If Pakistan had money would the western countries sell their weapons to us?

[LeGenD]

Yes, but -- and @SQ8 may agree -- the reality of Pakistani "leadership" is that if we had GCC-type oil/gas money, we would look a lot like Nigeria and Venezuela than say Qatar or UAE. So, we'll still be broke.

Why?

So if there's a lot of oil/gas around, our elite will siphon it off to Dubai/London, and to keep our population quiet, pay them stipends (which our nation will use to import luxuries they can't afford) until we reach a monetary crisis.

How do I know this? Just look back to how we abused US aid.

Oh no - you gave us all a serious reality check....

 

[KaiserX]

Bro,

Of-course; WE are not anglo-saxons. PAK - US engagement cannot be all pinky and rosy - it never was to begin with. This was always a challenging partnership for both camps to maintain with limited people-to-people contact in the mix. But both camps managed to find common grounds to work with from time-to-time. Pakistan has certainly benefited from this dynamic in different ways including being allowed to become a nuclear power (Americans looked the other way) and receiving IMF bailout packages to keep our dysfunctional economy afloat and prevent collapse. They also played a role in improving education, infrastructure, and ICT sectors of Pakistan.

This bilateral dealing is complicated due to issues in our camp as well such as prevalence of corruption in Pakistani bureaucracy, societal imperfections (terrorism), and political sellouts who offer false promises to foreigners in exchange for making properties abroad. I am sure you understand how bad Pakistani political situation has been, and still is. Even in the present, Pakistan is making do with an IMF bailout package and trying to put its house in order.

WE have our share of complaints but so do they.

Pakistan is still a big and powerful country with geopolitical significance of its own. This is a reality which nobody can ignore and/or overlook for long-term.

PAK - US engagement can find new grounds to work with - future is full of possibilities if WE come to believe in ourselves, succeed in putting our own house in order, and hope for the best.

Read this article: https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/681417-marked-improvement-witnessed-in-pak-us-ties

If Pakistan and US could reach an understanding in Afghanistan (to Indian shock), more can be done.

https://www.state.gov/u-s-relations-with-pakistan/

It is easy to disengage and create new enemies. It is difficult to build and manage relationships. Isn't this true in personal capacity as well?

So please broaden your mind and hope. If you are living abroad, try to build connections for Pakistan in there. Pakistani nationals abroad are potential leverage points for Pakistan to build and maintain relationships with numerous foreign countries. Understand this.

And one more thing - Indians will cloud your mind. Do not pay heed. Stick to your guns.

I agree. Pakistan-US relations will be strong and dynamic for the decades to come. US will step up its role in Pakistan in order to try to counterweight Chinese influence. Pakistan will benefit from both the US/China, in this aspect IK did well foreign policy wise on reactivating relations with Washington.

Many of the top advisors of the govt. who are close to IK are close to Politicians in DC and are supported by both Democrats/Republicans. With the US leaving Afghanistan and Pakistan security situation being the best in decades this has created a perception that relations can move beyond terrorism and India.

India is no doubt a huge market. The US interest other than a strategic counterweight is for India to increase its imports from the US substantially including weapons. If India does not deliver (doubtful) then relations can turn sour pretty quick. Dont see this changing under either Trump nor the Democrats.

 

[fhk86khan1]

The Americans sold the F-16s as a bribe to fight against the Russians. Even back then we didn't have a super economy. Pakistan wanted F-16s in exchange for fighting the Cold War. This is a well-documented fact. The Americans gave us the F-16s reluctantly. The Americans had no choice.

But thats the point I am trying to make...Americans gave us the f-16s for strategic purposes and not for monetary purposes. If we had a tender valued at $15 billion and a booming economy and a rising military budget for the forseable future. I can almost guarantee they would bend over backwards to offer you the best deal.

Strategic positions change all the time...we leveraged our foreign policy to obtain tech & equipment...which was a shrewd and brilliant strategy at the time...but when your strategic leverage is erased or its relative importance diminishes...you no longer have bargaining power or a way to influence decision making.

Instead of leveraging your foreign policy, you can simply leverage money...which can only happen if you have a strong economy. You could basically say if you don't let me purchase from you, I'll invest this money...which I have plenty of in your rival's supplier and their ecosystem...thus strenghting them at the cost of the other.

Regardless, I am of the opinion that Pakistan should primarily spend on indigenous programs and only purchase as a stop gap measure.

 

[Patriot786b2]

I certainly feel on factual statements out if State Dept & white house, it's a big "No" to Pakistan for being the only Muslim country & with nukes.

 

[waz]

Yes they would and there are numerous cases of western offensive systems being offered, the issue was funds.
But it’s not wise to have your military reliant on such systems, in the event of war, relations sour, expect sanctions. It should be joint development or in-house.

 

[Vortex]

If we had money, why not invest ourselves in Education, R&D etc ?

 

[kursed]

If you had the money and the capacity to buy stuff in numbers, there's no country on the planet that would deny you access. Everyone likes their moolah. Even right now, with all the lack of funds, Italy / Germany / Sweden are giving access to Pakistan in weapon buys. Germany and Italy are pretty forthcoming on it. If we'd funds for 100 Rafales, France would turn into your best buddy - the next day. =)

This is the main issue with us, we generally never put much mind to having an economic muscle to back our military power, hence end up losing both. =)

 

[blain2]

Pakistan can very much afford Western weapons in current budget but problem is not the money here. US and West sell most of their products to Pakistan with strings attached to them. Our nuclear program is the biggest bone of contention between us.

These are all self-manufactured constraints making rounds in Pakistan. Nobody asks about our nuclear program when selling weapons. If we are seen as a spender with deep pockets, they will sell. Its simple business.

The issue is that most western countries look at this as a zero sum game. Can Pakistan pay and be considered a purchaser of big ticket items? If not then why hurt their chances of selling to India (Indians make noise over every single major weapons purchase by Pakistan, Pakistan does not. No protestation from us because we have no economic leverage!)

As such, given the dismal fiscal situation, its just better for us to use Chinese technology and train hard on its employment till our finances allow us to go into joint-initiatives with others besides China, Turkey and Ukraine. All is not bad with the tech on hand. It is incrementally getting better and in many areas, there is technical parity with Western systems.

As such, despite the above situation, I still believe the right answer is not to buy big ticket items off the shelf. We have to struggle and even make-do with toys that are not shiny. It builds character and will make Pakistani security more self-reliant in the long run.

 

[Zarvan]

Although I am not a big fan of importing defense-related products as you can never become self-reliant and will always be at the mercy of the seller. However, not everyone can produce a state of the art equipment for example 5th Generation Fighter jets.

As you may know, India has received its 5 Rafales, and that is because they have deep pockets. Yes, their poverty rate is also extremely high but as a big country, they do have big pockets. What if we had money, would France sell us their Rafales or Itlay would sell us their Astras?

We all know Lockheed Martin is looking for customers to keep their F-16 line going what if we had money would they be able to sell us they "F-21" with the same terms they were offering to India?

What do you guys think? One thing is for certain, in international relations, it is all about interest and money dictates those interests.

They already do. It's you who don't buy them. The only problem could be USA and if you had money like UAE or Saudi Arabia yes they would sell you every weapon. Get rich and you can get away with anything in modern world. Europe has no issue in selling us weapons only question is do you have the money to buy them

 

[blain2]

They already do. It's you who don't buy them. The only problem could be USA and if you had money like UAE or Saudi Arabia yes they would sell you every weapon. Get rich and you can get away with anything in modern world. Europe has no issue in selling us weapons only question is do you have the money to buy them

Get rich starts with the people paying their due share of taxes. We don't even have the fundamentals right. The salaried tabqa is dying under the weight of taxation while the rest of the nation free-loads and complains about lack of infrastructure and facilities. Resilient and comical is how I would term the situation.

 

[BHarwana]

Although I am not a big fan of importing defense-related products as you can never become self-reliant and will always be at the mercy of the seller. However, not everyone can produce a state of the art equipment for example 5th Generation Fighter jets.

As you may know, India has received its 5 Rafales, and that is because they have deep pockets. Yes, their poverty rate is also extremely high but as a big country, they do have big pockets. What if we had money, would France sell us their Rafales or Itlay would sell us their Astras?

We all know Lockheed Martin is looking for customers to keep their F-16 line going what if we had money would they be able to sell us they "F-21" with the same terms they were offering to India?

What do you guys think? One thing is for certain, in international relations, it is all about interest and money dictates those interests.

T129 is a paid project are you able to buy them?

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Answer is very much yes...

 

[Pandora]

These are all self-manufactured constraints making rounds in Pakistan. Nobody asks about our nuclear program when selling weapons. If we are seen as a spender with deep pockets, they will sell. Its simple business.

The issue is that most western countries look at this as a zero sum game. Can Pakistan pay and be considered a purchaser of big ticket items? If not then why hurt their chances of selling to India (Indians make noise over every single major weapons purchase by Pakistan, Pakistan does not. No protestation from us because we have no economic leverage!)

As such, given the dismal fiscal situation, its just better for us to use Chinese technology and train hard on its employment till our finances allow us to go into joint-initiatives with others besides China, Turkey and Ukraine. All is not bad with the tech on hand. It is incrementally getting better and in many areas, there is technical parity with Western systems.

As such, despite the above situation, I still believe the right answer is not to buy big ticket items off the shelf. We have to struggle and even make-do with toys that are not shiny. It builds character and will make Pakistani security more self-reliant in the long run.

There is no doubt that deep pockets play a vital role. On the other hand US and West bickering about our nukes has gone down but it is not completely over. Our nuclear program and us being a Muslim majority country really jitters some nerves in the west.

I myself would prefer a locally manufactured product over imported off the shelf item any other day. I was very disappointed by off shelf VT4 and SH1 procurement which will push our local industry back at least a decade. I hope better sense prevails and we dont undo a decades worth of indigenization effort.

 

[SQ8]

When Pakistan does have the money it buys centrifuge bulbs that cost $.50 for $200 and someone charges a delivery fees for $299.50 or buys a $300000 test equipment it had no use for but the phupizad bhai of someone in charge with the title kernal got the local agent commission for it and now it rots in H-sector.

So really it makes no difference.

 

[My-Analogous]

Absolutely and my view is exactly the opposite of my fellow member above ;-). Pakistan can buy more F-16s, AH-1Zs etc. if it has the money. This is a simple fact. Pakistan is under no sanctions regime. Pakistan has working ties with all of the EU countries and the United States. In 2005, when the order was placed for the F-16s, the US side was very open to larger numbers (with option to go to 36 for blk52s), however all of it comes down to money.
If the Saudis and Emeratis can buy all the gear they need from the West while waging a war in Yemen, why could Pakistan not do so as long as it had the funds?

We need to stop making victims out of ourselves. The world is not out to get Pakistan. We need to have the fiscal space to make such purchases. All of the defense industry in the West needs this money and they have the clout to push these deals through their governments.

Please ask Saudi's and Emeriti's to buy F35. US refuse to sell them if you don't know the facts. US don't like any force against Israel to stand with no matter how much tons of money you have period.