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In 2015, A French Submarine Sunk America's Mightiest Warship (An Aircraft Carrier)

Vergennes

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In March 2015, one of the largest nuclear-powered warships in the world was “sunk” by one of the smallest.

The Saphir, a French nuclear attack submarine, reportedly penetrated the defenses of the aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt and scored simulated torpedo hits on her. The incident, originally reported by the French Navy, was later suppressed.

On March 4th, 2015 the French Navy announced in a blog post that the submarine Saphir (“Sapphire”) had simulated stalking and killing the carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt. Not only was the nuclear-powered aircraft carrier simulated sunk but an unknown number of her escorts. The post was later removed without comment from the blog.

Here’s what the world knows: according to the French navy blog post (saved and reproduced by the RP Defense blog), the exercise between Saphir and the USS Theodore Roosevelt Carrier Strike Group took place before an operational deployment. According to the French navy, the carrier strike group included several Ticonderoga-class guided missile cruisers and Arleigh Burke-class destroyers, and a Los Angeles-class nuclear attack submarine.

According to U.S. Naval Institute News, Carrier Strike Group 12 (CSG 12) departed Naval Station Norfolk and Naval Station Mayport on March 5th for a Middle East deployment. CSG12 included the carrier Roosevelt, the Ticonderoga-class cruiser USS Normandy and Arleigh Burke class destroyers Winston S. Churchill, Forrest Sherman, and Farragut from Destroyer Squadron 2 provided escort.

The blog post explained that the pre-deployment exercise, which occurred off the coast of Florida, took place in two phases. The first phase involved the Saphir integrated with U.S. Navy forces to locate enemy submarines and pass data on to other friendly anti-submarine warfare assets. The “enemy submarine” in this case may have been the Los Angeles-class nuclear submarine attached to CSG 12.

In the second phase of the exercise, the Saphir switched sides and became part of the enemy force. The French nuclear submarine was teamed up with U.S. Navy P-3C Orion and P-8 Poseidons. Saphir was to locate the Roosevelt and get into position to sink her. As the exercise scenario degenerated into a shooting war, Saphir was given permission to attack. The submarine reportedly “sank” Roosevelt and “most” of its escorts.

After the exercise was over, Saphir’s commander met with Rear Admiral Richard Butler, Commanding Officer of Carrier Strike Group 4 and Vice Admiral Nora Tyson, Deputy Commander, US Fleet Forces Command.

The French Navy’s blog post was announced on Twitter on March 4th, but was quickly deleted. Several defense outlets picked up on the deletion, and the state-sponsored RT (Russia Today) crowed that a “major vulnerability” had allowed Saphir to penetrate Roosevelt’s screen. That was pure speculation, as the original French Navy post does not mention any such vulnerability.

Nevertheless, the incident appears to have actually happened. The most likely explanation for the deletion of the blog post was that it was simply embarrassing to a major French ally.

Saphir is the second of six Rubis-class nuclear attack submarines built for the French Navy. Rubis is the first generation of French nuclear attack submarines—while the French Navy has had nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines since the mid-60s, French attack submarines were conventionally powered until the early 1980s. At 2,630 tons submerged and 241 feet long the Rubis class may also be the smallest nuclear combatants ever put to sea. Each submarine has a crew of just 70 and is driven by one K48 pressurized water reactor to a speed of 25 knots underwater. The Rubis subs each have four bow torpedo tubes equipped with F17 Mod 2 torpedoes and MM39 Exocet anti-ship missiles.

How did such a tiny submarine kill a ship almost fifty times larger than itself? First of all, we don’t know the rules of engagement of the exercise. Were the Roosevelt’s escorts using all of their anti-submarine warfare sensors? Was there any prohibition or curb on their use, or were any of them declared inoperative for the purposes of the exercise?

Second, it’s important to remember that “sunk” is in quotation marks for a reason. The French F17 torpedo has a 551 pound HBX-3 high explosive warhead. It can also only fire a salvo of four torpedoes at a time, due to having only four torpedo tubes. A 551 pound torpedo warhead would probably not sink a Ticonderoga or Burke-class escort, and though it would undoubtedly damage, it would definitely not sink a Nimitz-class supercarrier. Also, given a screen of four escort ships and Roosevelt’s onboard anti-submarine warfare helicopters, a single salvo of four torpedoes was all Saphir was going to get before it was forced to withdraw.

Provided Saphir targeted Roosevelt and three of her escorts, it would have damaged four ships—not sunk them. Although the distinction is less important when it comes to the escorts, which might have been knocked out of action, with just one torpedo in her Roosevelt would have likely still been capable of air operations.

The U.S. Navy’s anti-submarine warfare skills have deteriorated greatly since the end of the Cold War, and particularly since 9/11. The emphasis on land wars has directed the Navy’s energies—and budget—elsewhere. Still, as the Chinese Navy continues to grow and the Russian Navy is used more aggressively in the Mediterranean and Baltic Seas, improving ASW is becoming a well-deserved priority. The “sinking” of the Theodore Roosevelt may have been a blow to pride, but it was also an important wakeup call. The next time a foreign submarine stalks a U.S. Navy carrier with nearly six thousand people on board, it could be the real thing.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...cas-mightiest-warship-aircraft-carrier-108076

@UKBengali
 
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What type of explosives are required to actually damage a carrier to atleast restrict its movement.
 
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Thanks for that @Vergennes

It just verifies my posts in the PLAN 2025 thread that the 3 Astutes would sink the large Chinese surface fleet one by one. PLAN would be defenceless against these subs.
 
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Yup you are right and 76 Chinese subs will be playing hide and seek.


Did you even bother reading my posts in the PLAN 2025 thread and trying to understand them?


Most of the Chinese subs will be not be suitable for 2 reasons:

1. Conventional subs cannot keep up with surface fleet - 80% of Chinese subs are conventional
2. Only the Type-093B SSNs are relatively modern - the other SSNs are too noisy.

That leaves China with 3 Type-93B that are on the same level as the 3 Trafalgar class but a whole generation behind the 3 Astutes. Astutes would first kill these 3 quickly before moving onto the Chinese surface fleet.

UK submarine force would have great hunting on the huge Chinese fleet.:D
 
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Did you even bother reading my posts in the PLAN 2025 thread and trying to understand them?


Most of the Chinese subs will be not be suitable for 2 reasons:

1. Conventional subs cannot keep up with surface fleet - 80% of Chinese subs are conventional
2. Only the Type-093B SSNs are relatively modern - the other SSNs are too noisy.

That leaves China with 3 Type-93B that are on the same level as the 3 Trafalgar class but a whole generation behind the 3 Astutes. Astutes would first kill these 3 quickly before moving onto the Chinese surface fleet.

UK submarine force would have great hunting on the huge Chinese fleet.:D

Again faulty argument. Its not conventional sub that cant keep up with the surface fleet. Its any sub. In submarine warfare, sub generally attacks by predicting the path and waiting silently for pray to come rather than following the pray.

Furthermore, nuclear subs are very noisy and are used for two purposes only. 1 to use as a ballistic missile attack submarine due to size and secondly to escort the CBG where noise is not that big of a concern as everyone knows their presence however, they are required to remain to continue with CBG therefore long endurance is required.

Best hunters of surface warships are AIPs as they are the most silent and are really difficult to detect. Some of the subs can remain submerged for 3 weeks. Which is a big feat.

A diesel electric AIP sub is the biggest threat to surface fleet and not the nuclear.

You dont know basics of marine warfare.
 
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Again faulty argument. Its not conventional sub that cant keep up with the surface fleet. Its any sub. In submarine warfare, sub generally attacks by predicting the path and waiting silently for pray to come rather than following the pray.

Furthermore, nuclear subs are very noisy and are used for two purposes only. 1 to use as a ballistic missile attack submarine due to size and secondly to escort the CBG where noise is not that big of a concern as everyone knows their presence however, they are required to remain to continue with CBG therefore long endurance is required.

Best hunters of surface warships are AIPs as they are the most silent and are really difficult to detect. Some of the subs can remain submerged for 3 weeks. Which is a big feat.

A diesel electric AIP sub is the biggest threat to surface fleet and not the nuclear.

You dont know basics of marine warfare.

Dude, do you even research real life wars like Falklands to see how nuclear SSNs work?

Please just go and read about real warfare, since you do not believe me, before embarrassing yourself time and time again here.

PS - this whole thread was about a French nuclear SSN stalking and "sinking" a US CBG if you bothered to read the OP's article.
 
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Dude, do you even research real life wars like Falklands to see how nuclear SSNs work?

Please just go and read about real warfare, since you do not believe me, before embarrassing yourself time and time again here.

PS - this whole thread was about a French nuclear SSN stalking and "sinking" a US CBG if you bothered to read the OP's article.
Nuclear subs are not only loud but also have a very large heat signature due to fission.
 
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US Navy especially their aircraft carrier strike group were humiliated a few times now by small submarines...
 
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Sir G, this part of sentence is OK and acceptable.


This part have something fishy ... ;).
TBH since my early age i likes two nations french and UAE . in recent 5 years i lay off from UAE they did not worth . i like french culture food actors philosophers and as much as i learn about them i like them more. and yes they are fashion capital of world .
 
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You are the .ost deluded person on this forum. Even westerners here r not defending your claims. This tgread about effectiveness of submarines and not just french submarines.

Here couple of similar incidents where there were Chinese submarines but same CBG.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.po...bmarine-stalked-an-american-aircraft-carrier/

If you have little bit of dignity u will not post any BS


Dude, do you even research real life wars like Falklands to see how nuclear SSNs work?

Please just go and read about real warfare, since you do not believe me, before embarrassing yourself time and time again here.

PS - this whole thread was about a French nuclear SSN stalking and "sinking" a US CBG if you bothered to read the OP's article.
 
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You are the .ost deluded person on this forum. Even westerners here r not defending your claims. This tgread about effectiveness of submarines and not just french submarines.

Here couple of similar incidents where there were Chinese submarines but same CBG.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.po...bmarine-stalked-an-american-aircraft-carrier/

If you have little bit of dignity u will not post any BS


LOL - at these stupid references where the US CBG was not even looking for subs.

You need to stop posting crap like J-20s engaging in battles in the middle of the ocean.
Did you even read the link I posted about how many tankers were required to support one Vulcan bomber during Falklands war?

I give you actual real life evidence of how deadly a SSN is in battle(Falklands) and you still want to go with your nonsense ideas.

Seems like you are a teenager with the biggest crush on China.:rofl:
 
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USS_Theodore_Roosevelt_operations_150322-N-ZF573-140%20%281%29.jpg


In March 2015, one of the largest nuclear-powered warships in the world was “sunk” by one of the smallest.

The Saphir, a French nuclear attack submarine, reportedly penetrated the defenses of the aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt and scored simulated torpedo hits on her. The incident, originally reported by the French Navy, was later suppressed.

On March 4th, 2015 the French Navy announced in a blog post that the submarine Saphir (“Sapphire”) had simulated stalking and killing the carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt. Not only was the nuclear-powered aircraft carrier simulated sunk but an unknown number of her escorts. The post was later removed without comment from the blog.

Here’s what the world knows: according to the French navy blog post (saved and reproduced by the RP Defense blog), the exercise between Saphir and the USS Theodore Roosevelt Carrier Strike Group took place before an operational deployment. According to the French navy, the carrier strike group included several Ticonderoga-class guided missile cruisers and Arleigh Burke-class destroyers, and a Los Angeles-class nuclear attack submarine.

According to U.S. Naval Institute News, Carrier Strike Group 12 (CSG 12) departed Naval Station Norfolk and Naval Station Mayport on March 5th for a Middle East deployment. CSG12 included the carrier Roosevelt, the Ticonderoga-class cruiser USS Normandy and Arleigh Burke class destroyers Winston S. Churchill, Forrest Sherman, and Farragut from Destroyer Squadron 2 provided escort.

The blog post explained that the pre-deployment exercise, which occurred off the coast of Florida, took place in two phases. The first phase involved the Saphir integrated with U.S. Navy forces to locate enemy submarines and pass data on to other friendly anti-submarine warfare assets. The “enemy submarine” in this case may have been the Los Angeles-class nuclear submarine attached to CSG 12.

In the second phase of the exercise, the Saphir switched sides and became part of the enemy force. The French nuclear submarine was teamed up with U.S. Navy P-3C Orion and P-8 Poseidons. Saphir was to locate the Roosevelt and get into position to sink her. As the exercise scenario degenerated into a shooting war, Saphir was given permission to attack. The submarine reportedly “sank” Roosevelt and “most” of its escorts.

After the exercise was over, Saphir’s commander met with Rear Admiral Richard Butler, Commanding Officer of Carrier Strike Group 4 and Vice Admiral Nora Tyson, Deputy Commander, US Fleet Forces Command.

The French Navy’s blog post was announced on Twitter on March 4th, but was quickly deleted. Several defense outlets picked up on the deletion, and the state-sponsored RT (Russia Today) crowed that a “major vulnerability” had allowed Saphir to penetrate Roosevelt’s screen. That was pure speculation, as the original French Navy post does not mention any such vulnerability.

Nevertheless, the incident appears to have actually happened. The most likely explanation for the deletion of the blog post was that it was simply embarrassing to a major French ally.

Saphir is the second of six Rubis-class nuclear attack submarines built for the French Navy. Rubis is the first generation of French nuclear attack submarines—while the French Navy has had nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines since the mid-60s, French attack submarines were conventionally powered until the early 1980s. At 2,630 tons submerged and 241 feet long the Rubis class may also be the smallest nuclear combatants ever put to sea. Each submarine has a crew of just 70 and is driven by one K48 pressurized water reactor to a speed of 25 knots underwater. The Rubis subs each have four bow torpedo tubes equipped with F17 Mod 2 torpedoes and MM39 Exocet anti-ship missiles.

How did such a tiny submarine kill a ship almost fifty times larger than itself? First of all, we don’t know the rules of engagement of the exercise. Were the Roosevelt’s escorts using all of their anti-submarine warfare sensors? Was there any prohibition or curb on their use, or were any of them declared inoperative for the purposes of the exercise?

Second, it’s important to remember that “sunk” is in quotation marks for a reason. The French F17 torpedo has a 551 pound HBX-3 high explosive warhead. It can also only fire a salvo of four torpedoes at a time, due to having only four torpedo tubes. A 551 pound torpedo warhead would probably not sink a Ticonderoga or Burke-class escort, and though it would undoubtedly damage, it would definitely not sink a Nimitz-class supercarrier. Also, given a screen of four escort ships and Roosevelt’s onboard anti-submarine warfare helicopters, a single salvo of four torpedoes was all Saphir was going to get before it was forced to withdraw.

Provided Saphir targeted Roosevelt and three of her escorts, it would have damaged four ships—not sunk them. Although the distinction is less important when it comes to the escorts, which might have been knocked out of action, with just one torpedo in her Roosevelt would have likely still been capable of air operations.

The U.S. Navy’s anti-submarine warfare skills have deteriorated greatly since the end of the Cold War, and particularly since 9/11. The emphasis on land wars has directed the Navy’s energies—and budget—elsewhere. Still, as the Chinese Navy continues to grow and the Russian Navy is used more aggressively in the Mediterranean and Baltic Seas, improving ASW is becoming a well-deserved priority. The “sinking” of the Theodore Roosevelt may have been a blow to pride, but it was also an important wakeup call. The next time a foreign submarine stalks a U.S. Navy carrier with nearly six thousand people on board, it could be the real thing.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...cas-mightiest-warship-aircraft-carrier-108076

@UKBengali

French tech is one of the best in world, PAF also achieved it in 1995 with the best french tech of the time 'Mirage + Exocet'.
Alas ... ! we lost the opportunity of Rafael.

Edit ... addition of reference ...
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pafs...uss-abraham-lincoln-air-craft-carrier.603671/
 
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