In Indonesia, 1998 violence against ethnic Chinese remains unaddressed

[anas_nurhafidz]

As always. See those comments with junk pics

indochinese

 

[Wolfwind]

China has a stupid principle than. Let me give you an example, do you know what backlash Indonesia would get right now if they rioted and killled 1000 American expats?

Yes, you can bet aircraft carrier and cruise missile will be targeting Indonesian regime. Expect a regime change..

Hm... Okay but I think many of the Chinese Indonesians moved there during the 17th century so China doesn't really feel obliged to help them (?) They aren't recent immigrants and they have their own subculture and dialect with Indonesian accent and slangs, which isn't found in China. They even eat a special kind of food called Peranakan cuisine (or Chinese Indonesian cuisine), which includes dishes like "Nasi Tim Ayam".

Certainly I think if Chinese expats were killed, China would react. Expat meaning recent migrant, white collar professional worker in international company. But many of the Chinese Indonesians aren't "expats", they have been there for decades, some even centuries. Do they have any connections to China? Or what if they have connections to ROC (Taiwan) instead?

So I don't really know how to feel about this issue, but I'm just explaining why I think China may not feel responsible for them.

 

[Nike]

this kinda fucking up thread, filled with hatred and conspiration theories

 

[Nilgiri]

this kinda fucking up thread, filled with hatred and conspiration theories

Can you tell me what your take on the whole thing is? I am interested to know.

 

[Brainsucker]

It is certainly more interesting than this grim topic

I also interest with that too.
The question is, Does Nihonjin has another account (his real Indonesian flag account) in here?
And for the forum, what forum is it?
And if he has an Indonesian flag account, does he post in this thread?
Interesting, isn't it? Make me very very curious.

 

[antonius123]

this kinda fucking up thread, filled with hatred and conspiration theories

Kindly clarify - do you think the article is wrong? or could you show which of my statement that is not correct? the only one who blatantly show hatred here is pr1v4t33r as he doesnt show regret and doesnt care about what happen on chinese during 98 https://defence.pk/members/pr1v4t33r.164563/

 

[Nike]

Can you tell me what your take on the whole thing is? I am interested to know.

this was mistakes in our history, the real thing is much more complex, a real mess and full of power struggles between factions within military and other parties. And this not a simple progrom against Chinese Indonesian like many Chinese poster in pdf believes, although most of them live thousands miles away and just getting a little bit information from internet.

Before the fall of Soeharto become more imminent in March 1998, the one big question arises, who will lead Indonesia after Soeharto? Some hardcore elements within Army wants the continuation of military dominated Indonesia, the other want Civilian rules and the end of military involvement in politics, the Islamist faction want Sharia, to add to the confution is the rising problem of separatist movement in Aceh, Papua and Maluku instigated by many who believe Indonesia will share the fate of Yugoslavia.

The problem is some hardcore elements within Army wants to create a justified reason and so they can impose military law and order to control the capital (Jakarta) and cornering their political opponents by guns barrel, in other word coup d'etat. So within that pretext, they creating a condition perfect for riots and other misshaps happened in Jakarta and other area in Indonesia. They pull out troops and police forces from Jakarta area (at the time police is under army command, unlike today which is under direct order from President) under disguise of training and among other reasons. And so many rioters and looter from rural area can "invade" Jakarta, and then May mayhem happened. And why so many Chinese become casualties in this incidents, it just happened many business districts and large shops and mall being run by Chinese ethnics, i can give u example so many casualties from other ethnics in Tanah abang and Borobudur mall cases who mostly owned by Padang and Arab ethnics. This riot was not intended and targeted against a single ethnic, but to create havoc and mayhem in Jakarta so the Army can impose military law and pressuring their civilian politician to abide by their will.

But their plan is foiled by the Marine Corps and other elements within Army who lean toward reformation, who still placed their loyalties toward President and constitution. The Marines commander who just recently came from Surabaya shook himself and dont believe from what he see, he found the Jakarta area is empty from any military formation and rioter can easily moving from place to place unhindered. And so to prevent a much larger tragedies happened the Marines quickly gather their troops and even transport the bulks from Surabaya which located 800 miles away from Jakarta in single night. They quickly restore the order and guarded most of area affected by riots. But the problems is not end just like this.

The hardcore faction within army, dont want to loose face again marines who foiled their plan quickly gather their strength back to Jakarta and even surrounding Istana Merdeka and Negara with tanks and artillery and put more pressure toward Soeharto to give them mandate to impose military law. But instead their move is coincided with large rally of Indonesian students who at the same time occupy National assembly and demands Soeharto resignation and back of civilian return to power in Indonesia. Facing with that, Soeharto cleverly choose to resign from his post and pick B J Habibie, a civilian as the next president.

 

[Nilgiri]

this was mistakes in our history, the real thing is much more complex, a real mess and full of power struggles between factions within military and other parties. And this not a simple progrom against Chinese Indonesian like many Chinese poster in pdf believes, although most of them live thousands miles away and just getting a little bit information from internet.

Before the fall of Soeharto become more imminent in March 1998, the one big question arises, who will lead Indonesia after Soeharto? Some hardcore elements within Army wants the continuation of military dominated Indonesia, the other want Civilian rules and the end of military involvement in politics, the Islamist faction want Sharia, to add to the confution is the rising problem of separatist movement in Aceh, Papua and Maluku instigated by many who believe Indonesia will share the fate of Yugoslavia.

The problem is some hardcore elements within Army wants to create a justified reason and so they can impose military law and order to control the capital (Jakarta) and cornering their political opponents by guns barrel, in other word coup d'etat. So within that pretext, they creating a condition perfect for riots and other misshaps happened in Jakarta and other area in Indonesia. They pull out troops and police forces from Jakarta area (at the time police is under army command, unlike today which is under direct order from President) under disguise of training and among other reasons. And so many rioters and looter from rural area can "invade" Jakarta, and then May mayhem happened. And why so many Chinese become casualties in this incidents, it just happened many business districts and large shops and mall being run by Chinese ethnics, i can give u example so many casualties from other ethnics in Tanah abang and Borobudur mall cases who mostly owned by Padang and Arab ethnics. This riot was not intended and targeted against a single ethnic, but to create havoc and mayhem in Jakarta so the Army can impose military law and pressuring their civilian politician to abide by their will.

But their plan is foiled by the Marine Corps and other elements within Army who lean toward reformation, who still placed their loyalties toward President and constitution. The Marines commander who just recently came from Surabaya shook himself and dont believe from what he see, he found the Jakarta area is empty from any military formation and rioter can easily moving from place to place unhindered. And so to prevent a much larger tragedies happened the Marines quickly gather their troops and even transport the bulks from Surabaya which located 800 miles away from Jakarta in single night. They quickly restore the order and guarded most of area affected by riots. But the problems is not end just like this.

The hardcore faction within army, dont want to loose face again marines who foiled their plan quickly gather their strength back to Jakarta and even surrounding Istana Merdeka and Negara with tanks and artillery and put more pressure toward Soeharto to give them mandate to impose military law. But instead their move is coincided with large rally of Indonesian students who at the same time occupy National assembly and demands Soeharto resignation and back of civilian return to power in Indonesia. Facing with that, Soeharto cleverly choose to resign from his post and pick B J Habibie, a civilian as the next president.

Yes I have seen something similar in a documentary that I watched a cpl years back.

Singapore news was quite full of propaganda though I did not realise it at the time....since Singapore is mostly Chinese ethnicity and the govt tends to always want to portray neighbours a lot worse than they are to help Singapore domestic image.

Thanks for your post....I like to have all the different perspectives.

It is like the Akira Kurosawa movie Rashomon.

 

[Nike]

The resignation of Soeharto largely being seen as the defat of the hardcore military faction in those struggle of power and served as the laying foundation of the return of the real democracy in Indonesia.

The army found the students is their real opponents in this power struggle and several times they are trying to discourages the students rally and shoot them indiscriminately. But instead to discourage them, those acts giving more symphaty for the students and even the number of high rank officers who lean toward reformation keeps growing and they lead to transformation and modernization of today TNI.

 

[antonius123]

this was mistakes in our history, the real thing is much more complex, a real mess and full of power struggles between factions within military and other parties. And this not a simple progrom against Chinese Indonesian like many Chinese poster in pdf believes, although most of them live thousands miles away and just getting a little bit information from internet.

Before the fall of Soeharto become more imminent in March 1998, the one big question arises, who will lead Indonesia after Soeharto? Some hardcore elements within Army wants the continuation of military dominated Indonesia, the other want Civilian rules and the end of military involvement in politics, the Islamist faction want Sharia, to add to the confution is the rising problem of separatist movement in Aceh, Papua and Maluku instigated by many who believe Indonesia will share the fate of Yugoslavia.

The problem is some hardcore elements within Army wants to create a justified reason and so they can impose military law and order to control the capital (Jakarta) and cornering their political opponents by guns barrel, in other word coup d'etat. So within that pretext, they creating a condition perfect for riots and other misshaps happened in Jakarta and other area in Indonesia. They pull out troops and police forces from Jakarta area (at the time police is under army command, unlike today which is under direct order from President) under disguise of training and among other reasons. And so many rioters and looter from rural area can "invade" Jakarta, and then May mayhem happened. And why so many Chinese become casualties in this incidents, it just happened many business districts and large shops and mall being run by Chinese ethnics, i can give u example so many casualties from other ethnics in Tanah abang and Borobudur mall cases who mostly owned by Padang and Arab ethnics. This riot was not intended and targeted against a single ethnic, but to create havoc and mayhem in Jakarta so the Army can impose military law and pressuring their civilian politician to abide by their will.

But their plan is foiled by the Marine Corps and other elements within Army who lean toward reformation, who still placed their loyalties toward President and constitution. The Marines commander who just recently came from Surabaya shook himself and dont believe from what he see, he found the Jakarta area is empty from any military formation and rioter can easily moving from place to place unhindered. And so to prevent a much larger tragedies happened the Marines quickly gather their troops and even transport the bulks from Surabaya which located 800 miles away from Jakarta in single night. They quickly restore the order and guarded most of area affected by riots. But the problems is not end just like this.

The hardcore faction within army, dont want to loose face again marines who foiled their plan quickly gather their strength back to Jakarta and even surrounding Istana Merdeka and Negara with tanks and artillery and put more pressure toward Soeharto to give them mandate to impose military law. But instead their move is coincided with large rally of Indonesian students who at the same time occupy National assembly and demands Soeharto resignation and back of civilian return to power in Indonesia. Facing with that, Soeharto cleverly choose to resign from his post and pick B J Habibie, a civilian as the next president.

There is nothing new that you bring here, except you fail to address the article story.

If you read carefully the article, your story has been addressed well though not detail like yours.

But if you care to read the article and my information, you will see that the issue discussed here is not about : "Who is the actor behind the 98 riots", but about: "98 violence against ethnic chinese remain unaddressed" and also "sentiment anti chinese that still remain until now".

Your effort to bring this kind of story is showing how you are like other Indonesian who pretend that this issue is non existence (98 rape & sentiment anti chinese that still remain) and bring this "Soeharto plot" story as diversion. This is an act of hypocrisy that Indonesian majority like to play.

Eventhough the 98 riot is programmed by Suharto regime as you and other Indonesian like to bring to foreigner, but the easiness of mass to be provoked during 98 riots, or tanjung balai riot has shown how "sentiment anti chinese" was strong; and remain strong until now. You cant deny my information as I am telling the truth (have evidence).

 

[Nilgiri]

Your effort to bring this kind of story is showing how you are like other Indonesian who pretend that this issue is non existence (sentiment anti chinese) and bring this story as diversion.

Are you a Chinese indonesian (out of curiousity)?

What level of anti-Chinese sentiment would you say exists in the majority indonesians as a rough % ? Are there areas where it is especially high and how high would you say?

 

[Nike]

Yes I have seen something similar in a documentary that I watched a cpl years back.

Singapore news was quite full of propaganda though I did not realise it at the time....since Singapore is mostly Chinese ethnicity and the govt tends to always want to portray neighbours a lot worse than they are to help Singapore domestic image.

Thanks for your post....I like to have all the different perspectives.

It is like the Akira Kurosawa movie Rashomon.

My self, looking back at those times, in which where Indonesia is at their lowest times, political turmoil, war against large scale insurgences, riots and large scale conflict happened accross the archipelago, terrorism acts, natural disaster (note that Aceh tsunamy boxing day is just happened six year after Soeharto resignation) and even facing the prospect of Balkanization and found the today Indonesia is one of the respected G20 nations, had a healthy growing economy, had a modern armed forces and attracting tens millions international tourists annually, the more i see those facts the more i feeling proud about my country resillience and strong will of my peoples toward progression.

 

[Beast]

Hm... Okay but I think many of the Chinese Indonesians moved there during the 17th century so China doesn't really feel obliged to help them (?) They aren't recent immigrants and they have their own subculture and dialect with Indonesian accent and slangs, which isn't found in China. They even eat a special kind of food called Peranakan cuisine (or Chinese Indonesian cuisine), which includes dishes like "Nasi Tim Ayam".

Certainly I think if Chinese expats were killed, China would react. Expat meaning recent migrant, white collar professional worker in international company. But many of the Chinese Indonesians aren't "expats", they have been there for decades, some even centuries. Do they have any connections to China? Or what if they have connections to ROC (Taiwan) instead?

So I don't really know how to feel about this issue, but I'm just explaining why I think China may not feel responsible for them.

When China had a massive famine in the 60s, PRC asked Malaysian Chinese tycoon for help to buy sugar. Robert kuok did not even hesitant and accep the request of PRC. He never make money from the process but just felt obliged as a Chinese to help China. What do u think? So when they are in trouble, China shall dump them?

 

[Nike]

There is nothing new that you bring here, except you fail to address the article story.

If you read carefully the article, your story has been addressed well though not detail like yours.

But if you care to read the article and my information, you will see that the issue discussed here is not about : "Who is the actor behind the 98 riots", but about: "98 violence against ethnic chinese remain unaddressed" and also "sentiment anti chinese that still remain until now".

Your effort to bring this kind of story is showing how you are like other Indonesian who pretend that this issue is non existence (sentiment anti chinese) and bring this "Soeharto plot" story as diversion.

Eventhough the 98 riot is programmed by Suharto regime as you and other Indonesian like to bring to foreigner, but the easiness of mass to be provoked during 98 riots, or tanjung balai riot has shown how "sentiment anti chinese" was strong; and remain strong until now. You cant deny my information as I am telling the truth (have evidence). This is an act of hypocrisy that majority like to play.

i will not to answer you after this reply so dont bother to Quote me anymore, as you had tendency to put more value toward the Chinese ethnic, the fact is not all of the May 98 casualties is came from Chinese descents, much is come from other ethnicities. THEY ALL THE SAME VICTIMS FROM THE SITUATION, THE COUNTRY IS FUCKED UP AT THE TIME.

 

[antonius123]

i will not to answer you after this reply so dont bother to Quote me anymore, as you had tendency to put more value toward the Chinese ethnic,

You dont want to answer me because I put value more toward Chinese ethnic? LOLs what an excuse.

In fact its time for you to debunk the article and my statement in front of these foreigner if you accuse the article's writer and me are tendencios toward chinese ethnic.

the fact is not all of the May 98 casualties is came from Chinese descents, much is come from other ethnicities. THEY ALL THE SAME VICTIMS FROM THE SITUATION, THE COUNTRY IS FUCKED UP AT THE TIME.

Yes you are right. Beside chinese descents, there were victims like:

1. Trisakti student who was shot because they demonstrated againts Soharto regime.
   
2. Natives who were killed in fire because they tried to loot mall and the mall became under fire.
3. Natives were killed because they looked like chinese (like the article mentioned)
4. Natives were killed during their participation in riots and looting.

Who else? you can name it?

No 1 has been addressed by government.
No 2 to 4 is their own fault. And how about chinese being raped during 98?

And still .. the target of riot is not native! it is chinese ethnic that was targetted!

Do you know why many people paint their stores or properties with "milik pribumi (native owned)" during the riot 98 and some other riots?

Cmon, do you live in Indonesia or not? dont bury your head into sand