Images & Video of Shaheen-5 Participants

[MastanKhan]

The next war will be fought not in WVR domain but in BVR domain. HMDS killed the WVR and dogfighting. I hope PAF has came out of this mentality and develop nice counter BVR techniques to handle MKI, Upgraded Mirages, Migs and Upcoming rafales who all will feature sophisticated long range BVR

Hi,

Paf has not come out of this mentality---they have their heads shoved up their ar-ses---.

I mean to say that the nations are spending over a million dollar per BVR missile---and paf says that it does not work!

 

[Umair Nawaz]

@Horus @Windjammer sohnio tasveer v tay kaddo na

 

[aatijinnah]

Is anyone knows about our air force flying with JH-7A vs thrilling JF17????

 

[Imran Khan]

@Horus @Windjammer sohnio tasveer v tay kaddo na

baba ji karachi se to mirage of f-7 sham hoty hi niklty rahy per unchy thy bhut

 

[TaimiKhan]

Hi,

Paf has not come out of this mentality---they have their heads shoved up their ar-ses---.

I mean to say that the nations are spending over a million dollar per BVR missile---and paf says that it does not work!

If PAF said it does not works, then would not have acquired AMRAAMs or SD-10s.

I had a discussion regarding BVR thing with a Blk 52 pilot. As per discussion the success of BVR missile depends on a lot of factors and due to that the success rate for BVR missile comes down and at long ranges especially its easy to counter BVR. And the thinking of PAF is based on their training experience which is why it has full emphasis on BVR training, WVR which includes missiles & gunnery practice & due to this thing PAF was able to have excellent record against British Typhoons & Spanish F-18s in Anatolian Eagle. Turks had excellent records against the both also. PAF guys have not their heads shoved up their arses, the know what needs to be done and one of the reason PAF is so much into foreign training exercises in last few years.

 

[PakShaheen79]

The next war will be fought not in WVR domain but in BVR domain. HMDS killed the WVR and dogfighting. I hope PAF has came out of this mentality and develop nice counter BVR techniques to handle MKI, Upgraded Mirages, Migs and Upcoming rafales who all will feature sophisticated long range BVR

Well, I agree that element of BVR engagements in the air combat will be there and I also agree that PAF must prepare for this sort of air battles but, IMHO, not the entire air war will be about BVR. Considering the geographical proximity of Pakistan and India, it is inevitable that WVR engagements will take place. Our challenge has not shifted from WVR to BVR, it has just evolved into complex set of scenarios which demand pilots and planes which can handle threats from everywhere. Air (both WVR+BVR) and ground (SAMs - Considering PAF conducting air assaults in enemy skies).

Considering this, missiles with dual-role like MICA will become weapon of choice.

 

[aatijinnah]

SU-30MKK. ...Confirmed.

I thought its Su-27

 

[Quwa]

The next war will be fought not in WVR domain but in BVR domain. HMDS killed the WVR and dogfighting. I hope PAF has came out of this mentality and develop nice counter BVR techniques to handle MKI, Upgraded Mirages, Migs and Upcoming rafales who all will feature sophisticated long range BVR

It'll be case by case, even in the next war. LOAL has promise, but it's still a difficult feat to pull off a kill under those conditions, especially if we're talking about standard ARH AAM versus DRFM-based EW/ECM. I still feel the Indians will try to gun for a hard radar-lock on our jets before letting loose their BVRAAM. As for us, it is in our incentive to refine and perfect LOAL BVR combat, especially since the JF-17 is our backbone asset.

To pull this off we will need AAM with very high kill probability in LOAL scenarios (potentially meaning AESA-tipped), a Chinese equivalent to Meteor would be ideal. Until then, I think the PAF will want to try and pull in whatever IAF fighter into WVR, so that utilize a HOBS AAM slaved to HMD/S (with the JF-17's radar switched-off).

Alternatively, the availability of FC-31 would help tremendously, especially if equipped with a high-powered AESA radar to scope out 3m2 or standard fighter-sized targets at long distances.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Until then, I think the PAF will want to try and pull in whatever IAF fighter into WVR, so that utilize a HOBS AAM slaved to HMD/S (with the JF-17's radar switched-off).

You want to take on SU 30 ; Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 in WVR with JF 17
Good luck with that

 

[Quwa]

You want to take on SU 30 ; Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 in WVR with JF 17
Good luck with that

Wasn't long ago I heard some talk about MiG-21bis with HMS taking on top tier fighters, why can't our 'souped up F-7?' Though seriously, will a JF-17 armed with a 5th HOBS AAM and HMD/S not be a credible threat to a Su-30 or MiG-29 or M2K?

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Just out of curiosity, why does IAF always sends it's MKIs overseas, why not the likes of MiG-29s or MK2s. !!!

The Foreign airforces also have a SAY when we talk of Joint exercises
They Insist and demand that we bring the MKI

That is why MKI has exercised with Typhoons ;Rafales ; F 15 and F 16

The SINGAPORE F 16 Block 52 are present in India all year along

And every plane of IAF gets a chance to fight with them

Wasn't long ago I heard some talk about MiG-21bis with HMS taking on top tier fighters, why can't our 'souped up F-7?' Though seriously, will a JF-17 armed with a 5th HOBS AAM and HMD/S not be a credible threat to a Su-30 or MiG-29 or M2K?

That was under Heavy Numerical superiority ( 3 :1 )
You are referring to Cope 2004

We had stimulated Large force engagements where by A
Mixed Force of SU 30 and Mig 21 would engage with F 15 C

The Ratio was deliberately kept at 3 :1 to simulate an IAF Vs PAF scenario

We wanted to see how good The Mig 21 Bison is when it WORKS along WITH an SU 30

The Elta Jammer of Mig 21 helps it to get into a merge with A better plane
and the HOBS + HMDS does the rest

But a stand alone Mig 21 in a 1 : 1 fight would be dead

SO JF 17 would need Numerical superiority to take out SU 30 ; Mig 29 and Mirage2000

In a 1 : 1 scene ; it is next to impossible

 

[weqi]

Sir, SU 30 MKI is the best thing ever happen in the history of aeronautical engineering.....
J 11 is a sitting duck when pitched against the gigantic SU 30 MKI....

why india is going for Rafale ?????????????

 

[Abingdonboy]

Just out of curiosity, why does IAF always sends it's MKIs overseas, why not the likes of MiG-29s or MK2s. !!!

It's a good question and all I can think is that the IAF is trying to get its main fighter stream as much exposure as possible in the foriegn arena. With 300 (twin seat) MKIs the MKI's fighter jocks (and WSOs) will dominate the IAF's fighter stream wheras there are only 60 (or so) MiG-29s and 50 (or so) Mirage 2000s and they have been around for donkey's years (mid 80s) whilst the MKIs have only been around since the early 00s so learning and evolving is still going on.

Although, note that this year the IAF has sent 4 MKIs and 4 Jaguar (DARIN III) to Red Flag Alaska (and had sent Jags in the past to Alaska) and when foreign AFs come to exercise in India the IAF employs many of its types (Mirage 2000s, MiG-29s, MiG-21/7 and Jags). The AFB where the RSAF have their F-16 contingent year round is home to an MKI and MiG-27 SQN so there is a lot of DACT that the IAF does internally as well as externally with foriegn nations.

May be because both MIG-29 B and Mirrage 2000 H didn't had the aerial Refuel probe, which is needed for crossing the Atlantic Oceans and long distance.

The MiG-29Bs are getting IFR probes with the upgrade to the "UPG standard:

The Mirage 2000Hs of the IAF have had IFR probes since the early 00s.

 

[Hellfire]

Don't blame Indians when they say they are afraid of two front war
Two front war is not fiction any more
At least PLAAF will participate in any upcoming major conflict in Kashmir ......

Nope Tipu China wont

@Stephen Cohen you forgot one aspect of Mig-21, the RCS is great and it is still difficult to pick out in low level ...... BIs upgrades are decent enough so your 1:1 being a sure shot death of Mig 21 is slightly skewed IMO.

 

[Bratva]

Well, I agree that element of BVR engagements in the air combat will be there and I also agree that PAF must prepare for this sort of air battles but, IMHO, not the entire air war will be about BVR. Considering the geographical proximity of Pakistan and India, it is inevitable that WVR engagements will take place. Our challenge has not shifted from WVR to BVR, it has just evolved into complex set of scenarios which demand pilots and planes which can handle threats from everywhere. Air (both WVR+BVR) and ground (SAMs - Considering PAF conducting air assaults in enemy skies).

Considering this, missiles with dual-role like MICA will become weapon of choice.

If PAF said it does not works, then would not have acquired AMRAAMs or SD-10s.

I had a discussion regarding BVR thing with a Blk 52 pilot. As per discussion the success of BVR missile depends on a lot of factors and due to that the success rate for BVR missile comes down and at long ranges especially its easy to counter BVR. And the thinking of PAF is based on their training experience which is why it has full emphasis on BVR training, WVR which includes missiles & gunnery practice & due to this thing PAF was able to have excellent record against British Typhoons & Spanish F-18s in Anatolian Eagle. Turks had excellent records against the both also. PAF guys have not their heads shoved up their arses, the know what needs to be done and one of the reason PAF is so much into foreign training exercises in last few years.

Defination of WVR itself has been changed. In todays scenario, 30-40 KM is considered WVR. If you are in this limit, Only Almighty can save you from the french or Russian BVR. Longer than that it will be a game of teasing, firing BVR on each other to make oneself to turn away from battle and flee and whoever turns away will be allowing an enemy aerial package consisting 2+2 or 3+3 formation to come in to one's defenses.

Lets imagine a scenario, on Su-30 MKI or one French Rafael with 12 BVR firing upon Pakistani packages at a range of 90-120 KM considering Long range French, Israeli and Russian BVR would be integrated onto them by now. On top of that, Indian EW game is also strong. They can confuse our radars with their Aesa based DRFM jammers.

Current inventory of Pakistani BVR have ranges b/w 50-80 KM. Former being SD-10 A which has maximum launch distance of 70 KM later being AMRAM with max distance of 100 KM and I'm not seeing any changes in BVR inventory for upto distant future i.e 10-15 years.

On top of that PAF can not cross into India with ease considering the dense SAM coverage over there. So we would be forced to fight war at our own turf.


Considering all such things and lack of HOBS missile. That is why I said, dog fighting and WVR up to 20 KM should be prefered less

It'll be case by case, even in the next war. LOAL has promise, but it's still a difficult feat to pull off a kill under those conditions, especially if we're talking about standard ARH AAM versus DRFM-based EW/ECM. I still feel the Indians will try to gun for a hard radar-lock on our jets before letting loose their BVRAAM. As for us, it is in our incentive to refine and perfect LOAL BVR combat, especially since the JF-17 is our backbone asset.

To pull this off we will need AAM with very high kill probability in LOAL scenarios (potentially meaning AESA-tipped), a Chinese equivalent to Meteor would be ideal. Until then, I think the PAF will want to try and pull in whatever IAF fighter into WVR, so that utilize a HOBS AAM slaved to HMD/S (with the JF-17's radar switched-off).

Alternatively, the availability of FC-31 would help tremendously, especially if equipped with a high-powered AESA radar to scope out 3m2 or standard fighter-sized targets at long distances.

Hard radar lock will be secondary choice imho. First preference would be given to lock onto aircraft through IRST and EW based sensors. Taking example of Rafael sensor suit, even its radar is turned off it can easily lock onto through its SPectra and IRST.

Only saving grace I would see A combination of extremely reliable aesa radar DRFM based EW suit and PL-15 BVR on JF-17 to stand up to IAF combo. Less than that JF-17 would be a turkey shoot for IAF. Currenk KLJ and SD-10 A combo is extremely weak to take onto Upgraded and newly acquired aircrafts of IAF.