If the Generals knew the India role in regime change, could it be stopped, evoking some India centric Ghairat.

[Jaeger]

You have to choose the best of the worse and khan is certainly better than other choices

They are all the same..sharif was once an Imran khan and Imran khan will becoming sharif soon.

 

[PradoTLC]

They are all the same..sharif was once an Imran khan and Imran khan will becoming sharif soon.

Not really

Nawj like a typical criminal and coward ran away and the courts still did not change their verdict .. khan stood his ground and got vindicated by the courts

 

[VkdIndian]

No, A one-man show run by a stupid guy can't be giant nation's best bet.

That’s a new perspective, I hadn’t thought about it. Now, IK appears to be the case of choosing the least worst out of the available options.

Imran had to make some tough decisions about trade with India, after what India did in Kashmir on August 5, 2019.

Even then, he could have continued the trade, since it adversely affected Pakistan more than India. He should have taken only those decisions which didn’t have adverse impact on oneself. There are many such examples across the world. Taiwan -China, Japan - China, Turkey - Israel, India - China etc are right in front of us. After Galwan India banned some apps etc but did not take any decision that would have adversely affected India. We have put further restrictions over time, but none impacting us adversely. All well calculated.

Whether directly or indirectly they want to be power all the time.

Anyone, who has tasted power would never let it go. Imran, Zardari, Sharifs, Establishmnet, no one.
At this point, it looks dark ahead for your nation. Things would turn around eventually. When? That’s the question.

Good luck.

 

[TacOps]

One has to really naive to believe that Imran Khan is trying to change anything at all. He just want to be back in power and will do whatever it takes.

Only an extremely principled man, with the backing of entire populace can bring about a revolution, that can put army in its place.

Imran khan is not a man of principles and once can clearly see that, in the life he has led, what he did to come into power and what he did once he was in power.

In a democracy civilians get to decide that, not you as an individual or the military.

You yourself said that popular leaders are ousted by the military and simply accept their fate - that's how it has worked in Pakistan. And you yourself are admitting that IK is not accepting that. That is what he is trying to change, something which will be better for all future elected governments.

 

[Jaeger]

In a democracy civilians get to decide that, not you as an individual or the military.

You yourself said that popular leaders are ousted by the military and simply accept their fate - that's how it has worked in Pakistan. And you yourself are admitting that IK is not accepting that. That is what he is trying to change, something which will be better for all future elected governments.

But he is not, all Imran khan is trying to do, is to convince the army, "let's to go back to the way things were", where he had the PM's chair and establishment was undermining his opposition, to keep him in power, and when that does not work, he lashes out at the army from time to time, like a little kid.

If he really wanted to strengthen the democracy, he would have formed an alliance with all other democratic parties and resolved to keep army out of power.

So no matter, whoever formed the government, army would not have been able to control them by threatening to oust them and bringing their opposition back in power.

Even if that meant, that he would have to sit in the opposition for next 5 years as a show of faith.

 

[Meengla]

Pakistanis still don't understand, how their establishment works.

If Pakistan establishment could not rig the 1970s elections in favor of thier own candidate, which literally cause their country to split into two..they certainly did not rig 2017 election.

Election rigging in Pakistan does not happen at the voting stage, like booth capturing or vote counting stage.

Election fixing by the 'Establishment' happens much earlier, so that the "right parties" come into power.

That happens with electables being transfered or coerced into or out of a certain party.

Opponents being knocked out of the election by banning them, putting them in jail or making them flee the country.

Media houses coerced into reporting in favor of a party and against the other party.

Or after the election, smaller parties( the parties loyal to the establishment ) are nudged into making an alliance with their favored party to form a coalition government.

So Pakistani establishment certainly did fix the 2017 elections, but it was in favor of Imran khan, and not against him, as they wanted 3rd front to challenge the monopoly of Sharif's and Zardari's in Pakistani politics.

Imran khan was completely fine with it, as long as he got to be the PM.

That is why, I say Imran khan is not a man of principles, and he will not bring about any revolution in Pakistan, that will oust its army, out of its politics.

Where as Pakistani establishment are devious but their objectives are very simple.
Whether directly or indirectly they want to be power all the time.
They want to be the king makers and want puppet regimes, who would not challenge them, for they think, they know, what is best for their country.

Great summary about how the Establishment manipulates the elections in Pakistan! But I am now almost certain that the military doesn't want to get dragged into politics after Project Imran's spectacular failure which has tarnished the military's image a lot. Between April 2022 and May 9 2023, Imran was openly insulting the military and had effectively turned Pakistanis against the military but he was not touched much. Why? Because the military didn't want to get into the cesspool of managing Pakistan's politics anymore. But Imran's stupidity on May 9 finally made the Generals move. Also, it is to be noted, Imran is not fighting for some civilian supremacy blah blah. He was, like the others, fighting for POWER! What exactly did Imran do as the PM to threaten the status quo? And how could he have enabled real change in Pakistan with the likes of Sh. Rasheed and many others in his inner circle?

They are all the same..sharif was once an Imran khan and Imran khan will becoming sharif soon.

Yes. This is Pakistan's version of Game of Thrones where the elites with and without uniforms from central and northern Punjab are fighting for power. Look at how casually and seamlessly they are split between judiciary, the military, the political parties. I guess that elite class from that region has truly engineered a 'diversified investment portfolio'!!

Even then, he could have continued the trade, since it adversely affected Pakistan more than India. He should have taken only those decisions which didn’t have adverse impact on oneself. There are many such examples across the world. Taiwan -China, Japan - China, Turkey - Israel, India - China etc are right in front of us. After Galwan India banned some apps etc but did not take any decision that would have adversely affected India. We have put further restrictions over time, but none impacting us adversely. All well calculated.

I don't think there is any comparison between Galwan and Modi grabbing Kashmir on August 5, 2019. Imran made the right call on trade with India. There was not much else he or Pakistan could have done.

At this point, it looks dark ahead for your nation. Things would turn around eventually. When? That’s the question.

I don't think the future is that dark. The military Danda is about to swing. Bandaid being applied. The military always managed to stabilize and even bring some growth. This time won't be any exception. I consider General Asim Munir to be a Zia ul Haq reborn. He will revive the economy. But the big question is: What will happen after that? If Pakistan's ruling class has any wisdom, then they would put in place a rigid 'hybrid' system for 5-20 years to cleanse the mess, privatize the leeches like PIA and introduce mass reforms. Possible? Yes. Likely? Time will tell.

If he really wanted to strengthen the democracy, he would have formed an alliance with all other democratic parties and resolved to keep army out of power.

So no matter, whoever formed the government, army would not have been able to control them by threatening to oust them and bringing their opposition back in power.

Even if that meant, that he would have to sit in the opposition for next 5 years as a show of faith.

Imran and his followers--as the 'educated class' even on PDF--amply demonstrate that those who differ from them are to be viciously condemned. An example: Imran, after the Pulwarna 2019 attack, when Pakistan was facing huge strategic challenges, even refused to join a National Security Council meeting because Imran would have to sit with the Opposition lawmakers. THAT is Imran!!! Even though polls after polls would show that more than 60% actually casted votes are against Imran--in polls where Imran won too--Imran considers himself to be the only one and true representative of all Pakistanis. I just hope the real prison he's facing will reform him--make him a true statesman instead of foul-mouthed, container-riding agitator.

 

[VkdIndian]

There was not much else he or Pakistan could have done.

It is better not to do something, than to do something with no impact. Paksiatn was affected more by this move than India. That is water down the bridge now. India isn’t going to make any effort towards removing 370.

The military Danda is about to swing.

Military danda can do only this much. Your country needs a big economic revolution, a revolution that came to us in 1991. Military doesn’t have foresight and willingness for such a move.

Pakistan has a very large informal economy. So, it will never sink. But, formal economy is required for equitable distribution of wealth. Informal economy is good for those with means. All the sectors like health, education, electricity etc are supported by the state through formal economy. Hence, the poor will suffer in the long run. It is already visible. The rich are unaffected by price rise, the poor are.

 

[Meengla]

Military danda can do only this much. Your country needs a big economic revolution, a revolution that came to us in 1991. Military doesn’t have foresight and willingness for such a move.

Pakistan has a very large informal economy. So, it will never sink. But, formal economy is required for equitable distribution of wealth. Informal economy is good for those with means. All the sectors like health, education, electricity etc are supported by the state through formal economy. Hence, the poor will suffer in the long run. It is already visible. The rich are unaffected by price rise, the poor are.

The Military Danda is going to do way more than you and PDF members realize at this point. You see: Under Nawaz 2013 Pakistan GDP ended around 6%. Under Imran about 6%. So why the such low GDP numbers since Imran was ousted? Generally, I had been deferring to other Pakistanis here about economic matters because I never professed proficiency about economy. But I simply refuse to believe that the economy was so good under Imran in April 2022 and now so bad. It doesn't work like that for a country of Pakistan's size economy. However incompetent the PDM was--and they were--I don't think a 6% economy would be some 0.3% or whatever simply because Imran left. It's bullock!!

Coming back to the Military Danda, it is almost certainly going to revive Pakistan's economy. There is lot of corruption for decades and the military, in their attempt to let the 'civilians' rule, had turned a blind eye to what happened since the 2002 elections. But now they know that there is no more room left to be 'politically correct' and hence we have the Zia ul Haq reincarnated as General Munir. Pakistani military lost ground to the civilians after 9/11 but they are taking the ground back--no small thanks to Imran Khan.

So you all will see economic turnaround in Pakistan in the coming months. There is no way the Afghan currency could have been better than Pakistan's currency. Even a Hyderabad like city in Pakistan matches Afghanistan's premium Kabul. Pakistanis just have very bad breast-beating nature, especially from the sour losers of Imran Khan. A revival is around the corner. No more half measures.

 

[TacOps]

But he is not, all Imran khan is trying to do, is to convince the army, "let's to go back to the way things were", where he had the PM's chair and establishment was undermining his opposition, to keep him in power, and when that does not work, he lashes out at the army from time to time, like a little kid.

If he really wanted to strengthen the democracy, he would have formed an alliance with all other democratic parties and resolved to keep army out of power.

So no matter, whoever formed the government, army would not have been able to control them by threatening to oust them and bringing their opposition back in power.

Even if that meant, that he would have to sit in the opposition for next 5 years as a show of faith.

Everyone knows one of the primary bones of contention which led to the fallout was DG ISI appointment in which IK wanted to assert his authority. He wanted to bring the army under civilian control, as it should be and his actions support that notion.

Also, you are far removed from your original gripe that he should just stand aside and army take over because this is how Pakistan has been run.

 

[uhuru]

When MBS said this and where, on what occasion.

He is not interested... even told Sisi the crown pharoah,... get your shit together and stop the corporate army enterprises....

Egypt and Pak.. like for like of both sides - morally corrupt and incompetent armies lining up pockets -- f.. the masses.

Lost count how many times IK tweeted about Modi being the RSS pick, mentored by the parent RSS, the anti Muslim and anti Pakistan extremist Hindutva party.

Umpteenth times IK has written against the fascist, supremacist ideology of Modi, BJP, people came to knew about Hindutva, the RSS, the anti Pakistan ideology, the closet Nazi brown shirts, the savarkar, hedgewar and all the RSS founders.

And the fact that they never accepted the creation of Pakistan.

And Sharif family are the friends of Modi.

Was he not there to bless his daughter's wedding...