India a partner, not ally: US envoy

[Bushroda]

I am just having my fun with him.

 

[Sam Dhanraj]

I thought this was "India a partner, not ally: US envoy" thread !!! maybe we should change the name of this thread and let the discussion/debate continue ...

 

[roadrunner]

Your argument is sinking low faster than a rock in brine. Once again, you are trying to make a lame argument with your fractured & utterly confused logic. Let me summarize what you've said so far.

Lower Caste are devoid of their free voting rights which is controlled by Upper Cate. You try to argue this point by saying that if given a free will lower caste would vote for a party which would offer them more jobs & other social perks. This arguement was busted by Adux, Bhangra & other members when they described you about the nature of politics in India. Next you say that Lower Caste are illiterate & therefore cannot make a proper judgement in voting. Now your arguement that GoI is trying to entice them with perks into voting for them. Now, if the lower castes are forced into voting against their will then why would government try so hard to lure them instead of getting their upper caste masters into submitting them to vote. Your current arguement is in total paradox to your earlier statement. You presented your own set of sources & none of them proclaimed that lower caste members are devoid of their free will to vote.

Will take this slowly I think, one step at a time for you dud so you understand.

The lower castes represent the MAJORITY of Indians. They are forced into voting for upper castes who abuse them even more based on two evidences

• they are significantly underrepresented in politics (Majority of Bharati politicians are upper caste)
• they apparently vote for & always did vote for Congress - even before the job quotas were given! - even now Congress pays only superficial attention to their plight (temporary remedies to impress the UN, such as job quotas that won't achieve anything in the long run - grass roots need to be changed)

You can see it is these two factors COMBINED (not like you were saying), that is good evidence for forced voting of the lower castes.

In every democracy (or functioning) democracy on the planet, it is the majority ethnic group that forms parliament (eg white caucasian people in America, african americans are the minority), but in Bharat, the minority group forms parliament, while the majority lower castes have no political representation. Why is that & how is this democracy?

 

[Bull]

they are significantly underrepresented in politics (Majority of Bharati politicians are upper caste)

What sort of reports/ statistics are you basing your argument on?

[*]they apparently vote for & always did vote for Congress - even before the job quotas were given! - even now Congress pays only superficial attention to their plight (temporary remedies to impress the UN,

Well the situation in India has improved hell alot in the past many years, hw did that happen?

such as job quotas that won't achieve anything in the long run - grass roots need to be changed)

Why? What are your assumption based on? Why dont you just pen in your arguments visa vis this one by one.

In every democracy (or functioning) democracy on the planet, it is the majority ethnic group that forms parliament (eg white caucasian people in America, african americans are the minority), but in Bharat, the minority group forms parliament, while the majority lower castes have no political representation. Why is that & how is this democracy?

Well go figure out the name of our leaders.

 

[Bushroda]

Will take this slowly I think, one step at a time for you dud so you understand.

The lower castes represent the MAJORITY of Indians. They are forced into voting for upper castes who abuse them even more based on two evidences

Instead of asking me to understand now start receiving rather than parroting your hackneyed tripe over & over again. By your confusion you are attempting to make a statement which isn't registering with anybody. Its nothing but your lame & pathetic attempt to cut through a stone wall using nothing but a butter knife.

they are significantly underrepresented in politics (Majority of Bharati politicians are upper caste)

If you are so thick in receiving, I can only feel the pain your dad must've gone through looking at your school reportcard every year.

Instead of making callow remarks that only ascertain your rancorous feelings towards India why don't you prove that majority of Indian politicians are upper caste? But I am fairly certain that instead of anything concrete you are once again going to turn up cliched denounciation of Indian Upper Caste politicians.

they apparently vote for & always did vote for Congress - even before the job quotas were given! - even now Congress pays only superficial attention to their plight (temporary remedies to impress the UN, such as job quotas that won't achieve anything in the long run - grass roots need to be changed)

Another of your statement that contradicts your previous arguement. Read your post#53 where you said that Dalit unity doesn't exist & now you are claiming that they unitedly vote for congress even though Congress got less percentage of votes than BJP. Your confusion is now becoming more & more amusing. I bet you can get your own show on Comedy Central.

22.5% quota is provided to them by the constitution of India since its inception on 26th January 1950. The constitution of India was framed by another dalit, honourable Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar. No political party can offer any sort of quotas unless it is endorsed in the constitution. Any amendments in the constitution needs 2/3rd majority of parliament & endorsed by the Supreme Court before it can come into effect. Dalits have 22.5% reservation & OBCs occupy 27% reservation. Supreme court ruling states that central government reservation cannot exceed beyond 50% so no matter what be any government that tries cannot increase quotas anymore. There goes your second point flying out of the window.

You can see it is these two factors COMBINED (not like you were saying), that is good evidence for forced voting of the lower castes.

Wow!!! quite a research you've done. In technical terms, this is what is known as GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out. You have based your trifle research on flawed & frivolous data & hoping to derive some sort of empirical equation & prove that you are somebody.

Seriously mate, you need to get a life otherwise at this rate you would end up being a fourty year old virgin trying to prove sun plus saturn is equal to Solar System.

In every democracy (or functioning) democracy on the planet, it is the majority ethnic group that forms parliament (eg white caucasian people in America, african americans are the minority), but in Bharat, the minority group forms parliament, while the majority lower castes have no political representation. Why is that & how is this democracy?

How many democracies have you seen? Once again I'll ask you to refer to the list of parliamentarians that you've been avoiding like plague. Indian voters choose their candidates from their constituencies. These elected candidates inturn choose their parliamentary leader based on their merit. The party that has 50% majority becomes the ruling party & the parliamentary leader of that party becomes the prime minister. I hope atleast this much registers with you.

 

[Adux]

I love the ignore button, But i could read his tripe in your posts when you qoute him,.....bugger

 

[roadrunner]

back for more..excuse the delays

Instead of making callow remarks that only ascertain your rancorous feelings towards India why don't you prove that majority of Indian politicians are upper caste? But I am fairly certain that instead of anything concrete you are once again going to turn up cliched denounciation of Indian Upper Caste politicians.

Dud, stop being so paranoid. There's no reason to get all excited and assume the worst.

Here is an Indian reference for you proving that upper castes form the majority of seats in your sham democracy

"For long, in many places 70 per cent to 80 per cent seats were open in the general category. The upper castes were using it. Right? Now they have been given 50 per cent of the total seats whereas the upper caste population is just 15 per cent. I think that is good enough. What more do the upper castes want?

It is a good deal that 15 per cent of India's population has 50 per cent of the seats. Do you want India's majority on the streets agitating against this 15 per cent? What do you want us to do? Do you want the majority population initiating the demand that let reservation be given on the basis of the proportion of the population of each caste?"
http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/may/16inter2.htm

My question still stands. Why do lower castes Bharatis vote in the people that abuse them? Don't give me the cock & bull that they are treated better than their own by the upper castes. Everyone knows full well if a lower caste got into power they would seriously address the issues of your lower castes. Do not insult the intelligence of the lower castes of Bharat.

Might get back to the rest later

 

[Bull]

"For long, in many places 70 per cent to 80 per cent seats were open in the general category. The upper castes were using it. Right? Now they have been given 50 per cent of the total seats whereas the upper caste population is just 15 per cent. I think that is good enough. What more do the upper castes want?

No General category means to those who win / earn without any reservation, it includes all. And that being the case whatever said below is rubbish.

It is a good deal that 15 per cent of India's population has 50 per cent of the seats. Do you want India's majority on the streets agitating against this 15 per cent? What do you want us to do? Do you want the majority population initiating the demand that let reservation be given on the basis of the proportion of the population of each caste?

"
http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/may/16inter2.htm

My question still stands. Why do lower castes Bharatis vote in the people that abuse them? Don't give me the cock & bull that they are treated better than their own by the upper castes.

If lower caste voted for uppe castes its because they look at the candidate and then from which caste he comes from.

Everyone knows full well if a lower caste got into power they would seriously address the issues of your lower castes. Do not insult the intelligence of the lower castes of Bharat. Might get back to the rest later

Humans and humans whichever caste they belong to. Power corrupts.

 

[Adux]

If a muslim can kill another muslim, then why cant a lower caste vote for a upper caste or vice versa!!!!

 

[Bushroda]

Dud, stop being so paranoid. There's no reason to get all excited and assume the worst. Here is an Indian reference for you proving that upper castes form the majority of seats in your sham democracy.

"For long, in many places 70 per cent to 80 per cent seats were open in the general category. The upper castes were using it. Right? Now they have been given 50 per cent of the total seats whereas the upper caste population is just 15 per cent. I think that is good enough. What more do the upper castes want?

It is a good deal that 15 per cent of India's population has 50 per cent of the seats. Do you want India's majority on the streets agitating against this 15 per cent? What do you want us to do? Do you want the majority population initiating the demand that let reservation be given on the basis of the proportion of the population of each caste?"
http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/may/16inter2.htm

I am sure you do not even have a slight inkling of what your own source speaks about. Its a discussion in regard to reservation of seats in Educational institutes & not Parliament, Legislative assemblies or government councils.

Let me explain you in brief so that you make out the difference of dust from sand.

22.5% seats in all educational institutes are reserved for Scheduled Caste & Scheduled Tribes. 27% seats are reserved for Other Backward Castes(OBCs) in all educational institutes barring elite central government institutes like IITs, IIMs, IISc. The reservation at State level is even higher. Tamilnadu has 70% reservation. UP has 60% reservation. But apart from this the rest is for General Category meaning 'Open for all' and that includes SC/ST, OBCs(even though they have reservations). So, if an OBC or a dalit candidate scores high marks, he can put up for merit in General category without taking the benefit of reservation that is awarded to him. Upper Caste do not have any sort of reservation. They have to fight their way through merit to get a seat.

The source that you have presented speaks of reservation for OBCs in elite central government institutes like IITs, IIMs as I spoke of them before. Now, IITs & IIMs are premier institutes that have relied solely on merit except for 22.5% reservation for SC/ST. Because of their open merit policy these institutes invite fierce competition where only 1% of the applicants get selected. More than 300000 students take up exam for IIT enterance & only 4000 get selected. The fact that these institutes invite top brains in India is what has made them the pioneer institutes & given them world recognition.

The whole fiasco is about providing 27% reservation to OBCs in these institutes which others are opposing giving the arguement that the merit shouldn't be compromised. There are over half a million enginnering seats in India. 1000 less in IITs isn't going to make any difference to OBCs.

My question still stands. Why do lower castes Bharatis vote in the people that abuse them? Don't give me the cock & bull that they are treated better than their own by the upper castes. Everyone knows full well if a lower caste got into power they would seriously address the issues of your lower castes.

Mate, you seriously don't have any question. It is obvious that you just cannot look beyond your obscurantist view. You present your own set of sources that speak otherwise(I am sure you don't even read them or fully comprehend them before posting). Here read this carefully

Caste-Based Parties

One irony of Indian politics is that its modern secular democracy has enhanced rather than reduced the political salience of traditional forms of social identity such as caste. Part of the explanation for this development is that India's political parties have found the caste-based selection of candidates and appeals to the caste-based interests of the Indian electorate to be an effective way to win popular support. More fundamental has been the economic development and social mobility of those groups officially designated as Backward Classes and Scheduled Castes. Accounting for 52 and 15 percent of the population, respectively, the Backward Classes and Scheduled Castes, or Dalits as they prefer to be called, constitute a diverse range of middle, lower, and outcaste groups who have come to wield substantial power in most states. Indeed, one of the dramas of modern Indian politics has been the Backward Classes and Dalits' jettisoning of their political subordination to upper castes and their assertion of their own interests.

The Backward Classes are such a substantial constituency that almost all parties vie for their support. For instance, the Congress (I) in Maharashtra has long relied on Backward Classes' backing for its political success. The 1990s have seen a growing number of cases where parties, relying primarily on Backward Classes' support, often in alliance with Dalits and Muslims, catapult to power in India's states. Janata Dal governments in Bihar and Karnataka are excellent examples of this strategy. An especially important development is the success of the Samajwadi Party, which under the leadership of Mulayam Singh Yadav won the 1993 assembly elections in India's most populous state, Uttar Pradesh, relying almost exclusively on Backward Classes and Muslim support in a coalition with the Dalit-supported BSP.

The growing support of the BSP also reflects the importance of caste-based politics and the assertiveness of the Dalits in particular. The BSP was founded by Kanshi Ram on April 13, 1984, the birthday of B.R. Ambedkar. Born as a Dalit in Punjab, Kanshi Ram resigned from his position as a government employee in 1964 and, after working in various political positions, founded the All-India Backward, Scheduled Caste, Scheduled Tribe, Other Backward Classes, and Minority Communities Employees Federation (BAMCEF) in 1978. Although both the BAMCEF and BSP pursue strategies of building support among Backward Classes, Scheduled Tribes, and Muslims as well as Dalits, Kanshi Ram has been most successful in building support among the Dalit Chamar (Leatherworker) caste in North India. In the November 1993 Uttar Pradesh state elections, Ram's BSP achieved the best showing of any Dalit-based party by winning sixty-seven seats. At the same time, the BSP increased its representation in the Madhya Pradesh state legislature from two to twelve seats. On June 1, 1995, the BSP withdrew from the state government of Uttar Pradesh and, with the support of the BJP, formed a new government, making its leader, Mayawati, the first Dalit ever to become a chief minister of Uttar Pradesh. The alliance, however, was seen by observers as doomed because of political differences.

http://www.country-studies.com/india/caste-based-parties.html

Nowhere does it speak of lower cate subjugation or their hands being castrated for not voting for upper caste candidate.

Do not insult the intelligence of the lower castes of Bharat.

Did the lower caste come to you with their plight that you are so passionately trying to defend them like a Knight in a shinning armor? If you are so moved by human miseries that your heart bleeds for every crying soul in the world then atleast research carefully where you need to shed your valuable tears. There is no dearth of learned individuals in lower caste who can make a proper presentation of their case instead of you trying to do so armed with your confusion. The fissures in your arguement have grown wider than the Grand Canyon. There isn't enough soil for you to dust it up.

 

[blitz]

Ok people, you should be able to tell by now, whether a person actually wants to discuss and learn, or just impose his own bigoted agenda. Like the proverb goes, "you can wake someone who is sleeping, but you can never wake someone who is pretending to sleep".

Just drop it.

 

[Bushroda]

What makes you think I have any sort of desire to educate him? He has subscribed to his own agnostic beliefs & I am absolutely OK with it. But, he is attempting to make a statement here with his confusion. Basically a challenge & thats where it is our responsibility to defend it. There are others who do not subscribe to his views & they should see the clear picture rather than believe in his existence of Avalon.

Still, why do you take everything so seriously? Discussion is for fun, so enjoy it.