mean there is no point in planning for the future??

India is hardly like to fight an all out war with Pakistan and China tommorow (the later especially so). The simple fact is that the Indian defece establishment having serious procurement budgets is only a very recent phenomena as such it will take time for the Indian military to enact their plans and get to where they want to be.


The way things stand today is not nessercarily the way things will stand tomorrow or the day after that......

 

[BLING]

AUSTERLITZ Thank You Ji .

But China has More number of Tanks against India ! So Whats the point of having Less number of Tanks against Enemy Force ? Bit confused Sir. 3000+ for IA andsome 8000+ for PLA

 

[SirHatesALot]

AUSTERLITZ Thank You Ji .

But China has More number of Tanks against India ! So Whats the point of having Less number of Tanks against Enemy Force ? Bit confused Sir. 3000+ for IA andsome 8000+ for PLA

We cannot match china militarily,at least not in the coming decade.

 

[BLING]

BLACKGOLD I Hate You man

 

[SirHatesALot]

BLACKGOLD I Hate You man

For what exactly.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

AUSTERLITZ Thank You Ji .

But China has More number of Tanks against India ! So Whats the point of having Less number of Tanks against Enemy Force ? Bit confused Sir. 3000+ for IA andsome 8000+ for PLA

Yes; so what? Where exactly will those Indian and Chinese tanks (regardless of the numbers) face off and fight each other?

 

[BLING]

Capt.Popeye Chinese are all along out borders !

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Capt.Popeye Chinese are all along out borders !

Man,are those chinese tanks going to come over the himalayas?Chinese armour is of little value,neither indai nor china have barely any armour deployed in their borders.90% Indian armour is for use against pak in rajasthan desert and plains of punjab.

300 or 600, my point is clear, Indian MBTs are lacking in Tier 1 .......

One bad miscalculation on ur part is t-90 tier 2 but al khalid tier 1.T-90 can take on any chinese or pakistani tank any where.we do have around 1000 of them.To compare t-90 to type-96 is incorrect.T-90 can eat that tank for lunch.
Chinese armour also has several design flaws in armour .