Imran Khan: "We can learn a thing or two from Erdogan"

[BaybarsHan]

many many "istemezuk" marginally types here..

 

[BaybarsHan]

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[Inspector Spacetime]

@Medic2 nice read bro.

On a more political front, he is volatile and incredibly thin skinned. This makes me worry about if or when he will get ticked off on a personal level with another important country (ie the US…Yeah, I don’t care what anyone says about how strong our army or economy is – we need them…for now), or a rival country (Greece). Take for example the Syrian crisis. When it all began Erdogans attitude to the world was “Don’t worry! We’re tight, I’ll talk to him! Hes a good guy!”. As soon as Erdogan didn’t get his way, he became the biggest voice of criticism against Bashar Al-Assad, despite nothing really changing in Syria before and after the meeting. Same goes for Israel – when he couldn’t broker a peace process, he felt insulted by Israel and look where that got us. The man runs Turkish policy on his personal tiffs, and that can be dangerous.

The thing about Syria, I don't feel like it was a personal issue. Turkey and Syria had close ties before the conflict started. Turkey went into dialogue a couple of times with Assad to defuse to situation but it failed. It would've been in Turkey's best interest to support Assad in this situation, but it chose to go against Assad because of what they believe in. I personally would've been upset with Erdogan if he had chosen to support Assad.

I do think that Erdogan's rhetoric could've been less aggressive though.

Then there is the entire coupe plotter issue. He is expending tremendous efforts to arrest coupe plotters from decades ago, and manipulating/controlling the media to make a massive fuss about how untouchable and just his government policy is. Going back to the entire economy topic – Turkey had its boom, where was the boom in Pakistan? Iran? Afghanistan? Syria? Right, it never happened. Why? Political instability – who in their right mind would bring their business to countries that are wrought with intolerance, violence, and bigotry? (Please, don’t think I am trying to insult you or the people of Pakistan with that last adjective, but you cannot deny the fact that there is a large number of seriously fanatical Muslims there – far more than Turkey). Nobody would, and that’s why while these other countries are either falling apart, having serious friction with neighbouring countries, or dealing with internal issues (Alawites vs Sunnis anyone? Oh look, religious violence again!), Turkey and other less hardline developing nations had their boom. Had it not been for keeping religion out through these coupes, it is likely Turkey would be dealing with some sort of internal strife like the other nations I listed. Rather than saying “We are Turks, we are united and able to play on the global political stage as ONE COUNTRY”, they would be busy dealing with nonsense of Shia vs Sunni, Jihad on Israel and US, religious enforcement/oppression. Before Erdogan takes full credit for improving the economy, he needs to check his pro-Islam stance and stop taking the country down that direction because I assure you secularism set the stage for the boom – not Islam.

These trails against coup plotters etc. is needed in my opinion to safeguard Turkey's future and that it becomes a solidified democratic state. When it comes to this issue, we are only playing catch-up compared to other countries. And it's thanks to the EU that AKP was able to start such trials. If it weren't for the EU negotiations, I think the AKP government would've been overthrown by the government. The internal strife in Turkey, according to the trails, it was the coup plotters that provoked the internal strife in the first place to give them an excuse to make a coup. In turn this will also make it easier for them to be recognized by the international community. Terms like 'Laiklik' etc were promoted by them to spread fear and hatred among the people. There were dark propaganda websites that were created by the junta within the Turkish military and that were active till only a few years ago. These websites should be part in one of the coup trials, I think Ergenekon, but not sure.

Finally, as you can probably tell, I dislike having Islam (Or any religion) implemented in government, or encouraged by the government. Why is it necessary to have Islam courses in the military? Erdogans excuse was to be a truly democratic country we need to offer the option. Well, the military is large enough – why not implement some courses in Christianity? I know Turkey is a predominantly Muslim nation, but when you’re talking about true democracy, you give ALL religions and choices an option.

I think this is a good step. In my opinion it was wrong that it didn't have Islamic courses in (military) schools in the first place. Turkey's population is predominantly Muslim, and the government (even if it is secular) needs to respect, listen and conform to it's peoples wishes and religious/cultural norm's and value's. Secularism doesn't mean the absence of religion, it's just the way a country's political structure is. The country still needs to conform to it's people's wishes, and that's what makes a country democratic.

And in my opinion it is also important to teach Islam, as we all know about terrorists that use Islam to recruit. The way they recruit people to their cause is by teaching lies and half-truth's about Islam. If someone is educated enough about Islam, he/she won't be fooled into joining such a terrorist organization.

About Christianity being taught in schools. If there is demand for it, then they should go with it.

Why all of a sudden did we build such warm relationships with Muslim nations, and coincidently our relations with all other nations soured? Turk/US relations went south, Turk/EU relations went south, Turk/Israel relations went south. Turk/Islam relations went up – big time. This is NOT a proper way to attain prosperity for your people. Furthermore, more and more mosques are being built all throughout the country, heck we are even paying to have mosques built in other countries now to help promote Islam. Even recently, we have announced “Ayran” as our national beverage. AtaTurk was the founder of Turkey, it’s his country, his drink – Raki. Turkish Airlines is now beginning a partial ban on alcohol on certain flights – is that really a sound business decision? You have a business not selling something that has a huge profit margin, because? There is a huge thread about a Pianist being thrown in jail because he rubbed Islamic hardliners in government the wrong way. Hundreds of journalists are in jail because they spoke low of Erdogans government, or Islam. There is an obvious pattern and trend here, that regardless of where you sit on the political fence (Kemalist vs Islamist), that you just simply cannot argue against if you apply sound and reasonable logic.

I don't see the problem of having good relations Muslim countries. I don't see relations with other countries gone sour either except for Syria and Israel, maybe a little with Iran as well. Relations with Israel seem to be going a bit better now though (after the apology).

Erdogan's AKP is an Islamic party. Which by the way isn't unheard of in democratic country's. There are religious parties in Europe as well, republican's in America are religious. And I'm sure there is some religious political party in Canada as well. Erdogan being against alcoholic beverages and building mosque's is fair enough in my opinion. I guess you can argue about the mosque's, but only about individual mosque's on if it is needed in the area or not. I didn't know that Turkey is making mosque's in other country's, but I consider this as good news myself though. I like to see my country supporting charity.

Ataturk isn't an atheist either. He actually gave a 'hutbe' (speech) during friday prayer. And he is the one that established the presidency of religious affairs (Diyanet) in Turkey. I understand he wasn't strongly religious, but he wasn't about banning everything religious either. I am not accusing you of anything by the way, but many in Turkey use Ataturk's name to argue against religious stuff in Turkish politics.

I am not saying everything's peachy in Turkey. There needs to be some more changes concerning Turkish law (referring to Say's case). The journalists, from what I have heard are in jail because of the Ergenekon and KCK trials. The recently approved 4th judicial package may solve some of this though, because I know the MHP was critical of this package citing that it would release many of the KCK defendants. I think there was a change concerning propaganda and that it would only be an offense if it incited violence.

For Erdogans time, he took the country in the right direction. However, as he further dismantles any form of opposition, or parties that keep his actions in check, you can clearly see he is taking bigger and bolder steps towards Islam, and further away from Secularism. You need only look at the Ottoman empire, or current heavy Islamic countries and the state they were in or how they end up. Erdogan is playing my country and my people right into those same doomed steps. That’s why I dislike him.

I made a post some time ago about how mean education levels/poverty will affect peoples decisions to follow a more religious path as a means of salvation. All Erdogan did was play the right card at the right time (and good on him for it), and with that he won the trust of the people. Unfortunately Turkey hasn’t reached that highly educated state to know better (imo), and thus will follow Erdogan blindly, or buy into the religion scheme willingly simply because they don’t know better just yet.

There is your answer. I’ll say it again – if you come out with “lolz” or other insults, I will not engage with you any further. Discuss if you wish.

I personally don't see it like this. AKP is making changes to conform to EU. AKP hasn't done anything to endanger Turkey's secular structure in the last 10 years in power, and I don't see why they would start changing it now.

Erdogan was able to garner votes using religion. Because Turkey had many problems, like the headscarf ban, that the people wanted to see solved. AKP however is able to attract votes from all sorts of people including conservatives, secularists, Kurds and they are even attracting vote's from atheists. And I think this is because of their track record, as well as their future policies.

Currently I would vote for AKP, because of their track record. But I hope that other political parties in the future will be more about future policies and try to attract my vote in that way. And hopefully the political level of Turkey will increase because of it (currently it seems to be only about mudslinging unfortunately).

 

[avrasya]

Both of Atatürk's life, military carrier, political carrier and his ideologies taught at primary school. Turkish kids grow with admiration and gratitude toward Atatürk. Who says what, there is no way that Turkish people will turn their back on Atatürk and to his teachings. He will always have a special place in our heart.

I am grateful to Atatürk for his military achievements. I respect him. But showing gratitude for military achievements of Ataturk one thing, supporting his political agenda is another thing. You can respect someone but you don't have to support his political views. Kemalists always fail to understand this simple thing.

As i said before I like Atatürk and I admit that he served this nation in his own way, but i do not support his teachings. Thank god Turkish people turn their back to kemalizm ideology long time ago. You can clearly see this from CHP's votes. Argue the opposite if you want but reality showing the truth.

 

[-SINAN-]

I am grateful to Atatürk for his military achievements. I respect him. But showing gratitude for military achievements of Ataturk one thing, supporting his political agenda is another thing. You can respect someone but you don't have to support his political views. Kemalists always fail to understand this simple thing.

As i said before I like Atatürk and I admit that he served this nation in his own way, but i do not support his teachings. Thank god Turkish people turn their back to kemalizm ideology long time ago. You can clearly see this from CHP's votes. Argue the opposite if you want but reality showing the truth.

Now i'm curious which of his teachings don't you support, secularism ?