India a partner, not ally: US envoy

[Contrarian]

Welcome to the forum bhangra12345!!

 

[Neo]

Welcome aboard Bhangra, please introduce yourself in the members intro section.
Thanks!

Neo

 

[roadrunner]

"But then let us not get facts in the way when dealing with India, we simply shouldnt......."


bug off, road runner.

A dalit can be hindu malayali from malabar living presently in tamilnadu. He will vote differently from a hindu hindi bihari living in tamilnadu. If you cant get it into your thick skull, the only hope is break the skull off, like this.

P.S: Quote is by someone on the same forum. I seem to remember it as Samudra. If it is by someone else, it is by that person only.

so you're saying Dalits are treated like scum in some states and alright in others. It still doesnt explain why they keep on voting in upper castes and not their own, who really would clamp down on the horrendours crimes of the upper castes against their fellows. This leads to 2 conclusions - Dalits are either very selfish & stupid, OR Dalits are being forced to vote for these nationalist parties or whatever. Do you honestly think Dalits do not care about their fellows in other parts of Bharat? Do you honestly think that Congress is a better alternative to any Dalit than a pro Dalit party who would remove all injustices to Dalits in the Bharat? The natural conclusion is that the Dalit vote is being forced in the world's greatest democracy to vote for upper caste politicians.

 

[bhangra12345]

so you're saying Dalits are treated like scum in some states and alright in others. It still doesnt explain why they keep on voting in upper castes and not their own, who really would clamp down on the horrendours crimes of the upper castes against their fellows. This leads to 2 conclusions - Dalits are either very selfish & stupid, OR Dalits are being forced to vote for these nationalist parties or whatever. Do you honestly think Dalits do not care about their fellows in other parts of Bharat? Do you honestly think that Congress is a better alternative to any Dalit than a pro Dalit party who would remove all injustices to Dalits in the Bharat? The natural conclusion is that the Dalit vote is being forced in the world's greatest democracy to vote for upper caste politicians.

That you have a single identity, doesnt mean others should also have it. A person can be a 1)hindu -religion
2)dalit -caste
3)having x level of income -employment and education level
4) tamil speaking -language
5) in kerala -state
6)palakkad -sub regionalism

If any(even one) of these factors change, their voting pattern changes. get it into your thick skull. Every muslim doesnt yearn for only ummah, otherwise Bangladesh wouldnt have formed. and then muslims have shia and sunni. and then muslims in Pakistan can be from Punjab or Sindh. they can be mohajir or non mohajir. they can be from karachi or other places in sindh. The list goes on.

otherwise muslims in bengal wouldnt have voted for Mujibir and muslims in west pakistan wouldnt have voted for bhutto. They both were muslims but their other identities are different. It is only p*g heads like you, who believe that muslims/ any person have only one common identity.

This will be my last reply to you on this line. One more post on this line and off you go to ignore list. I prefer not dealing with thick skulls after a period of time.

 

[roadrunner]

That you have a single identity, doesnt mean others should also have it. A person can be a 1)hindu -religion
2)dalit -caste
3)having x level of income -employment and education level
4) tamil speaking -language
5) in kerala -state
6)palakkad -sub regionalism

If any(even one) of these factors change, their voting pattern changes. get it into your thick skull. Every muslim doesnt yearn for only ummah, otherwise Bangladesh wouldnt have formed. and then muslims have shia and sunni. and then muslims in Pakistan can be from Punjab or Sindh. they can be mohajir or non mohajir. they can be from karachi or other places in sindh. The list goes on.

otherwise muslims in bengal wouldnt have voted for Mujibir and muslims in west pakistan wouldnt have voted for bhutto. They both were muslims but their other identities are different. It is only p*g heads like you, who believe that muslims/ any person have only one common identity.

This will be my last reply to you on this line. One more post on this line and off you go to ignore list. I prefer not dealing with thick skulls after a period of time.

Dud, you're getting too worked up for some reason & missing the point. It's nothing to do with this or that factor changing. Lower castes form the majority of the Indian population. If a party if allowed to democratically compete that gives them a better lifestyle, they would vote for it. This is one of the benefits of democracy. Now your suggestion that the Dalits and lower castes would not vote for a party that acts in their interests because they each have different interests in each state is ludicrous and misses the point. Dalits have a common problem of universal apartheid discrimination in India. If any party reformed the law & order situation so that the primary considerations of the Dalits were taken into account, and a Dalit only party came forward, all these lower castes would vote for it and would win the election. The fact that it doesn't occur suggests to me that democracy is just a sham in India - and of course this is not accounting for the fact that there's huge illiteracy there which would make any elections irrelevant anyway since illterate people probably won't make good decisions on who to choose.

PS The East/West Pakistan is not a good example..Everyone is Muslim and the elections were competed. Under the India scenario, everyone must be Dalit and the elections competed. But this isn't the case, there's 4 castes competing for votes.

 

[Keysersoze]

O.K. quick point......You may disagree with someone but do not let it descend into another thread closure please. If you feel steamed by a particular member either take a minute away from the computer and come back when calmer (I appreciate the irony of me saying this ) or add the person to your ignore list. Name calling wins no extra points.

Thanks
Keyser

 

[Bushroda]

It's nothing to do with this or that factor changing. Lower castes form the majority of the Indian population. If a party if allowed to democratically compete that gives them a better lifestyle, they would vote for it. This is one of the benefits of democracy. Now your suggestion that the Dalits and lower castes would not vote for a party that acts in their interests because they each have different interests in each state is ludicrous and misses the point. Dalits have a common problem of universal apartheid discrimination in India. If any party reformed the law & order situation so that the primary considerations of the Dalits were taken into account, and a Dalit only party came forward, all these lower castes would vote for it and would win the election.

Awww C'mon Man!!! The whole bible has been read before you & you are still asking who was Judas.

Political parties don't form in air. They are brought up by grass root people over a long period of time. People vote for these parties based on issues which can be social, local or political in nature. Lower Caste or the matter of fact any caste in India doesn't follow the way of Ummah to unite for a common cause. Dalits who have escaped from this so called 'Social appartheid' arn't going to bother themselves into voting for a cause that doesn't concerns them. And it has already been explained by several of the members that people in different places have different issues before them.

The fact that it doesn't occur suggests to me that democracy is just a sham in India - and of course this is not accounting for the fact that there's huge illiteracy there which would make any elections irrelevant anyway since illterate people probably won't make good decisions on who to choose.

Is this the reason why there is no democracy in Pakistan? You are contradicting yourself here. At one place you say that Dalits should vote for a party that supports the cause of Dalits & now you are advocating that they cannot make a fair judge ment in voting as they are illiterates. Make up your mind which seems to be riddled with confusion.

You don't need to hold a doctorate degree in rocket science to realize the injustice perpetuated on you. So even an illiterate dalit can understand what wrong is happening to him making his resolve & judgement clear while voting.

 

[roadrunner]

Awww C'mon Man!!! The whole bible has been read before you & you are still asking who was Judas.

Political parties don't form in air. They are brought up by grass root people over a long period of time. People vote for these parties based on issues which can be social, local or political in nature. Lower Caste or the matter of fact any caste in India doesn't follow the way of Ummah to unite for a common cause. Dalits who have escaped from this so called 'Social appartheid' arn't going to bother themselves into voting for a cause that doesn't concerns them. And it has already been explained by several of the members that people in different places have different issues before them.

Dalit togetherness doesn't exist. I've explained this. So forget that point your making. What I'm saying is that say you have a Dalit leader of a partywho promises to increase Dalit secuurity and lower caste security in general, raise their job quotas etc. The lower castes will vote for him, the upper castes will not. Now you explain to me why no Dalit leader of a political party in India has been allowed to do this? You call this democracy?

Is this the reason why there is no democracy in Pakistan? You are contradicting yourself here. At one place you say that Dalits should vote for a party that supports the cause of Dalits & now you are advocating that they cannot make a fair judge ment in voting as they are illiterates. Make up your mind which seems to be riddled with confusion.

There's no contradiction. I'm suggesting two factors that make India a sham democracy (there are others). If you correct these two factors in the ways suggested, India might be a true democracy. In other words, you need to allow Dalits freedom to vote for their Dalit leaders and lower caste parties AND educate everyone. One without the other will not improve Bharati democracy.

You don't need to hold a doctorate degree in rocket science to realize the injustice perpetuated on you. So even an illiterate dalit can understand what wrong is happening to him making his resolve & judgement clear while voting.

If the Dalit has an upper caste telling him who to vote, else he will parade him naked or make him eat faeces or chop his hand off, then the Dalit will put up with the injustice. In fact this is what happens. This is no democracy.

 

[bhangra12345]

Dud, you're getting too worked up for some reason & missing the point. It's nothing to do with this or that factor changing. Lower castes form the majority of the Indian population. If a party if allowed to democratically compete that gives them a better lifestyle, they would vote for it. This is one of the benefits of democracy. Now your suggestion that the Dalits and lower castes would not vote for a party that acts in their interests because they each have different interests in each state is ludicrous and misses the point. Dalits have a common problem of universal apartheid discrimination in India. If any party reformed the law & order situation so that the primary considerations of the Dalits were taken into account, and a Dalit only party came forward, all these lower castes would vote for it and would win the election. The fact that it doesn't occur suggests to me that democracy is just a sham in India - and of course this is not accounting for the fact that there's huge illiteracy there which would make any elections irrelevant anyway since illterate people probably won't make good decisions on who to choose.

PS The East/West Pakistan is not a good example..Everyone is Muslim and the elections were competed. Under the India scenario, everyone must be Dalit and the elections competed. But this isn't the case, there's 4 castes competing for votes.

You propogate lies in order to push your agenda. Their population is only 16%. I gave you the authentic proof. Now dont parrot your words. and then there are subdivisions in the SCs(dalits), for example in andhra pradesh, madiga and mala compete with each other, both are in the category of SCs.

 

[bhangra12345]

O.K. quick point......You may disagree with someone but do not let it descend into another thread closure please. If you feel steamed by a particular member either take a minute away from the computer and come back when calmer (I appreciate the irony of me saying this ) or add the person to your ignore list. Name calling wins no extra points.

Thanks
Keyser

Keyser

Disagreement over something is alright with me. Many arguments end like that. You can easily see the difference, where as I give him figures, links etc etc. He says dalits have atrocities on them and so India is not a democracy. All his word weaving is that only one line. No other thing.

He first pushes an agenda and then tells absolute lies to complement them. When I show him the facts, I dont think he even cares to read them but again parrots out the agenda, again repeating the same fu*king lies. He is simply a troll who disguises himself.

 

[roadrunner]

You propogate lies in order to push your agenda. Their population is only 16%. I gave you the authentic proof. Now dont parrot your words. and then there are subdivisions in the SCs(dalits), for example in andhra pradesh, madiga and mala compete with each other, both are in the category of SCs.

Dud, I thought I made it to your ignore list!! Ah well, better luck next time. 16% might be the Dalit population, but it isn't the lower caste population. Lower castes form the majority of the Indian population, and are systematically abused, hence the term "lower caste". Only 14% of the population of Bharat is upper caste

Brahmins, Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas constitute upper caste while Shudras and untouchables categorized as low caste and untouchables. Upper caste represents only 15% of Indian population while Shudras and Dalits represent 85% of Indian population.http://www.dalitnetwork.org/go?/dfn/blog/2006/05/

Keyser

Disagreement over something is alright with me. Many arguments end like that. You can easily see the difference, where as I give him figures, links etc etc. He says dalits have atrocities on them and so India is not a democracy. All his word weaving is that only one line. No other thing.

He first pushes an agenda and then tells absolute lies to complement them. When I show him the facts, I dont think he even cares to read them but again parrots out the agenda, again repeating the same fu*king lies. He is simply a troll who disguises himself.

You havent given any figures except for 16% Dalits. In all my posts I've mentioned Dalits and lower castes. Dalits are just a broad categorization, but all the lower castes that get the abuse are around 85%, which is the important figure. 85% should be enough to vote any pro lower caste government in, but it doesnt happen because Indian democracy does not exist. It's like African American parties ruling American politics getting the vote of white Americans who are discriminated against in society - it just would not happen in a more realistic democracy.

 

[Bushroda]

Dalit togetherness doesn't exist. I've explained this. So forget that point your making. What I'm saying is that say you have a Dalit leader of a partywho promises to increase Dalit secuurity and lower caste security in general, raise their job quotas etc. The lower castes will vote for him, the upper castes will not. Now you explain to me why no Dalit leader of a political party in India has been allowed to do this? You call this democracy?

What knowledge do you have of Indian politics? By your posting style you appear to be totally ignorant yet volatile emotional pubescent. If you are unaware about the subject then I do wonder how you can even talk on this topic with the laissez faire that you do exhibit.

If you have missed it then let me reiterate it for you.. Scheduleded Castes & Scheduled Tribes have an unchallenged 27% quota in Government Jobs & Higher education institues. Besides this they are even eligible for General category incase they qualify through merit.

There's no contradiction. I'm suggesting two factors that make India a sham democracy (there are others). If you correct these two factors in the ways suggested, India might be a true democracy. In other words, you need to allow Dalits freedom to vote for their Dalit leaders and lower caste parties AND educate everyone. One without the other will not improve Bharati democracy.

Utter sanctimonious tripe marred with usual confusion. You arn't suggesting anything but repeating something that you have no clue about. On one hand you say that Lower Caste are being forced against their will by the upper caste & then next you say that Lower Caste cannot make a proper judgement since they are illiterate. Your confusion is clear as a running water.

In one of my posts I have provided you a list with current members of Parliament which I presume you havn't even bother to look at. I suggest you have a look an see for yourself the current composition of Indian Parliament. I can see whats coming next.. 'Those Lower cast MPs are puppets put up by Higher Caste to mask the Sham democracy in India'.

If the Dalit has an upper caste telling him who to vote, else he will parade him naked or make him eat faeces or chop his hand off, then the Dalit will put up with the injustice. In fact this is what happens. This is no democracy.

You are making loads of tripe that go without substance. Basically, you are attempting to interject your banal statement that hardly requires a stupendously silly sermon(as you are doing),or is it your attempt to disguise your own confusion. Clear off your own confusion before you make statements regarding the validity of Indian democracy. There are 6 billion people in this world & if one utterly confused individual doesn't considers India a democracy, it hardly makes a difference.

 

[roadrunner]

What knowledge do you have of Indian politics? By your posting style you appear to be totally ignorant yet volatile emotional pubescent. If you are unaware about the subject then I do wonder how you can even talk on this topic with the laissez faire that you do exhibit.

If you have missed it then let me reiterate it for you.. Scheduleded Castes & Scheduled Tribes have an unchallenged 27% quota in Government Jobs & Higher education institues. Besides this they are even eligible for General category incase they qualify through merit.

There might very well be government quotas for Dalits due to the discrimination they get in society, and this is a step in the right direction. However this is only a very small part of the story. Generally the GoI wants votes from all parts of the communities, it needs to save face in the international community, and in generally surveys have shown that Dalits are subject to huge discrmination within society (examples see below). one example

Official records show that the rate of atrocities against Dalits continues at about 26,000 a year. That figure is enormous but is unlikely to represent anything like the true extent of caste-based violence against Dalits. A seminal study last year, “Untouchability in Rural India”, found that in 28 per cent. of villages surveyed Dalits faced discrimination in entry into police stations and that in 32 per cent. they encountered discrimination in how they were treated in police stations.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/cm070508/halltext/70508h0005.htm

There's clearly many aspects of Dalit day to day living that is discriminatory. Indian government turns a blind eye to these things, whilst projecting the government quotas on Muslims, Dalits and so on for the very few government jobs on offer. It does help the Dalits for sure, but only a very few of them. In general, they are denied their right at the ground level. Even the UN acknowledges what i'm saying, the least you could do is do the same, else you're just lying in bed with racists.

Though India has sought to overcome the inequities of caste and discrimination through affirmative action—reserving quotas in education, government jobs and political bodies—these policies have benefited only a few. The highest office in the land, that of the largely ceremonial President, is today held by a Dalit, K.R. Narayanan. But all the horrors of India’s caste system persist at the grassroots; attempts to defy this rigid social order invariably result in violence or economic retaliation.
http://www.unesco.org/courier/2001_09/uk/doss22.htm

For these reasons, Dalits are kept subjugated by the Upper Castes and cannot bring into the mainstream politics those parties that would end Dalit discrimination such as caste violence and police immunity to perpetrators of Dalit crimes. One this immunity is removed, then the Dalits I believe will be able to finally vote freely and new mainstream political parties that really make a difference for Dalits will come to the fore. This will be the start of Bharati democracy.

Shamelessly some Indian MEP's had the gall to oppose a bill condemning Dalit discrimination
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/european.parliament.opposes.dalit.discrimination/9424.htm

Utter sanctimonious tripe marred with usual confusion. You arn't suggesting anything but repeating something that you have no clue about. On one hand you say that Lower Caste are being forced against their will by the upper caste & then next you say that Lower Caste cannot make a proper judgement since they are illiterate. Your confusion is clear as a running water.

Well, it's not what I said. I think instead of looking up words which you don't know how to use for the most part, focus on writing a valid response to a valid point. Now, the simple point you need to argue is that for India aka Bharat to be a true democracy it needs to BOTH ensure that Dalits and other lower castes are not bullied into voting for the upper caste politicians that will bully them further AND eliminate illiteracy. Once these two have been achieved, Bharat will be a genuine democracy, since right now it is not.

In one of my posts I have provided you a list with current members of Parliament which I presume you havn't even bother to look at. I suggest you have a look an see for yourself the current composition of Indian Parliament. I can see whats coming next.. 'Those Lower cast MPs are puppets put up by Higher Caste to mask the Sham democracy in India'.

Actually, I could see who was a low caste and who was not. But the lower castes form 85% of the population, and I know that Indian politics is DOMINATED by the Upper castes. Absolute values are irrelevant.

You are making loads of tripe that go without substance. Basically, you are attempting to interject your banal statement that hardly requires a stupendously silly sermon(as you are doing),or is it your attempt to disguise your own confusion. Clear off your own confusion before you make statements regarding the validity of Indian democracy. There are 6 billion people in this world & if one utterly confused individual doesn't considers India a democracy, it hardly makes a difference.

It's me and some very intellectual people that consider India aka Bharat to be a sham democracy, not least an educated literary prize winner.

 

[bhangra12345]

Roadrunner,

I have decided not to ignore you. Why miss all the fun?

I will have my daily laugh after reading your posts. so basically waiting for your posts

 

[BATMAN]

I guess readers should be laughing at you, instead.
What you wrote is crap, if you disagree than read it again.
You guys have no substance in your posts, you are here to learn english because that's clearly your handicap.
Let me say it in Indian style 'Iron out your English'