India Considers Buying More Boeing Apaches

[SQ8]

There has been a great deal of movement (to and fro) on finally delegating 'spheres of influence' so to speak. One thing that IA has pushed for and won acceptance of the idea of an Organic Rotorcraft Air Attack Fleet. But the contours have not been fixed yet. There is also a line of thought that is pushing for setting up an Air Assault Force like the Americans. But there is still no clarity whether it will be Army centric or Joint Command.

Well, there may be something along the lines of Joint Force Harrier.. but that is still more understandable as fixed wing assets are shared. Here, the Rotor craft is essentially limited in its employment on a tactical level(leaving aside instances such as the desert storm radar raid) and should therefore remain with the force commander of the region. i.e the packaged force should exist specifically with the Corps commander or otherwise.

 

[Tshering22]

I personally think that we should not buy any American weapons
Only European,Brazillian & Russian

You never know when sanctions might hit you

That is exactly what worries me.

US is very unpredictable and at the drop of a hat sanctions any country.

Plus, we don't even have copy-pasting capabilities that in case US puts sanctions, we come back in 12 months and are able to make replicas of parts and spares and engines and all for Apaches.

Which is why I was wishing Mi-28N to win the bid.

 

[surya kiran]

I am talking about the combined tank forces that could possibly be faced. Not that I really wanted to focus on tanks.. but rather that 22 seemed hardly more than a token number.

The expected ratio is 1:3. For every apache 3 lch. The number of Apaches is expected to be round 60 at-least. That would be 180 LCH have been ordered. Won't be surprised if this number goes up. Plus the armed Rudras with troop carrying capability. The current order for the Rudras is around 76. Considering this is the first order, its likely to go up.

Backed with close support aircraft of the IAF, this will be lethal. I was wondering @Capt.Popeye, how about moving the old Harriers to the IA for close support role? To give them operational experience for the future? Nothing like jump jets. But, are those oldies capable for close air support roles, I do not know.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Backed with close support aircraft of the IAF, this will be lethal. I was wondering @Capt.Popeye, how about moving the old Harriers to the IA for close support role? To give them operational experience for the future? Nothing like jump jets. But, are those oldies capable for close air support roles, I do not know.

That idea is extremely unworkable. The airframes remaining have not too many hours remaining. Then to train/re-train IA pilots to fly them is not worth it. Otherwise; the CAS/BAS role was tailor made for Harriers. But their time is past now.
The Harriers remaining may still be utilised with the IN to support Amphibious Ops. Another role that they can still perform. They can even be operated from LPDs or better still from LHDs. And then fade out.

 

[SQ8]

That idea is extremely unworkable. The airframes remaining have not too many hours remaining.

What did the LUSH add?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

What did the LUSH add?

Derby BVR and ISRAELI ELTA radar.

 

[sancho]

I am talking about the combined tank forces that could possibly be faced. Not that I really wanted to focus on tanks.. but rather that 22 seemed hardly more than a token number.

You are forgeting the aim of the 22 / 2 squads, to replace 2 squads of Mi35s and that while just IAF has plans to induct 6 more LCH squads and some Rudras. IA on the other side wants 3 squads of Apaches and more than a dozen Rudra and LCH squadrons too, which even are designed for high altitude operations. So there was never a need for high number of Apaches (especially at the high costs), but for a proven and ready replacment for the Mi35s, or in IA's service, capability increase in the strike corps.

Also, for anti tank today armed drones are the far better choice than combat helicopters. They can carry more weapons, can cover a wider area, has far longer endurance and are less vulnerable to air defences.

The plan is to have each Corps equipped with its
1 sqdrn of Heavy Attack Chopper
multiple sqdrns of LCH(Light Combat Helicoptor)
Multiple sqdrns of WSI Dhruv (Armed Dhruv/ALH)

There is nothing like a heavy combat helicopter requirement:

...According to a plan drawn up by the Army Aviation Corps, each Corps will have three squadrons (30 helicopters) of various types. The three squadrons will have three distinct roles--reconnaissance and surveillance, attack and utility...

...The final plan of the Indian Army is to have a separate brigade of Aviation Corps with each of the 13 Corps of the Indian Army. Each of these Aviation Brigades are expected to have a squadron dedicated to carry out surveillance and reconnaissance, a separate squadron of armed helicopters and third squadron of Light Utility Helicopters for ferrying people and other duties.

Army gets attack helicopters as India eyes China threat | NDTV.com


Utility - Fennec/Ka 226 & Dhruv
Surveillance and Reconnaissance - Rudra, Fennec (depending on sensors)
Attack - LCH, Apache

 

[Contrarian]

The attack requirement is divided into two platforms.
Basic classification.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

The army will need at least 30 of these to form the tip of the spear for the mountain strike corps air elements.

Allot of activity and deals being made since the PLA incursion earlier this year.

Thanks for waking up south block PLA!

We chinese are flattered ...to bad we didn't receive any commission for the deal

I personally think that we should not buy any American weapons
Only European,Brazillian & Russian

You never know when sanctions might hit you

Sanction will never happen if India know how to bow in front of U.S.

 

[jhungary]

First thing first, you cannot use Fix wing on the same AO if you have rotary asset in the theatre.

You can use multiple layer of fixed wing CAS or you can use multiple layer of Gunship, but NEVER mixed both. The theory behind this was you are congesting the target airspace with both helicopter and fix wing and most likely under different control and you would not be able to clear your air space quickly. This is a good way to get some mid-air collision.

Also the concept of Air Assault is to seize ground with air mobility so that the enemy cannot or would not have enough time to react and/or intervene, the role of Apache in Air Assault would be limited to Aerial Fire Support, which will most definitely limited the capability of the Apache. Plus I don't think India have a dedicated Air Assault Corp other than Special Forces........

Tank battle is and always is won by tank, not air asset, Air asset may have help you a bit but if you are counting on Air Asset to win a tank battle, well, then good luck

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

First thing first, you cannot use Fix wing on the same AO if you have rotary asset in the theatre.

You can use multiple layer of fixed wing CAS or you can use multiple layer of Gunship, but NEVER mixed both. The theory behind this was you are congesting the target airspace with both helicopter and fix wing and most likely under different control and you would not be able to clear your air space quickly. This is a good way to get some mid-air collision.

Also the concept of Air Assault is to seize ground with air mobility so that the enemy cannot or would not have enough time to react and/or intervene, the role of Apache in Air Assault would be limited to Aerial Fire Support, which will most definitely limited the capability of the Apache. Plus I don't think India have a dedicated Air Assault Corp other than Special Forces........

Tank battle is and always is won by tank, not air asset, Air asset may have help you a bit but if you are counting on Air Asset to win a tank battle, well, then good luck

Why u think we have 3000+ tanks and 40000 ATGMS?PLus carl gustavs and shipons.we also got cbu-97 anti armour cluster bomb from USA.Apache is icing on the cake.
Though much of our border is mountanous that makes armour redundant for both sides.

 

[jhungary]

Why u think we have 3000+ tanks and 40000 ATGMS?PLus carl gustavs and shipons.we also got cbu-97 anti armour cluster bomb from USA.Apache is icing on the cake.
Though much of our border is mountanous that makes armour redundant for both sides.

That's what the Egyptian thought when they deem the desert of Sinai was too harsh for Israeli tanks, yet the Israeli found a way

 

[Abingdonboy]

@jhungary- India does have independent parachute brigades that comprise airborne infantry, airborne signal units, airborne medics, SOFs etc elements

 

[satishkumarcsc]

That's what the Egyptian thought when they deem the desert of Sinai was too harsh for Israeli tanks, yet the Israeli found a way

We also did in Kashmir during 1948 war with Pakistan. but there is a limit for that. With the advent of modern anti tank weapons running tanks through valley is like committing suicide.

Tanks basically have three wheels on which they stand...they are firpower, Mobility and Protection. Take away even one of these a tank is just a sitting duck. Egyptians used tanks as Dug in artillery and even in 1991 we know what happens to tanks used as dug in artillery.

 

[jhungary]

@jhungary- India does have independent parachute brigades that comprise airborne infantry, airborne signal units, airborne medics, SOFs etc elements

Umm.....I am talking about dedicated air assault unit not airborne unit, the two are VERY different.......

Yes I know, our own "Airborne" division was used for Air Assault but the 2 concept is very different. the 101 keep their airborne tab for namesake only, not because of anything else......

We also did in Kashmir during 1948 war with Pakistan. but there is a limit for that. With the advent of modern anti tank weapons running tanks through valley is like committing suicide.

Tanks basically have three wheels on which they stand...they are firpower, Mobility and Protection. Take away even one of these a tank is just a sitting duck. Egyptians used tanks as Dug in artillery and even in 1991 we know what happens to tanks used as dug in artillery.

Well, depending on the scale, running tank alone no doubt will be a suicide but what if you are facing a combine force??

Problem with tanks are they are vulnerable if they are alone, in fact any independent unit are vulnerable if they were left alone, that's what Yom Kippur taught us. Hence we are forming Joint Brigade in the US instead of forming a Unison division