India chooses Multi-Role Transport Aircraft produced jointly with Russia, cancels tender

[SwAggeR]

India needs her own carrier, bomber, tanker. This collaboration is good start. We will learn and absorb many new techs . With Russian mastery of such planes , it would be super hit venture like Brahmos. Way to go.But one off topic , are we building Brahmos engine inhouse or still dependent on Russia ??

Can't we use four jet engine Kaveri to fly this transport plane ??

Hilarious isn't it? They simply couldn't attract more privat industry vendors to participate, the same problem that the former MoD faced too and instead of getting the best possible deal with the only JV that came forward (which imo was the best offer in the tender anyway), Parrikar seems to have a different idea. The idea is completely contrary to the aim of the IAF, the MoD and even the PM's Make in India agenda, but does have some sense in it, because Parrikar seems to think about making IAF more efficient as a whole, by using just one type of airfraft, similar to his ideas about MKIs for MMRCA.
I don't think he is doing the right thing, but one have to give it to him, that he is developing is own ideas to improve things, beyond party politics. But this is not a done deal, lets see what the PM says about it.

I hope PM gives him free hand.But plz do tell me how is this contradicting PM's make in India.

 

[ruby007]

So rather than going for an already proven system like the A330 MRT today, they are going for developing a new version?? How does that help if India wants a tanker fleet today?

Mr.ThinkTank, A330 MRTT is a Tanker not medium transport aircraft

 

[Echo_419]

So rather than going for an already proven system like the A330 MRT today, they are going for developing a new version?? How does that help if India wants a tanker fleet today?

You are confusing yourself btw 2 different kinds of planes

Where did you see anything about AARs? The IAF is still going to get the A330 MRTT, the MTA standards for MultiRole Transport Aircraft and is intended to replace the IAF's An-132s and now their Avros. Nothing to do with tankers.



This is an outdated figure, to replace the 50+ Avros and 100+ An-132s the IAF is going to need MUCH more than 45, they are surely looking at 150-200+


Hmmm, it would be a good decision if the MTA was being test flown as we speak and it was clear the MTA was set to be a success. To date it is still a paper plane and taking decisions like this based on promised specifications is bold to say the least. i hope this works out BUT it could end in tears.

The C-295 on the other hand is a proven machine AND the tie up with Tata would have brought a lot of industrial benefits to the private sector in India, as it stands the production of the MTA is another HAL monopoly.

I said the same thing yesterday in another thread & looks like some one in MOD read my comment
better to combine the Avro replacement project ^ the MTA project

 

[anant_s]

Hilarious isn't it? They simply couldn't attract more privat industry vendors to participate, the same problem that the former MoD faced too and instead of getting the best possible deal with the only JV that came forward (which imo was the best offer in the tender anyway), Parrikar seems to have a different idea. The idea is completely contrary to the aim of the IAF, the MoD and even the PM's Make in India agenda, but does have some sense in it, because Parrikar seems to think about making IAF more efficient as a whole, by using just one type of airfraft, similar to his ideas about MKIs for MMRCA.
I don't think he is doing the right thing, but one have to give it to him, that he is developing is own ideas to improve things, beyond party politics. But this is not a done deal, lets see what the PM says about it.

Well Mr. Parrikar is PM's hand picked man and it seems he is working with full autonomy and freedom. He is trying out new and radical ideas and some of them haven't worked. He is trying his best to fit in PM's idea of Make in India but unfortunately until he corrects some basic malice in Indian defence industry, things won't move at expected pace.
I suppose DM must look at Dr. Manmohan Singh (Finance minister ie back in early and mid 90s). He brought a change in almost all spheres of economic life for a common man by allowing Private participation against government run/funded organizations. This facet led to either closure of several govt. run industries or getting them to tighten up and become efficient.
Mr. Parrikar also faces similar situation. Organizations like HAL, DRDO and likes have been patronized for far too long and now when govt. wants local industry to contribute towards defence, a similar type of solution is required. & going by his recent criticism of several such orgs, this is what he might be intending to do.
Today i have atleast 5 to 6 choices to select my ISP even in small cities, why shouldn't armed forces as customers have the same freedom.
DM is dabbling with several ideas and some of them do look crazy (i agree with MKI for MMRCA example), but i sincerely hope as one of the best educated minister of defence in recent times and an impressive record as an administrator, he would bring in a pragmatic change and lay road map for transparent and efficient system for procurement of military hardware for armed forces be it indigenous or imported. & that should be his true legacy.

 

[sancho]

I hope PM gives him free hand.But plz do tell me how is this contradicting PM's make in India.

Make in India = licence production of foreign products by Indian privat industry
MTA = joint development that will be partially developed and produced by Indian state owned industry

MTA doesn't get Indian privat industry much, other than a few parts that HAL outsources.

Well Mr. Parrikar is PM's hand picked man and it seems he is working with full autonomy and freedom.

And that's the surprising part, Jaitley was just a puppet while the PM pulled the strings, see LUH and SSK deals. From what we see of Parrikar so far, it is very likely that he had handled those deals differently too.

Today i have atleast 5 to 6 choices to select my ISP even in small cities, why shouldn't armed forces as customers have the same freedom.

They should, that's even the crucial point, competition. But the change towards competitions to get the best deal was done by the former government, this government is retaining with it, with the minor difference that they want all licence productions being done by privat Indian companies, just for the benefit of them. That however is limiting us again, as we can see in the Avro replacement. If HAL would had been allowed in the competition and could had found a partner, IAF had at least 2 options to choose from. But we kept HAL out and ended up in a single vendor situation, poor planing and at this point poor decision making.

DM is dabbling with several ideas and some of them do look crazy (i agree with MKI for MMRCA example), but i sincerely hope as one of the best educated minister of defence in recent times and an impressive record as an administrator, he would bring in a pragmatic change and lay road map for transparent and efficient system for procurement of military hardware for armed forces be it indigenous or imported. & that should be his true legacy.

I am looking forward for his changed DPP, will be very interesting what he has in mind there. He is making some mistakes, but if we granted the NDA a honeymoon period, the DM should have some months too. Around summer we might have a better view on how good or bad he is and what he has achieved so far.

 

[mehul sharma]

So rather than going for an already proven system like the A330 MRT today, they are going for developing a new version?? How does that help if India wants a tanker fleet today?

choosing innovation over already developed is really a good step.You people always say that India buy weapons from Russia,USA,Israel so that must be a driving force....

 

[SwAggeR]

Make in India = licence production of foreign products by Indian privat industry
MTA = joint development that will be partially developed and produced by Indian state owned industry

Who said you that MAKE IN INDIA =Only Licence production of phoren maal ??

Never mind HAL is located in India and Make in India doesn't differentiate between private and sarkari .


If private co. are not capable to produce certain high end system then government can't let suffer defense preparedness for that. Private co. can/will get chance in development of other lower end systems which matches their capability.

 

[sancho]

Who said you that MAKE IN INDIA =Only Licence production of phoren maal ?

The BJP manifesto to start with, which clearly point out their aim on increased defence "manufacturing" in India, not increased defence development in India and all the PR shows of the PM during his foreign tours to invite foreign companies to "manufacture" in India, let alone the recent agreements with the US to "manufacture" some US defence products in India should make that pretty clear by now.

Never mind HAL is located in India and Make in India doesn't differentiate between private and sarkari .

It does, that's why HAL wasn't allowed in the Avro replacement, or why HAL was removed from the LUH tender, which now also is diverted to privat Indian industry, or why the SSK deal is also designed to prefer privat Indian ship yards.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

So rather than going for an already proven system like the A330 MRT today, they are going for developing a new version?? How does that help if India wants a tanker fleet today?

We want to develop our industry.

OP_ good move. But PLEEEEAAASEEEEE let private partners participate in a big way instead of keeping it to HAL.

The BJP manifesto to start with, which clearly point out their aim on increased defence "manufacturing" in India, not increased defence development in India and all the PR shows of the PM during his foreign tours to invite foreign companies to "manufacture" in India, let alone the recent agreements with the US to "manufacture" some US defence products in India should make that pretty clear by now.



It does, that's why HAL wasn't allowed in the Avro replacement, or why HAL was removed from the LUH tender, which now also is diverted to privat Indian industry, or why the SSK deal is also designed to prefer privat Indian ship yards.

Well maybe we can start form there. Our experience shows that we can build up from there right?

 

[SwAggeR]

The BJP manifesto to start with, which clearly point out their aim on increased defence "manufacturing" in India, not increased defence development in India and all the PR shows of the PM during his foreign tours to invite foreign companies to "manufacture" in India, let alone the recent agreements with the US to "manufacture" some US defence products in India should make that pretty clear by now.



It does, that's why HAL wasn't allowed in the Avro replacement, or why HAL was removed from the LUH tender, which now also is diverted to privat Indian industry, or why the SSK deal is also designed to prefer privat Indian ship yards.

Did his manifesto explicitly mention "Licence Production" ?? He talked about self reliance in defence manufacturing and what layman will make out is development.

You are just BJP -phobic.

You know exactly why earlier contract was scrapped , don't you ??

 

[sancho]

Well maybe we can start form there. Our experience shows that we can build up from there right?

We already can "build", that's what HAL is doing for the last decades, licencense productions. But they are often limited in ToT and know how, which is why basic licence productions without sharing critical stuff doesn't make HAL or our industry more capable in developing stuff. That's where deals like MKI or now MMRCA gave and should give us far more, not to mention the next level of joint developments that we already reached. So going back now to basic licence productions, just to get more jobs for the "manufacturing" side in India, doesn't solve the problem that we have on the development side.

Did his manifesto explicitly mention "Licence Production" ?? He talked about self reliance in defence manufacturing and what layman will make out is development.

That's the funny part about it, he claimed self reliance through manufacturing in India, but manufacturing foreign stuff in India, doesn't make you 100% self reliant at all.

You are just BJP -phobic.

Lol, that's why I read the manifesto and what it states about their plans in the defence field, while you obviously didn't, which only shows that I am interested in what they actually mean and don't just stick to what they say on PR tours and in their election promises.

You know exactly why earlier contract was scrapped , don't you ??

Which contract?

 

[SwAggeR]

That's the funny part about it, he claimed self reliance through manufacturing in India, but manufacturing foreign stuff in India, doesn't make you 100% self reliant at all.

Again same rhetoric , did his manifesto explicitly mention ' Manufacturing only threw licence production ' ??

Lol, that's why I read the manifesto and what it states about their plans in the defence field, while you obviously didn't, which only shows that I am interested in what they actually mean and don't just stick to what they say on PR tours and in their election promises.

So, it's good that you read his manifesto . Now tell me where he says , he will only licence produce systems and won't allow developmental work ??

Which contract?

In which TATA was only bidder.

 

[sancho]

Again same rhetoric , did his manifesto explicitly mention ' Manufacturing only threw licence production ' ??
So, it's good that you read his manifesto . Now tell me where he says , he will only licence produce systems and won't allow developmental work ??

As I said, it stated increase defence manufacturing and not developing in India and I already gave the examples what changes that brought in the tenders after the elections. You might not like it, but that's the fact!

In which TATA was only bidder.

The Avro replacement, it never was scrapped only put on hold once to investigate if HAL should be part of the tender.

 

[shontumontu]

This is a political decision.

I repeat, this is a political decision.

Russia needs it's friends today.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Who said you that MAKE IN INDIA =Only Licence production of phoren maal ??

Make in India even if it was restricted to only licence production would still be a very worthy ambition given the number of jobs it would create and the kind of investment such a manufacturing base in India would bring. The level of manufacturing in India is pitiful to day. ToT and such will come but are not always the be all and end all.