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India and NSG-News, Updates and Discussions.

UK has already left Euro despite Obama begging them not to. Who knows, but the future of EU itself is in smoke at the moment. States are only looking after their own interests these days. The blind following of yanks is slowly and gradually becoming questionable. You Indians in your honeymoon with Uncle Sam are overestimating yanks. Times have changed.

Our exports to certain nations doesnt stop us to do what we need to do for our national interests. The congressmen keep on bitching about Pakistan yet we give them two finger salute, and yet that is not effecting our exports does it?

Thing is, we mint yanks when they were at their prime, you lot joined as a after thought on this American bandwagon, and as a matter or pure luck or shall I say brilliant foresight, we build strong strategic partnership with Chinese at the time when they were discarded by rest of the world as drug addicts, and now they are the movers and shakers in world affairs. So yea we are doing pretty ok.

Question is, putting all your eggs in the sun which setting on the horizon, going forward, would we take it as masterstroke or planing stupidity? :)

Today of all days, for some reason, I am thinking about Late Gen Hameed Gul and his words.
well we indians never put all eggs in one basket but same cant be said about you first it was USA/friends not masters now its china time to watch out is fore you not us we have good relations with every power block and doing all kinds of trade with them worry should be yours :D
 
That's the whole point of my OP. It's not like China and India were friends to start with, only when India wanted something from us (NSG/UNSC seats).

And sure, if you want something you can have it. But since we are not friends, don't expect it for free.

(Edited my previous post after your complaint, btw.)

@Rain Man how goes the preparations for cutting off trade ties with China? :police:

Who said 'cutting'? The word is 'control'..

India's NSG seat and UNSC seat are still available...

IF they come to the table for an honest negotiation. :azn:

------------------------------

Let's be frank, China and India are NOT friends. We all know this.

Yet whenever India needs something (NSG/UNSC), they suddenly pretend that they are our friends, and ask for "free favours", like in the case of the NSG.

Then at the same time, they went behind China and did their best to try and guilt/isolate China into supporting their NSG bid, by making deals with every other country besides China. Hoping that foreign pressure would force China to succumb. Sorry, that never works. Only one veto is ever needed, that's how veto power works.

But they never did the thing which could actually give them what they want. Which is to come to the negotiating table and offer us something in return.

For example, India agreed to sign the CISMOA/LSA in return for America getting them the NSG seat (which they failed to deliver). India has never fought a war with America... yet they paid SO much for America's support in the NSG (the biggest payment possible). Did India really expect China to offer the same support for free, considering that we are NOT friends?

You want something, you offer something in return. That's how the world works.

Now let India come and negotiate. :) We are businessmen after all.

This post of @Nilgiri should solve your queries.

It might hurt some to know that China gave fuel to India's tarapur reactor in the mid 90s:

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-opinion/remember-lessons-from-tarapur/article3039230.ece

Dealing with the Chinese today is basically a question of what they want unofficially. There use of Pakistan equality with India is really just a cover....they have betrayed Pakistan under the table quite a few times already when the price is right (lack of pursuing a waiver for Pakistan, supplying fuel to Tarapur, giving NSG waiver to India).

In fact their lack of pursuing a waiver for Pakistan is especially interesting. It seems they want to a) prevent being the lone supporter of such a waiver b) keep Pakistan a captive market for Chinese nuclear industry (since a waiver would open up the world nuclear market to Pakistan...like it has done for India.)

Similarly China feels that the NSG is where the buck stops, so they can put a fly in the ointment for India as far as competition that India can provide in supplying nuclear technology at cost-effective pricepoints that China currently monopolizes within the NSG-IAEA framework.

Problem for them is that this window wont last too long given the rumours already going around of creating an entirely new grouping of the 47 other members of the NSG + India (and instead of China)....not to mention India can also keep making specific bilateral arrangements (esp if it has the backing of the other main NSG members) in the meantime.

China can only hope to get the best deal it can by letting India into the NSG the way I see it, since they can at least get something from India in return. But hey, if they want to continue on their current track for whatever "face-saving reason"....Napoleon said it best....do not stop your enemy when he is making a mistake :D
 
This post of @Nilgiri should solve your queries.

The post by @Nilgiri is a good one, very insightful.

In geopolitics, countries seek to further their own national interests. Therefore India can get the seat if they decide to play ball.

NSG and UNSC aren't even that relevant for China, we don't consult them for anything we do, whether it is supplying nuclear reactors to Pakistan or building islands in the SCS. None of these things are approved by the NSG/UNSC.

All that matters is, what can further our national interests. So countries will negotiate with each other to come to an understanding.

But India still doesn't seem to see geopolitics as a game of interests. Their attitude towards China/Pakistan is all about emotion. They could offer great deals to other NSG members, but not to China, even though it might have got them the seat.
 
You think Indian establishment did not know china's opposition? They decided to make one coordinated effort. They'll be back again. Like I said UNSC is a 15 year project and there will be several reverses along the way.

Like i said these exclusive clubs have veto powers for a reason, India could try endless times and kudos for your efforts, And there will be few moral victories here and there.. But that's where it ends
 
The post by @Nilgiri is a good one, very insightful.

In geopolitics, countries seek to further their own national interests. Therefore India can get the seat if they decide to play ball.

NSG and UNSC aren't even that relevant for China, we don't consult them for anything we do, whether it is supplying nuclear reactors to Pakistan or building islands in the SCS. None of these things are approved by the NSG/UNSC.

All that matters is, what can further our national interests. So countries will negotiate with each other to come to an understanding.
  • But India still doesn't seem to see geopolitics as a game of interests. Their attitude towards China/Pakistan is all about emotion. They could offer great deals to other NSG members, but not to China, even though it might have got them the seat.
India plays by the rules. Always have always will. Your folly is to mistake that for weakness. And this trait of India is what makes other nations trust us. Hence the support of 47/48. And hence your fear of us.

Despite all the prejudices and barriers that the rest of the world created for India in the last 60 years, our accomplishments are many and still on the rise. We are technologically not far behind and will be at pace with the rest soon. You can stay in denial about that
 
well we indians never put all eggs in one basket but same cant be said about you first it was USA/friends not masters now its china time to watch out is fore you not us we have good relations with every power block and doing all kinds of trade with them worry should be yours :D

LOL, sunshine, everyone with slight understanding of geopolitics is aware that you have jumped into Uncle Sam lap not today but since early 90s. The NSG was the reward of your loyalty which unfortunately went horrible wrong. My condolences.

And please read my comments again. We didnt tilt towards China recently, we have been their partners since the time they were class as drug addicts. Our partnership spans decades. Only the foolish Indians think otherwise :) .
 
The post by @Nilgiri is a good one, very insightful.

In geopolitics, countries seek to further their own national interests. Therefore India can get the seat if they decide to play ball.

NSG and UNSC aren't even that relevant for China, we don't consult them for anything we do, whether it is supplying nuclear reactors to Pakistan or building islands in the SCS. None of these things are approved by the NSG/UNSC.

All that matters is, what can further our national interests. So countries will negotiate with each other to come to an understanding.

But India still doesn't seem to see geopolitics as a game of interests. Their attitude towards China/Pakistan is all about emotion. They could offer great deals to other NSG members, but not to China, even though it might have got them the seat.

What I am saying is not out of emotion, China enjoys a huge trade imbalance with us, that's a benefit for China for which we got nothing in return. This benefit should be seen as a trade off for what we want, otherwise we need to take back that benefit, at least a portion of it that is non-essential imports for us. Then China can negotiate with us about what we want to get back those benefits. And trust me, there is enough scope to cut down on non-essential imports.
 
What I am saying is not out of emotion, China enjoys a huge trade imbalance with us, that's a benefit for China for which we got nothing in return. This benefit should be seen as a trade off for what we want, otherwise we need to take back that benefit, at least a portion of it that is non-essential imports for us. Then China can negotiate with us about what we want to get back those benefits. And trust me, there is enough scope to cut down on non-essential imports.

Nobody "forces" other countries/people to trade. They trade because it benefits them.

If a businessman thinks that a particular trade is a bad deal, he will find someone else to trade with instantly. The world is FULL of trade deals, the second a better deal comes along they will switch to it instantly.

Indian businessmen don't buy from China because they like China, Indian consumers don't buy made in China because they like China, the Indian government doesn't order Chinese trains/railways because they like China.

They do it because they think it's the best deal for THEM. They aren't helping us, they are helping themselves.

If you want to hurt yourselves in order to hurt us as well, then please be my guest. We will of course have to retaliate in kind. Both sides will be able to bear the losses without much pain I would wager. So go for it. :enjoy:
 
What I am saying is not out of emotion, China enjoys a huge trade imbalance with us, that's a benefit for China for which we got nothing in return. This benefit should be seen as a trade off for what we want, otherwise we need to take back that benefit, at least a portion of it that is non-essential imports for us. Then China can negotiate with us about what we want to get back those benefits. And trust me, there is enough scope to cut down on non-essential imports.

Sir, have you thought why China has a huge trade surplus against India? Indians want Chinese products but other than natural resources and agriculture products, India does not have things Chinese want.
 
LOL, sunshine, everyone with slight understanding of geopolitics is aware that you have jumped into Uncle Sam lap not today but since early 90s. The NSG was the reward of your loyalty which unfortunately went horrible wrong. My condolences.

And please read my comments again. We didnt tilt towards China recently, we have been their partners since the time they were class as drug addicts. Our partnership spans decades. Only the foolish Indians think otherwise :) .
well even USA had its trade and economic relations with india ever since india became free nation and they even helped us in 1962 big time but then they shifted there focus to pakistan but after operation gibralter they abandonned you and both ayub khan and ZAB had to run to USSR and later do tashkent accord :D so owr relation with USA , UK , France or germany japan is also very old point is what now and good luck :)
 
Like i said these exclusive clubs have veto powers for a reason, India could try endless times and kudos for your efforts, And there will be few moral victories here and there.. But that's where it ends

What BS

- India lobbied and got 40+ countries to support it
-China also lobbied the same 40+ countries but they did not support it, went against China's wishes and voted against it's stand

Excepting Austria to support China's stand that Pak should get NSG is just ridiculous. Their problems are probabky different (do gooder, doesn't want nuclear system for one country and so on).
 
For the first time in more than a decade, India's quest for a place at the global high table faces a reversal of course. What amounts to an outright rejection of India's attempt to become a member of the Nuclear Suppliers Group or NSG requires us to stand back and question exactly how we are presenting ourself to the world - and whether our foreign policy priorities still make sense.

Let's be clear about one thing: the driving force behind the rejection of NSG membership for India was China. The People's Republic has sought to hide behind procedure, claiming that exceptions to outdated non-proliferation rules cannot be made for India. This is obviously hypocritical; China expects, for example, that any number of other international rules need to be bent to serve its own rise. Just look at its behaviour in the South China Sea, where it seems to expect that the law of the sea should not apply to its actions.

China's assertion on procedure amounts to an insistence that Pakistan should be considered for NSG membership at the same time as India. This is, for obvious reasons, farcical; no any objective consideration of the two countries' records on nuclear proliferation suggests they're comparable. Pakistan has been continually and consistently unreliable on it; India, whatever its past behaviour, has since the late 1990s tests, lived up to international non-proliferation commitments - even though it has signed no treaty compelling it to do so.

The takeaways from this NSG fiasco are two-fold.

The first is that China has now shown us its hand. More explicitly than ever before, it has told the world this: that it does not - and will not for the foreseeable future - allow India its natural space in the world. The leaders of the People's Republic do not intend to enable India's rise the way they expect and demand the rest of the globe support China's own rise.



India has long harboured a large constituency of people who believe that "non-alignment" between China and the US is in India's best interests. The NSG vote has clearly shown up the holes in this argument. What non-alignment is reasonable between China and the US when those two countries, through their behaviour, have shown what their own alignment towards India actually is?

Naturally, this is not an argument for not deepening and strengthening our ties with China. Creating a closer relationship with China is a necessary part of any effort to change minds in Beijing about how they should deal with India. (The same basic logic applies, of course, to our efforts to deepen and strengthen ties with Pakistan.)

But that does not mean that we can deny reality. And the reality is this: of the US and China, only one has committed to viewing India as a great world power, to detaching its association with Pakistan with its connection to India, and to giving India the place it deserves in global institutions. Indian foreign policy must reflect this difference, regardless of what Delhi's congenitally anti-American elites believe. In such a choice, where no balance is offered, no balance can be achieved. Let all talk of 21st-century non-alignment now end.

The second lesson is that India must make its vision of its own future clear. It needs to make explicitly what it expects and deserves: a global order that unequivocally recognises India's position as the world's fastest-growing large economy, the world's largest democracy - and soon its largest country, bar none.

This expectation is both just and realistic. China's peaceful rise is being accommodated by the post-World War II world arrangements. India's equally inevitable rise must be, too.

This might indeed require exceptions to long-standing rules or norms. It could indeed need global agreements to have conscious India exceptions. There is nothing to be ashamed of in this; it is merely realistic. This country is too large, and is changing too quickly, for things to be otherwise. And it is too large and too important for the worlds' future for denying exceptions to be morally defensible.

India's diplomacy needs to make this vision of our future as explicit as possible, given that it is both morally justified and necessary.

Yes, foreign policy under Narendra Modi has focused on raising India's profile. Foreign Secretary S Jaishankar has at various points laid out the argument that India must transition from being a "balancing" to being a "leading" power.

But there needs to be more coherent messaging. The NSG fiasco, which sets back this country's necessary campaign for a more just global order, certainly reveals that much. If it was unlikely that China would change its mind, then it is unclear why we pushed.

In 2008, when India was given access to certain NSG privileges, a big reason was because the American president could ask a favour of China's paramount leader. Perhaps President Obama did not want to ask with enough passion; perhaps he could not, given his lame-duck status; perhaps this paramount leader is less well disposed to his neighbours than 2008's. All of these should have been taken into consideration; were they? If so, what thinking underlay the decision to push through anyway? We deserve an answer. The government's desire for quick, positive headlines at home must not be allowed to obscure our larger aims.

And even after the decision to push at the NSG was taken, is this really the best outcome? To have states like Brazil and South Africa, nominally our partners in BRICS, nevertheless contribute to procedural objections to a discussion of the Indian exception? What should have been China vs the world turned into something far messier. That is a serious setback, and one that should not be minimised.

India's membership of the NSG on its own terms is not about the arcana of international law. It is not even about the nuclear trade. It is about creating, as smoothly as possible, a global order that recognises the place in the world that India will inevitably occupy. Our government's job is to guide the world to the recognition of this inevitability.

http://www.ndtv.com/opinion/in-nsg-fiasco-clear-lessons-for-india-on-handling-china-and-more-1423036
 
well even USA had its trade and economic relations with india ever since india became free nation and they even helped us in 1962 big time but then they shifted there focus to pakistan but after operation gibralter they abandonned you and both ayub khan and ZAB had to run to USSR and later do tashkent accord :D so owr relation with USA , UK , France or germany japan is also very old point is what now and good luck :)

Yes American did help you, no doubt you lot are the highest recipient of USAID anywhere in the world :)

BUT what I was referring to, the total Indian embrace of America and jumping into uncle sam lap, that process started in 90s. Before that, you lot had a ambiguous policy.

And yes exactly. What now?? ;)
 
What BS

- India lobbied and got 40+ countries to support it
-China also lobbied the same 40+ countries but they did not support it, went against China's wishes and voted against it's stand

Excepting Austria to support China's stand that Pak should get NSG is just ridiculous. Their problems are probabky different (do gooder, doesn't want nuclear system for one country and so on).

Doesn't matter.. China has the veto end of.. I can't fathom why that's so difficult to understand ?

Btw this supposed support you get from the US, Needs to be seen through the prism of US diplomacy.. It's very easy to play the good cop when you know there will be a bad cop to spoil the party in this case China, Their role is the same when it comes to the UNSC.. If India thinks that the US will allow India to prance in to either the UNSC P5 or NSG you'll are sadly mistaken.. US will play good cop, bad cop game when it suits them but not necessarily for the benefit of India, At the moment it's advantageous for them to be seen propping up India due to the power play in the north pacific and SCS

India lobbied heavily for the support of those 40 countries, China didnt have to lobby that hard cos they had the veto, and in the end except for a probable moral victory of the said support of those 40 countries (Now also in doubt) India ended up zero battered and bruised from the International real politik boxing ring

So the tally stands.. Round one China 1 India 0

Let the next round begin
 

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