Impact of Nationalization on Pakistan's Economic development

[SoulSpokesman]

Ghazi sb,

Lets hope that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan live upto its name and become the truly Islamic State, which has never really existed except in the times of the 4 rightly guided Caliphs (RA).

Regards

 

[313ghazi]

Ghazi sb,

Lets hope that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan live upto its name and become the truly Islamic State, which has never really existed except in the times of the 4 rightly guided Caliphs (RA).

Regards

If we get even half way there, we'll have a successful nation. People focus too much on labels, systems of governance is no exception. What a system is called, how it is implemented, what matters for people is always the same.

We want safety, we want shelter, we want food and clothing, we want dignity, we want freedom. That's all anyone wants.

 

[Hell hound]

I'm saving this what a share man what a share! but venture capitalism is the most confusing thing in this and traditional capitalism seems best option
@django @Nilgiri @Zibago @Hell hound

capitalism with proper competition(not the mili bhagat one you see in our auto industry) all the way bro.

 

[Mumm-Ra]

One of the worst and ill thought out policies ever devised by a Pakistani Prime Minister. To join the ranks of welfare countries, you have to first become economically a power house. It has been like that always, first comes the hardships and only then do you get the fruits of your earlier labour. ZAB was a master orator and he fired up the imagination of the people of getting better quality of life without first their due share in sacrifices. He was probably the worst thing to have ever happened to Pakistan if one looks at history objectively. He was partly responsible for 1965 war and one of the a**holes responsible for 1971 seperations. In the after match of the civil war, he destroyed our nascent industry, shackled the remaining institutions with the curse of labour unions and forced a flight of capital from Pakistan.

Karachi, who was once hailed as the gateway to Asia has now been relegated to a backwater city while that place has been taken by Dubai. Just imagine for once, what great future we would have had if this land had not produced that Bhutto.

 

[somebozo]

You are right and you are wrong. Aspects of socialism work well when implemented correctly, Saudi Arabia is a terrible implementation. Instead of encouraging people to work they pay them not to revolt.

The problem here is when we try to define ourselves by the standards of the white man. Socialism, capitalism, communism - these are their social constructs, they have created them based on their values and applied them in thier own countries and other countries they consider their dominions.

We have our own values and our own systems. We were given it 1400 years ago and it has been successful ever since (where it has been applied properly). More than 100 years after the fall of the Ottoman empire the street dogs of Istanbul bare witness to a single successful aspect of their economic model. The state leaves food for the strays, the businesses feed the strays, their stray dogs are as well fed and are more docile than most peoples prized pets.

The islamic model of economics encourages trade and business.
It discourages unfair pricing
It prohbits usury
It has a wealth tax
It has a universal income
It has regulation of the market place.

It uniquely different to all of our current models which either let the people suffer (capitalism) or the market suffer (communism).

What Bhutto did was not islamic, i'm not defending it. My point right from the word Go was that there are aspects of socialism which are very important for society, particularly the fair distribution of wealth.

Read Thomas Picketty's book Capital.

Civilizations in IndoPak region are older than 1400 years ago with history of much more wealth and commerce as compared to Arabia..to emulate a 1400 year old system is actually going backwards not forward..

One of the worst and ill thought out policies ever devised by a Pakistani Prime Minister. To join the ranks of welfare countries, you have to first become economically a power house. It has been like that always, first comes the hardships and only then do you get the fruits of your earlier labour. ZAB was a master orator and he fired up the imagination of the people of getting better quality of life without first their due share in sacrifices. He was probably the worst thing to have ever happened to Pakistan if one looks at history objectively. He was partly responsible for 1965 war and one of the a**holes responsible for 1971 seperations. In the after match of the civil war, he destroyed our nascent industry, shackled the remaining institutions with the curse of labour unions and forced a flight of capital from Pakistan.

Karachi, who was once hailed as the gateway to Asia has now been relegated to a backwater city while that place has been taken by Dubai. Just imagine for once, what great future we would have had if this land had not produced that Bhutto.

Bhutto was an imported scum...from the hareem of Junagarh nawab..thanks to Liaqat Ali for unchecked immigration policy..our parliaments became full of illegitimate children of Indian princely states..they continue to rule us today from their comforts in Dubai, London and Zurich

Ghazi sb,

Lets hope that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan live upto its name and become the truly Islamic State, which has never really existed except in the times of the 4 rightly guided Caliphs (RA).

Regards

There are two other examples in recent time.

1. Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan ruled by Talibans
2. Islamic State ruled by Daesh in Iraq and Syria..

 

[313ghazi]

Civilizations in IndoPak region are older than 1400 years ago with history of much more wealth and commerce as compared to Arabia..to emulate a 1400 year old system is actually going backwards not forward..



Bhutto was an imported scum...from the hareem of Junagarh nawab..thanks to Liaqat Ali for unchecked immigration policy..our parliaments became full of illegitimate children of Indian princely states..they continue to rule us today from their comforts in Dubai, London and Zurich

The wisdom of Islam is eternal. The sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh is not time limited, neither is the shariah. If you are an atheist or a non Muslim, then I won't bother having a conversation with you on the matter. If you are a Muslim, you must accept that, it is a basic part of your aqeeda. All that should matter is living every aspect of your life in accordance to that. Every decision, every policy should be influenced by that. Wealth and ancestory is meaningless in comparison.

There are two other examples in recent time.

1. Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan ruled by Talibans
2. Islamic State ruled by Daesh in Iraq and Syria..

You are now showing your own ignorance and your contempt for the system of Allah now. You compare a bunch of terrorists and illiterate pathan warlords to the nizam-e-mustafa.

 

[Mumm-Ra]

If we get even half way there, we'll have a successful nation. People focus too much on labels, systems of governance is no exception. What a system is called, how it is implemented, what matters for people is always the same.

We want safety, we want shelter, we want food and clothing, we want dignity, we want freedom. That's all anyone wants.

Civilizations in IndoPak region are older than 1400 years ago with history of much more wealth and commerce as compared to Arabia..to emulate a 1400 year old system is actually going backwards not forward..

We need to stop fantasizing and romanticizing about the civil frameworks employed in those times. If one looks at tyhe reforms of Hazrat Umar (RA), he borrowed heavily from the Persian and the Roman systems of civil and military frameworks. He utilized what was best available at the time and molded it to his needs. instead of replicating that system, we should also follow his example and use whatever fits our criteria or mold multiple systems to our needs. Replicating the governance system of the Rashidin Caliphs will not be the solutions to our ills.

The wisdom of Islam is eternal. The sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh is not time limited, neither is the shariah. If you are an atheist or a non Muslim, then I won't bother having a conversation with you on the matter. If you are a Muslim, you must accept that, it is a basic part of your aqeeda. All that should matter is living every aspect of your life in accordance to that. Every decision, every policy should be influenced by that. Wealth and ancestory is meaningless in comparison.

You misunderstand his point. the Shariah is her to stay but that should not mean that we replicate age old tribal systems word by word.

 

[313ghazi]

We need to stop fantasizing and romanticizing about the civil frameworks employed in those times. If one looks at tyhe reforms of Hazrat Umar (RA), he borrowed heavily from the Persian and the Roman systems of civil and military frameworks. He utilized what was best available at the time and molded it to his needs. instead of replicating that system, we should also follow his example and use whatever fits our criteria or mold multiple systems to our needs. Replicating the governance system of the Rashidin Caliphs will not be the solutions to our ills.

Look at my words carefully. I've not made many posts on this forum, it's possible to read them all. I have NEVER advocated replicating or copying or mimicing something done 1400 years ago. I have always advoctated implementing a system based on the same principles.

 

[somebozo]

The wisdom of Islam is eternal. The sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh is not time limited, neither is the shariah. If you are an atheist or a non Muslim, then I won't bother having a conversation with you on the matter. If you are a Muslim, you must accept that, it is a basic part of your aqeeda. All that should matter is living every aspect of your life in accordance to that. Every decision, every policy should be influenced by that. Wealth and ancestory is meaningless in comparison.



You are now showing your own ignorance and your contempt for the system of Allah now. You compare a bunch of terrorists and illiterate pathan warlords to the nizam-e-mustafa.

the Saudis disagree and putting any opposing cleric in Jail.
They have even abolished the Hijri calendar for official accounting.

 

[Mumm-Ra]

Look at my words carefully. I've not made many posts on this forum, it's possible to read them all. I have NEVER advocated replicating or copying or mimicing something done 1400 years ago. I have always advoctated implementing a system based on the same principles.

Multiple scholars of Islam including the great Moulana Moududi talked at length about creating system "based on the Islamic Principles". Yet, in all their writings and lectures, they have only provided haphazard blueprint for such a system. None of them could be bothered to tell us what exactly are we supposed to do to implement such a system. I am wholly in favour of your point but unless you can give an Islamic framework that incorporates the rights and responsibilities of the modern nation state, your suggestion is just that, a suggestion.

the Saudis disagree and putting any opposing cleric in Jail.
They have even abolished the Hijri calendar for official accounting.

The Saudis are the most hypocritical pieces of filth on this earth. Show them enough money and they will sell anything to you. If they are a truly Islamic regime, why are they opening a fu**ing bikini beach their?

 

[313ghazi]

the Saudis disagree and putting any opposing cleric in Jail.
They have even abolished the Hijri calendar for official accounting.

The Saudis? Their opinions is as valid as Israels. Perhaps we can appoint @Solomon2 as grand mufti.

I use the gregorian calendar, it's a much better calendar, night and day are easier to guage than the moon. There is no Islamic compulsion to use the hiji calendar, except for guaging when Islamic religious events fall.

I get the feeling from your responses that you take me for some closet extremist who wants to time travel back to the middle ages. If you are Muslim, you should hold Islamic principles dear.

When we discuss business and ideas on how to move forwards in business, we shouldn't lose sight of those. For example interest. The whole world pays and recieves interest on debt, it's haram - we should look to minimise it in our business practises.

When we discuss governance we should consider islamic principles in governance. I don't give a shit who prays and who doesn't, Islam makes that clear it's a personal matter - what governance should include from an islamic perspective is looking after the poor, welfare, market regulation to make sure essentials are not priced out of the reach of the poor etc. These are ideas that socialists and capitalists use too. This takes us back to where we started. Nationalisation is another socialist idea, parts of it, if implemented correctly are not bad.

Multiple scholars of Islam including the great Moulana Moududi talked at length about creating system "based on the Islamic Principles". Yet, in all their writings and lectures, they have only provided haphazard blueprint for such a system. None of them could be bothered to tell us what exactly are we supposed to do to implement such a system. I am wholly in favour of your point but unless you can give an Islamic framework that incorporates the rights and responsibilities of the modern nation state, your suggestion is just that, a suggestion.


The Saudis are the most hypocritical pieces of filth on this earth. Show them enough money and they will sell anything to you. If they are a truly Islamic regime, why are they opening a fu**ing bikini beach their?

Bhai saab this is not the work for maulanas. This is the work for political scientists, economists, great minds from all over the world. 1000 years ago the world was smaller, there was less knowledge in it and it was possible to be an expert in a large part of the known knowledge. Today that is impossible for even machine, let alone man.

I think what you want is a decades long process. If I was in charge here is how I would approach such a solution;

1. Find/train world class Islamic scholars - not people who are passed from rote learning, but real academics, thinking minds. There are not many in the world, but there are still some.

2. Find/train and then hire some of the great economists, social thinkers, political scientists of our time. They don't even have to Pakistani or Muslim, they just need to be subject matter experts.

3. Partner them together in teams to look at models for an economy, for a political system, for transition between current systems to new systems.

4. Train the academics in Islam and train the mullahs in the area they are being asked to help provide islamic reference for. Maybe like 3-4 years of full time education on the matter to give them a basic understanding.

5. Ask them to them start developing a new system of governance and finance which;
a - considers the existing systems, including their flaws and strengths
b - considers what the islamic perspective on said systems is

6. I'd then also create a second set of teams of the same sort to review and challenge the thinking of the first set of teams. I'd also like to include in this set of teams moral thinkers from other cultures, religions, atheists etc. Afterall any successful system which is going to fit into the world model must be one that others understand and aren't threatened by.

7. I'd also like to make the workings of these groups open to the public, work and ideas regularly being published online with feedback and review from the wider global community. It'd be completely transparent and open source.

It would be a truly global effort, an effort for the sake of betterment of lives around the world. My thinking is not about empire building, it's about quality of life and morality.

 

[Mumm-Ra]

The Saudis? Their opinions is as valid as Israels. Perhaps we can appoint @Solomon2 as grand mufti.

I use the gregorian calendar, it's a much better calendar, night and day are easier to guage than the moon. There is no Islamic compulsion to use the hiji calendar, except for guaging when Islamic religious events fall.

I get the feeling from your responses that you take me for some closet extremist who wants to time travel back to the middle ages. If you are Muslim, you should hold Islamic principles dear.

When we discuss business and ideas on how to move forwards in business, we shouldn't lose sight of those. For example interest. The whole world pays and recieves interest on debt, it's haram - we should look to minimise it in our business practises.

When we discuss governance we should consider islamic principles in governance. I don't give a shit who prays and who doesn't, Islam makes that clear it's a personal matter - what governance should include from an islamic perspective is looking after the poor, welfare, market regulation to make sure essentials are not priced out of the reach of the poor etc. These are ideas that socialists and capitalists use too. This takes us back to where we started. Nationalisation is another socialist idea, parts of it, if implemented correctly are not bad.



Bhai saab this is not the work for maulanas. This is the work for political scientists, economists, great minds from all over the world. 1000 years ago the world was smaller, there was less knowledge in it and it was possible to be an expert in a large part of the known knowledge. Today that is impossible for even machine, let alone man.

I think what you want is a decades long process. If I was in charge here is how I would approach such a solution;

1. Find/train world class Islamic scholars - not people who are passed from rote learning, but real academics, thinking minds. There are not many in the world, but there are still some.

2. Find/train and then hire some of the great economists, social thinkers, political scientists of our time. They don't even have to Pakistani or Muslim, they just need to be subject matter experts.

3. Partner them together in teams to look at models for an economy, for a political system, for transition between current systems to new systems.

4. Train the academics in Islam and train the mullahs in the area they are being asked to help provide islamic reference for. Maybe like 3-4 years of full time education on the matter to give them a basic understanding.

5. Ask them to them start developing a new system of governance and finance which;
a - considers the existing systems, including their flaws and strengths
b - considers what the islamic perspective on said systems is

6. I'd then also create a second set of teams of the same sort to review and challenge the thinking of the first set of teams. I'd also like to include in this set of teams moral thinkers from other cultures, religions, atheists etc. Afterall any successful system which is going to fit into the world model must be one that others understand and aren't threatened by.

7. I'd also like to make the workings of these groups open to the public, work and ideas regularly being published online with feedback and review from the wider global community. It'd be completely transparent and open source.

It would be a truly global effort, an effort for the sake of betterment of lives around the world. My thinking is not about empire building, it's about quality of life and morality.

I admire you thinking but these things have been tried by various policy makers with the same result. Failure.
1 & 2. There is no dearth of people who are world class Islamic scholars. However, a major bone of contention is the sect from which the scholar hails from. Since, the Saudis and the Iranians are self appointed guardians of Sunni and Shia sect any compromise from their respectively trained scholars could not be achieved.

3. Continuation of policies is a major factor here. One of the regulations of the Zia regime was to develop an Islamic framework for banking. After his demise, all the research and the studies were buried somewhere.

4.Training the Mullahs is easier said that done. They would not even let us register their seminaries and to change or even upgrade their view of life is a lost cause.

5. As for a new system of governance, we could barely achieve consensus on the 1973 constitution. Good luck trying to come up with another document that can achieve any similar consensus.

6. Try to first change the country's system. The world can wait.

7. That we can agree on.

Once again, your scheme can only happen from a position of power and at this time no on seems to in any hurry to get such a framework started. Your heart is in the right place but unfortunately, your task will have to be done by you and you alone.

 

[313ghazi]

1 & 2. There is no dearth of people who are world class Islamic scholars. However, a major bone of contention is the sect from which the scholar hails from. Since, the Saudis and the Iranians are self appointed guardians of Sunni and Shia sect any compromise from their respectively trained scholars could not be achieved.

I think flexibility is key to this. There doesn't have to be just one way, wherever possible there could be different applications. Look at taxes. Everyone pays them, we all pay different amounts based on different conditions. Also it's better to do 90% of something than 100% of nothing. I don't think the gap is as wide as the politics makes it.

3. Continuation of policies is a major factor here. One of the regulations of the Zia regime was to develop an Islamic framework for banking. After his demise, all the research and the studies were buried somewhere.

100% agree. These decisions have to be society wide, something everyone wants to consider and work towards. The 5 year dance is one of the main reasons we are held back. Everyone 5 years the first year is spent undoing the last lots work, the second and third year planning your own work, the fourth year actually doing some work and the 5th year planning to win the next election.

4.Training the Mullahs is easier said that done. They would not even let us register their seminaries and to change or even upgrade their view of life is a lost cause.

Who's going to ask kambhakt people like that to participate? Like you said the world is full of mullahs and the ones you'd want to get involved would have to be bright educated people, not the Fazlur Rehmans of the world.

5. As for a new system of governance, we could barely achieve consensus on the 1973 constitution. Good luck trying to come up with another document that can achieve any similar consensus.

Negativity won't get the job done. Everyone has reservations for a reason. All policy is based on compromise within defined limits.

6. Try to first change the country's system. The world can wait.

We have a long way to go before that. The first changes should be individual. Then within families and friends, then communities and then you can think about asking strangers to change at village/city/federal level.

How many of us don't litter - not even a cigarette stub? You can't be asking people to do thinngs you already aren't doing.

7. That we can agree on.

your task will have to be done by you and you alone.

then it'll never get done. Too much time on PDF and netflix...lol

---

I sometimes look at the state of our country and I despair. Governed by crooks, policed by thugs, educational standards falling, nutrional standards falling, cost of living rising, society split along ethnic background, political affiliation, caste, language. Selfishness core to peoples values, religion a curse and a burden and most frustrating of all, opportunities wasted.

With a bit more good will, with a bit more morality, with a bit more trust, we could turn the tide. For me that good will, morality and trust has to come from people who hold proper values, for Muslims those values come from Islam.

A friend once said that we the people under estimate our own strength. He said if at the next election we all just didn't show up to vote the system would know the end had come. It's true - look at the strength of individuals. Edhi saab, a poor frail man provided a crutch to an entire nation. We have people like Alamgir Khan in Karachi who is fixing potholes and other such things from donations collected on the street. We have millions of people who have nothing but still put something in the chanda box at the mazars and masjids, where those with even less eat for free. If we the people start working to be the change we want, one day it will come.

 

[Mumm-Ra]

I think flexibility is key to this. There doesn't have to be just one way, wherever possible there could be different applications. Look at taxes. Everyone pays them, we all pay different amounts based on different conditions. Also it's better to do 90% of something than 100% of nothing. I don't think the gap is as wide as the politics makes it.

The gap might not be that wide but it would take a shrewed negotiator to get them to agree on somethings.

100% agree. These decisions have to be society wide, something everyone wants to consider and work towards. The 5 year dance is one of the main reasons we are held back. Everyone 5 years the first year is spent undoing the last lots work, the second and third year planning your own work, the fourth year actually doing some work and the 5th year planning to win the next election.

Its how we use that plan. The five year plan has worked wonders elsewhere so it should theoretically also work for us. Unfortunately, the planning division is now a lackey of MOF and the MOF can not think of anything beyond one year.

We have a long way to go before that. The first changes should be individual. Then within families and friends, then communities and then you can think about asking strangers to change at village/city/federal level.

How many of us don't litter - not even a cigarette stub? You can't be asking people to do thinngs you already aren't doing.

I will disagree on you here. These things are followed from above. What the boss does, his subordinates will follow. If we see that our leaders are setting a good example and following the rules, you can be sure that the people will follow them.

then it'll never get done. Too much time on PDF and netflix...lol

Same here. Too much time on PDF

I sometimes look at the state of our country and I despair. Governed by crooks, policed by thugs, educational standards falling, nutrional standards falling, cost of living rising, society split along ethnic background, political affiliation, caste, language. Selfishness core to peoples values, religion a curse and a burden and most frustrating of all, opportunities wasted.

With a bit more good will, with a bit more morality, with a bit more trust, we could turn the tide. For me that good will, morality and trust has to come from people who hold proper values, for Muslims those values come from Islam.

A friend once said that we the people under estimate our own strength. He said if at the next election we all just didn't show up to vote the system would know the end had come. It's true - look at the strength of individuals. Edhi saab, a poor frail man provided a crutch to an entire nation. We have people like Alamgir Khan in Karachi who is fixing potholes and other such things from donations collected on the street. We have millions of people who have nothing but still put something in the chanda box at the mazars and masjids, where those with even less eat for free. If we the people start working to be the change we want, one day it will come.

We have a great resolve to solve problems that would have baffled anyone else. We have the people who can turn around things for the better (not IK). We can change the fate of this country but we still need a guiding hand to lead us and that is what we lack.

 

[313ghazi]

We have a great resolve to solve problems that would have baffled anyone else. We have the people who can turn around things for the better (not IK). We can change the fate of this country but we still need a guiding hand to lead us and that is what we lack.

We can't be friends anymore, you insulted my pir.