Ilya Kramnik Russian military expert call Pakistan potential buyer of SU35

[araz]

People Can I remind you all that this is a thread about POSSIBLE procurement of SU35s for PAF. So can we get back to topic.
On topic my gut feeling is that even though I love the SU35 and have seen it in flight and it is amazing, personally I see problems with it for PAF.
The PAF could get a coule of squadrons and it would suffice our need for the whole country. We need a central place and due to its immense range it will cover all the fronts. The AL117 is reportedly a beauty and one of the latest and best that Russia has produced. As to the plane itself the titanium alloy build is much better than earlier models and insures at least on paper a smooth and trouble free maintenance for 6000 hrs. the corrosion associated with the use in salty sea environment can be a problem but presumably not too cumbersome to solve. So what are the drawbacks.
Firstly I think it is too soon for the Russians to offer such a plane for PAF. The later itself might be reluctant to accept the offer on account of problems in case Russia decides to change its mind or there are problems with the supply chain, something which the Russians are known about. The lack of any other countries buying the platform at the moment might mean we will be left out high and dry in case of any interruptions to supply chain. we will never buy enough numbers to be able to get TOT and depot level maintenance for 2 squadrons might be expensive on account of lack of familiarity with the engine. It currently does not have an AESA and although the Radar is massive PAF might want to have AESA with the platform. If it does where will the radar come form and the cost involved and will the Russians be willing to accommodate our request for a change of radar. We don't have any commonality with the Russian weapons. To make life easier we might want EU/Chinese BVRs and other bells and whistles integrated on it and again there might be problems from the Russian side.The final aspect is a very common one for all Pakistani acquisitions which is finance. At 60 odd million a plane 36 might set us back a long way and whether this is possible remains to be seen. So can we lighten the burden.
I think a lot depends on how welcoming the Russians might be and in the current situation with our fledgeling relations with Russia it does seem a bridge too far.
Araz.

 

[black-hawk_101]

Better is to acquire Chinese SU-27s with upgrades that can be given to just PN. PN can easily cancel the JFT and go for SU-27s. Chinese can easily supply it with Russian permission at a very cheap rates.

PN can upgrade it with Russian latest systems at PAC and keep them for the next 15 years.

 

[princefaisal]

China has 75 Su-27s, 73 Su-30MKKs, 24 J-16s and 205+ J-11B/D but still demanding Su-35. So Su-35 is something special.

 

[Blue Marlin]

People Can I remind you all that this is a thread about POSSIBLE procurement of SU35s for PAF. So can we get back to topic.
On topic my gut feeling is that even though I love the SU35 and have seen it in flight and it is amazing, personally I see problems with it for PAF.
The PAF could get a coule of squadrons and it would suffice our need for the whole country. We need a central place and due to its immense range it will cover all the fronts. The AL117 is reportedly a beauty and one of the latest and best that Russia has produced. As to the plane itself the titanium alloy build is much better than earlier models and insures at least on paper a smooth and trouble free maintenance for 6000 hrs. the corrosion associated with the use in salty sea environment can be a problem but presumably not too cumbersome to solve. So what are the drawbacks.
Firstly I think it is too soon for the Russians to offer such a plane for PAF. The later itself might be reluctant to accept the offer on account of problems in case Russia decides to change its mind or there are problems with the supply chain, something which the Russians are known about. The lack of any other countries buying the platform at the moment might mean we will be left out high and dry in case of any interruptions to supply chain. we will never buy enough numbers to be able to get TOT and depot level maintenance for 2 squadrons might be expensive on account of lack of familiarity with the engine. It currently does not have an AESA and although the Radar is massive PAF might want to have AESA with the platform. If it does where will the radar come form and the cost involved and will the Russians be willing to accommodate our request for a change of radar. We don't have any commonality with the Russian weapons. To make life easier we might want EU/Chinese BVRs and other bells and whistles integrated on it and again there might be problems from the Russian side.The final aspect is a very common one for all Pakistani acquisitions which is finance. At 60 odd million a plane 36 might set us back a long way and whether this is possible remains to be seen. So can we lighten the burden.
I think a lot depends on how welcoming the Russians might be and in the current situation with our fledgeling relations with Russia it does seem a bridge too far.
Araz.

i agree pakistan should not bother with the su35. not even worth the hassle if you ask me. its a good jet yes, but its going to be a hangar queen, something you dont want. the eft is your best bet but thats twice as expensive as th su-35 so thats not going to happen either. the j10b is your only realistic option.

 

[araz]

i agree pakistan should not bother with the su35. not even worth the hassle if you ask me. its a good jet yes, but its going to be a hangar queen, something you dont want. the eft is your best bet but thats twice as expensive as th su-35 so thats not going to happen either. the j10b is your only realistic option.

The realistic option in my view is to sit tight and develop JFT,pick up older F16s as and when available and wait for the J31. EFT beautiful as it is is too expensive, the SU35 is the nine tailed fox with too many imponderables and J10 at least in my humble opinion does not bring anything new to the table. J11/16s are unlikely to be available for sale.
Araz

 

[Blue Marlin]

your right but low numbers of the j10b will be a stop gap. and is a good idea. the eft and su35 can only be a poster on the wall. where do you think you can get old f16's from? the j11/j16 i am not even bothering to even look at, its out of the question.
your right the jf17 is something you should develop, but how many are you procuring. some say 150 others say 200 and even 250 how many will you get. i know they will replace the f-7 and the mirage 3/5 and you have about 300+ planes to replace there and only buying 250 max is a decrease in numbers.

the j31 is a jet to be looking forward to. do you think you will get tot?

 

[Paksanity]

your right but low numbers of the j10b will be a stop gap. and is a good idea. the eft and su35 can only be a poster on the wall. where do you think you can get old f16's from? the j11/j16 i am not even bothering to even look at, its out of the question.
your right the jf17 is something you should develop, but how many are you procuring. some say 150 others say 200 and even 250 how many will you get. i know they will replace the f-7 and the mirage 3/5 and you have about 300+ planes to replace there and only buying 250 max is a decrease in numbers.

the j31 is a jet to be looking forward to. do you think you will get tot?

What does J-10B bring on table that an MLU F-16 doesn't? Save for sanctions protection.

 

[Blue Marlin]

What does J-10B bring on table that an MLU F-16 doesn't? Save for sanctions protection.

the question you should be asking is what does it not bring.

 

[Paksanity]

the question you should be asking is what does it not bring.

How does already installed support infrastructure and trained personnel sound as an answer? Proven combat record too!

 

[Blue Marlin]

How does already installed support infrastructure and trained personnel sound as an answer? Proven combat record too!

thats sounds fine. but how does cheaper higher performing jet . old f16's are old and yes there a mild life upgrade which is good but then you got the problem of finding used f16's to buy where are you going to buy them from.

i hear isreal is getting rid of some why not go try your luck there.

the us has plenty in storage in the Arizona desert but they wont give them.

Norway Belgium, Denmark and the Netherlands are slowly replacing theres is a possibility it might happen.

greece has block 52 but there are too expensive.

Portugal is getting rid of theres they sold some to Romania in fact.

bahrain most possibly
egypt no chance
jordan they sold you their old jets already
oman i doubt it
turkey no but you can try
uae dream on block60's

i think pakistan is following a rose styled program where they are buying old f16 and doing them up to better standards. the j10b would complement this nicely and is likely to be inducted no to long from now as they are good to be exported. so the f16 is good, but getting them would pose a challenge.

 

[Quwa]

If the PAF is planning to pick up used F-16s, then I assure you all that the source will not be as easily expected, and we will know when the time comes (as was the case with Jordan). For now, let's not worry too much about it.

 

[Viper0011.]

Save for sanctions protection.

I don't think Pakistan will ever get sanctioned, unless something big happened in terms of some terrorism crap and the gov't or the military of Pakistan is found to be directly involved at some level. Which, I don't foresee happening as there is a democratic system in place and both, the civilians and the military are too focused on combating and removing terrorism out of Pakistan.

Once the system starts to produce what its suppose to, a LOT of stuff will change, people, social life, income levels, all will change. Resulting in total removal of these extremist views as no one would hear them, would need them or want them. Everyone would be busy pursuing a better lifestyle and good stuff that comes with life, like it is in bigger cities already.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Great points , that is exactly why we need the Sukhoi-35 for removal of Terrorism

 

[black-hawk_101]

Great points , that is exactly why we need the Sukhoi-35 for removal of Terrorism

But still Chinese SU-27s with Russian upgrades and latest avionics would be the best Match for the PN Air Fleet to cover the whole south region and even to kill terrorist. I am sure they can carry 6 tons of Payload and after upgrade they will have a life span of about 15 years.

 

[princefaisal]

J-10 & J-11 are available and can be purchased any time. However opportunity of getting Su-35 should be availed on priority. PAF can get its support from China in any worst case scenario.