Imran Khan unacceptable

[truthseeker2010]

No, it has nothing to do with Nadeem Anjum. He is just executing on policy that has been decided months ago which is to keep Pakistan's relations with the US intact and potentially grow. This is the position of the establishment and also of those others who are seeing the situation up close in terms of where Pakistan is and heading. PDM are just another bunch of petty tools but they are going along with Pakistan's look westward policy. Even if IK were to come back to the office, the relations with the US will not mend and there in lies the rub. Either IK and the establishment get aligned on this or this cannot move forward with them together.

I am sure both the PTI government along with the establishment evaluated what and how Pakistan could rely on China and KSA etc. to offset a divorce from the US post their withdrawal from Afghanistan. The calculus clearly brought them to a point where they realized that going cold on our ties with the US would hurt Pakistan in multiple ways. IK made some noise about diversification but none of that landed given the situation with us still living in a unipolar world with a ton of dependencies on the Americans and their alliances. This is the realpolitik of the situation. None of the talk of our "ghairat", "khuddari", "ji hazoori" pays our bills.

So anti-American populism aside, the reality of the situation has hit Pakistan just the same way it hit Turkey, KSA, Egypt etc. that they have no choice but to mend fences with the Americans. They all talked about getting close to Russians/Chinese etc. but none of that has panned out. If anything, the Ukraine war clearly demonstrated how the US had the ability to bring to its knees, even the Russians by choking them from all monetary and trading platforms. So how can Pakistan be an exception in this situation?

This is the conundrum facing the establishment.

The reality is estb never become independent, right from friends not masters to becoming allies in wot. pak army become from defending against India to becoming a mercenary rental force. Who is unable to protect itself in its own territory. Reason the generals no 1 priority was never pak it was always their retirement. The end result today is ur drowned in debt from China and US both. And neither ur neighbour nor ur allies heck even ur own public don't respect you.

I don't think it was "willing" but it got dragged into the war because of the structures in place. Don't think anyone in their right minds would have gone into the mess willingly. We had our interests to protect and we took a huge cost to keep them intact.

I think when IK would say "its not our war", he was forgetting what these interests were.

U were not dragged, u went in it due to a gen who already messed in kargil and he did it again. And yet today even tangos don't trust u. What interest u protected with going in war? Even the dollars u got were far less than the financial cost of war let alone other costs......

 

[Riz]

USA playing wisely, 80% of Pakistanis were pro IK & pro military before bajwa implemented the US wishes and ousted IK , now it is pak army which suffered the most , they succeeded in turning the public against military for the second time after 71 , Allah khair kary malik bhi wahi hain aor kuttay bhi wahi hain , baki ap sab samjhdar hain woh kia karna chahtay hain

 

[Sifar zero]

He did not release any TTP infact PA generals on the orders of Bajwa made this plan to create chaos in Pakistan and blame it on IK.

This is what happens when you get all your Info from Naya Pakistan TV and ARY news.
He himself has accepted that he had released TTP prisoners then why tf are you defending him.

 

[Thinker3]

This is what happens when you get all your Info from Naya Pakistan TV and ARY news.
He himself has accepted that he had released TTP prisoners then why tf are you defending him.

Where did he say that?

 

[Riz]

Where did he say that?

Iska L jany lahore konsi degree par ha

 

[blain2]

The reality is estb never become independent, right from friends not masters to becoming allies in wot. pak army become from defending against India to becoming a mercenary rental force. Who is unable to protect itself in its own territory. Reason the generals no 1 priority was never pak it was always their retirement. The end result today is ur drowned in debt from China and US both. And neither ur neighbour nor ur allies heck even ur own public don't respect you.



U were not dragged, u went in it due to a gen who already messed in kargil and he did it again. And yet today even tangos don't trust u. What interest u protected with going in war? Even the dollars u got were far less than the financial cost of war let alone other costs......

When things are posted without context, it does not leave much room for discussion or debate.

Entire books have been written on why Pakistan needed to lean on x, y and z. We have never been a "rental force". This is the routine, nonsensical bile that continues to pour out of PTI propaganda machinery.

Second, Pakistan got more than it gave throughout our history. You want to look up who we owe the money to? We owe the most to the IMIs which aren't the US and China. The US has given us more aid (not loans, rather grants) than people here are willing to accept because it rubs their izzat the wrong way. Chinese have never been big fans of doling out cash so they usually loan and not grant.

So don't go about this "you" track because you and your countrymen benefitted. Remember the great old Mangla dam? The largest earthen dam in Asia that we proudly claim? Who paid for it and with no strings attached? Remember the motorways that everyone talks up here? You know who invested in those, right? So where do you get off blaming only the generals for the expenses that were taken on to benefit the entire nation? Yes, no need for Mercedes for politicians and generals alike. You won't find me pushing back on that but a lot of the aid and debt that you complain about funded our cities and infra.

So let's take a break from these useless "khuddari" lessons here as if you are the only aggrieved party here. We collectively brought Pakistan to this point. Own up!

 

[doorstar]

Chinese have never been big fans of doling out cash so they usually loan and not grant.

Chines gormint grants will be/and are covertly made.

RE: Chinese investing in CPEC: there is no such thing as Chinese investments in CPEC projects but loans from Chinese banks.

you (fat chor) can borrow 19 billion dollars for a project costing 10 billion. and they will help you launder the excess 9 billion abroad at a 50% cost.

meaning that Pakistan has to pay back 19 billion +interest for a 10 billion project, bankers/launderes get 4.5, fat chor gets 4.5.

 

[Signalian]

a pal of mine who is a very successful biz owner here in Dallas area was talking to this ex-military officer from US Army. So this guy must ve been in intel or something. He says , well we can work with the likes of Nawaz Sharif ( as he is corrupt & vulnerable)but ppl like IK is not acceptable to us ( as he is honest, not a crook etc.) and our interests and we do whatever it takes to remove obstacles to our interests! I am rephrasing and giving ya' all of the gist of the convo. This was like 4 months ago here in Carrollton TX. Go figure!

That is the commonly narrated version.

The truth is far from that since Pakistan and USA part ways where the conflict of interest occur. This keeps happening in political, intelligence and military matters. CPEC is a great example, it should never have occurred had Pakistan been in USA's camp. The F-16 saga ended after CSF was pulled, Pakistan doesn't want to pay full price for new F-16s or AH-1Zs. CSF would never have been pulled had Pakistan been listening to USA on matters that were of American interest.

As for IK coming into power, ISI and Army wanted and helped IK to come in power, so if the Military and ISI was under USA's influence, the sportsman would still be the 12th man sitting in the room or running here and there for fielding duties.

Bottom line is that IK lacks diplomatic skills to handle international peers especially those who pose challenges. He goes after corruption, which is good, but then he has to go after other important matters (domestic and foreign) with the same zeal and vigor. 22-24 crore Public is corrupt, and public wants IK as a scapegoat to completely overhaul the whole system while they sit on the sidelines and watch and then jump into a new Pakistan to start a new life when its made by IK. IK can never make a new Pakistan, its public's job, not IK's.

Maybe the public would have come out on the road if IK had given the masses what they wanted - low prices in everything. Its the literate lot within public who understood IK and where he is coming from, while the majority will never have the vision due to illiteracy and the chronic problem of inflation in items of daily use. Probably IK's vision stood for the progressive minded individuals of the country. The country however stands low on literacy rate, and that is made up of public who can read and write. Making them think is an entirely different concern. The clash has occurred where other political parties rule over the rural population or through religion, both encompassing a large number of population and a religious mindset. The society gets divided on many views then.

 

[doorstar]

a pal of mine who is a very successful biz owner here in Dallas area was talking to this ex-military officer from US Army. So this guy must ve been in intel or something. He says , well we can work with the likes of Nawaz Sharif ( as he is corrupt & vulnerable)but ppl like IK is not acceptable to us ( as he is honest, not a crook etc.) and our interests and we do whatever it takes to remove obstacles to our interests! I am rephrasing and giving ya' all of the gist of the convo. This was like 4 months ago here in Carrollton TX. Go figure!

I can make up exact same story with minor changes wherein my retired military friend says that US can't work with an inconsistent delusional jehadi shaikh chilli who has surrounded himself with the worst of the worst, most crooked elements from all parties.

 

[blain2]

Chines gormint grants will be/and are covertly made.

RE: Chinese investing in CPEC: there is no such thing as Chinese investments in CPEC projects but loans from Chinese banks.

you (fat chor) can borrow 19 billion dollars for a project costing 10 billion. and they will help you launder the excess 9 billion abroad at a 50% cost.

meaning that Pakistan has to pay back 19 billion +interest for a 10 billion project, bankers/launderes get 4.5, fat chor gets 4.5.

Tau mainay kaha thaa kay motorway banao? Don't see you complaining about M1 cutting down the time of a trip from ISB to Peshawar drastically but loans lainay pa badda masla ho gaya hai ab.

For the sake of argument, let's say everything you say is the gospel. They made an excess of $9B on the deal. Khair hai?

The initial $10B in investment was worth more than past 5 years of FDI coming into Pakistan from various other countries prior to CPEC. So in a country starved of FDI, a Chinese investment, even if expensive, was welcome because it allowed money in the billions to circulate in our cash starved economy.

Americans say TINSTAAFL....such is the case with our deals with China or for that matter any other country.

 

[terry5]

Imran Khan values Pakistani lives and that is why he released 100's of TTP prisoners and also resettled them in KPK.
The same TTP who killed 1000's of Pakistani's and played with the heads of our soldiers.

From the demonstrations and the protests that occurred in KPK against TTP being allowed to settle and move back . It was the Army that was boring blamed for it as the KPK locals are fed up of them .

I also don’t believe anything happens in Pakistan without the armies say so but that’s my opinion.

 

[FuturePAF]

That can change if there is money to be made and IK can secure it. IMHO, now is a good time for IK, when his party is out of office, to talk to the Afghans, and secure an agreement to allow large scale lithium mining by a western company. In exchange, a new IK government would hold to his absolutely not policy, as well as help the Afghans get global recognition (helping to secure their regime’s long term challengers are kept at bay). For Pakistan, it could also be the basis of a stable and economically thriving KPK, which should be part of put the TTP issue to bed, once and for all.

One mining company would lead to more mining companies, and all these mining companies could hire lobbyists in the US congress and other western capitals, to normalize relations with the Afghans and shift relations with Pakistan towards a business first approach.

All the while, along with other reforms that open more opportunities for western firms in Pakistan, IK and the PTI will have gone from unacceptable to indispensable.

The key has to be western and especially US business interests, who can lobby in congress. Pakistan needs to carve out its utility to the world, especially as the western wants to transition to a larger percentage of EVs on the roads and other lithium based products. It may not own the resources but if it can get it to market; a bird in hand is worth two in the bush.

As a follow up; IK working to make the Talib’s find a pragmatic approach to the world, after leading the call for a genuine democracy in Pakistan, can be the most consequential thing he could do.

The potential is there, nowadays more than ever, to capture this potential.

15:00

 

[FuturePAF]

Tau mainay kaha thaa kay motorway banao? Don't see you complaining about M1 cutting down the time of a trip from ISB to Peshawar drastically but loans lainay pa badda masla ho gaya hai ab.

For the sake of argument, let's say everything you say is the gospel. They made an excess of $9B on the deal. Khair hai?

The initial $10B in investment was worth more than past 5 years of FDI coming into Pakistan from various other countries prior to CPEC. So in a country starved of FDI, a Chinese investment, even if expensive, was welcome because it allowed money in the billions to circulate in our cash starved economy.

Americans say TINSTAAFL....such is the case with our deals with China or for that matter any other country.

Regardless of the investment, we need a plan for sustainability with ever major project. CPEC phase 2: Re-industrialization based on our large labor force should have been phased in along side the energy projects.

Also, besides building new Dams (which we also need to prevent floods and uphold the Indus water treaty) we should be building the cheapest form of electricity generation power plants; coal fired power plants run on local coal.

If we can lower our oil and gas imports dramatically, reinvest in local mining sector, electrify and mechanize our agriculture to world standards and have the political stability, including using our means to influence Afghanistan to build the corridors to Central Asia, we will be primed to grow out of this mess. Subsidies will have to end, but Tax increases on the well off will only have to be inline with the region, not driving away investors.

 

[truthseeker2010]

When things are posted without context, it does not leave much room for discussion or debate.

Entire books have been written on why Pakistan needed to lean on x, y and z. We have never been a "rental force". This is the routine, nonsensical bile that continues to pour out of PTI propaganda machinery.

Second, Pakistan got more than it gave throughout our history. You want to look up who we owe the money to? We owe the most to the IMIs which aren't the US and China. The US has given us more aid (not loans, rather grants) than people here are willing to accept because it rubs their izzat the wrong way. Chinese have never been big fans of doling out cash so they usually loan and not grant.

So don't go about this "you" track because you and your countrymen benefitted. Remember the great old Mangla dam? The largest earthen dam in Asia that we proudly claim? Who paid for it and with no strings attached? Remember the motorways that everyone talks up here? You know who invested in those, right? So where do you get off blaming only the generals for the expenses that were taken on to benefit the entire nation? Yes, no need for Mercedes for politicians and generals alike. You won't find me pushing back on that but a lot of the aid and debt that you complain about funded our cities and infra.

So let's take a break from these useless "khuddari" lessons here as if you are the only aggrieved party here. We collectively brought Pakistan to this point. Own up!

Since anything that now comes against your (it will be yours bcoz the army never worked for the interest of the country but their own institution just like East India company) generals becomes coming from a person of political party rathan than a tax payer just shows how ignorant the army fan boiz still are.

So you think pak got more than it deserves, do u know motorways are actually meant for industrialisation and not to transport just people from one place to another. There is no free money in the world but since people like u have now been used to them so in order to secure more of it u follow their way in the name of protecting the country interest which in actual is interest of only group of powerful people.

Mangla is not the largest, Tarbela is. And mangla was constructed from loans of wb and adb. So all these money be it Chinese or US help their companies rather than country itself. It just becomes a burden for debt service if not utilised properly.

Yes I confess I used to be fan of these 12th graders and I used to fund them through my tax money. But they all wasted be it civil or mil. But I will never accept that I bought the country to this situation. The bastards of ghq and parliament are solely responsible for it and they will pay for it.

 

[TheSolution]

He did not release any TTP infact PA generals on the orders of Bajwa made this plan to create chaos in Pakistan and blame it on IK.

Youthiyas in their worship of Khan even make up their own conspiracy theories, you are like the Indian bhakts

From the demonstrations and the protests that occurred in KPK against TTP being allowed to settle and move back . It was the Army that was boring blamed for it as the KPK locals are fed up of them .

I also don’t believe anything happens in Pakistan without the armies say so but that’s my opinion.

Imran Khan is on record throughout the past decade supporting TTP and simping for the terrorists after they shot up literal school kids and beheaded people.

He literally calls them upset brothers and praises them while the operations are going on against them - then he also opposed the same fencing which kept them from operating and moving freely from Afghanistan.

It is not the end of the world if you take some criticism against IK, he is not your God or your father.

He is childish and naive, the only reason he is popular in Pakistan is because every other politician is corrupt and hated. Otherwise IK would not survive in healthy competition.