Identity crisis - how do we fix this?

[Dalai Lama]

What is with PDF's obsession with food related threads though......first there was the great Biryani Battle of 2018, now this.
Maybe food just has a clear cut way of differentiating people.

Link to thread please. Lol.

 

[Corona]

Link to thread please. Lol.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...-kick-starts-a-storm-on-twitter.543277/page-6

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Anyway, we are losing focus. The thread is about what we as Pakistanis can do about the identity crisis of our expatriate businesses overseas.

How can we create an international brand for Pakistan.

This is not about what Indians think about Pakistan’s identity or lack thereof in their thinking.

 

[Kambojaric]

Basically, Pakistan is Pakistan, a Islamic nation around Indus river. Indus river and Islam should be your part of identity, not being "NOT India".

Completely agree. I am a realist and believe Islam cannot be disassoicated with Pakistani identity. However it is not the only thing that defines us and realizing that is important. I always see Pakistan as a country very similar to Spain. Multicultural, multi-linguistic nation, born out of religious strife and for its initial period using religion as the sole identity marker, before Spanish identity became strong enough to gradually coexist with Catholicism (and for many Spaniards completely replace). Heck, even the first Spanish monarchs were referred to as the "los reyes catolicos" (the Catholic monarchs). Ultimately a shared history, folktales, geography and increasingly even cuisine are also large identity markers which will gradually shape Pakistani identity. The onus is on the state to reinforce this identity, rather than relying solely on religion. This will reduce Pakistani inferiority complexes viz a viz Middle Eastern/Arab Muslims and increase self-respect.

As for the "not India" part, all neighbors around the globe have things in common. However because India is so huge it is bizzare for us when we are said to be the "same" as a Tamil or an Assamese. Since India is much more than an Indian Punjabi or an Indian Kashmiri this is why the "Not India" mindset is prevalent amongst Pakistanis.

 

[Kaniska]

Can any one guide us about what are distinct Pakistani food that i can eat which is not available in Indian restaurant....

As of now i know lahori chicken and other chicken curry from Lahore based food items are good in taste and somewhat distinct in nature than Indian ones....

 

[Kambojaric]

Here goes my rant and What I wish I could do for Pakistan. What Pakistan need is secular ultra nationalism based solely on Pakistaniyat because religion( a twisted version of Islam spread by a certain brand of Mullahs) and the establishment has played a negative role in Pakistan's society. Pakistanis still look up-to Arabs like a bunch of slaves because they share the same religion with Arabs but on the other hand large portion of scum class in Pakistan are obsessed with Indian movies. Talk about identity crisis.

Secularism is not a realistic goal for a country like Pakistan, especially given the current mindset of the masses. Anybody advocating secularism stands no real chance in the polls. At most religious moderation can be demanded but even that is playing on thin ice. Otherwise state enforced secularism could be applied in a hypothetical scenario, but as the example of the Middle East shows more often than not the consequences of this are terrible. I am thinking specifically of the emergence of the various Al Qaeda factions in Arab countries like Egypt and Algeria which were or are under strong man, usually socialist leaning dictators. Islamists are forced underground in such scenarious eventually radicalizing them more and more till they become complete lunatics.

It's difficult for Pakistan to have an identity other than Islam when Islam was the plinth on which its founding father asked for and created it.

It's as they say. Careful what you ask for. Coz you might actually get it.

Indians all belong to one civilization. Hindu.

Pakistanis are 60% Hindu, 40% Zoroastrian. And besides trade, waxing and waning political influence, and the grey cultural area common between population groups, with some genetic mingling, there is no commonality at all.

It's no coincidence that Afghanistan, KP and Balochistan (both the Pakistani and Iranian bits) are in constant turmoil.

That's the fate of buffer states.

Cheers, Doc

There are examples of religous states gradually coming to terms with hyper religiousity and normalizing. I have already given the example of Spain which after witnessing the horrors of the inquisition gradually normalized and calmed down, with religion becoming one of the many factors which define Spanish identity today.

 

[padamchen]

Completely agree. I am a realist and believe Islam cannot be disassoicated with Pakistani identity. However it is not the only thing that defines us and realizing that is important. I always see Pakistan as a country very similar to Spain. Multicultural, multi-linguistic nation, born out of religious strife and for its initial period using religion as the sole identity marker, before Spanish identity became strong enough to gradually coexist with Catholicism (and for many Spaniards completely replace). Heck, even the first Spanish monarchs were referred to as the "los reyes catolicos" (the Catholic monarchs). Ultimately a shared history, folktales, geography and increasingly even cuisine are also large identity markers which will gradually shape Pakistani identity. The onus is on the state to reinforce this identity, rather than relying solely on religion. This will reduce Pakistani inferiority complexes viz a viz Middle Eastern/Arab Muslims and increase self-respect.

As for the "not India" part, all neighbors around the globe have things in common. However because India is so huge it is bizzare for us when we are said to be the "same" as a Tamil or an Assamese. Since India is much more than an Indian Punjabi or an Indian Kashmiri this is why the "Not India" mindset is prevalent amongst Pakistanis.

The second part of your post actually explains the difference in thinking of Pakistanis vis a vis Indians.

Islam is said to have no place for color or race or nation. Yet that remains the plinth of your argument against your oneness with the rest of India. While ironically, old (once) Aryan faiths like Hinduism are extremely anal about race and bloodlines and in fact wired into their DNA, but we see the cultural geographical historical oneness of the Indian subcontinent and it's peoples who together have formed what the world knows as the Indian (Hindu) civilization as our identity as one people, politically in our modern avatar.

It is why an Indian Gujarati and an Indian Manipuri feel Indian kinship first, that goes beyond their ttheplas and momos, or their looks.

Thanks for your extremely illuminating post.

Cheers, Doc

 

[MultaniGuy]

I thought this thread was about Pakistan.

BTW FYI I am not an Indian national.
@WebMaster see? Again the Same confusion. Better fix my flag.


Hahahahahaha!

@Indus Pakistan see what I meant?


I believe it will be hard to divorce Pakistani nationalism from Islam. That said if Ireland can be catholic and Irish why not Pakistan be Islamic and Pakistani.

Your point is...?

We Pakistanis have nothing in common with you Indians.

Now shoo.

 

[Shamsher1990]

Your point is...?

We Pakistanis have nothing in common with you Indians.

Now shoo.

Miyan, you can keep on repeating this and it will not change reality. People will still confuse Pakistani for north Indians.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Islam is as much a part of our identity as anything else. I will give an example of a civilization which mirrors Pakistan in a similar way as far as identity goes.

Turkey. Although Turks have for most of their history been pagans, Islam gave them new life and a new destiny. Islam reinvigorated their culture and civilization. Turkey became a vast empire ruling over numerous people of diverse religions, but always had the strength of an identity which was both pre-Islamic and Islamic. Turkey also went through calamities and lost its vast empire, becoming only Anatolia today. Turkish identity went through numerous changes as a nation state, some governments promoting pre-Islamic history, and some promoting its Islamic legacy. Today, being a Turk is as much about religion as it is about race.

Pakistan has this exact same relationship with the Dilli Sultanat and Mughal empire. The battle for Pakistani identity is finally reaching an equilibrium. That is an Islamic state which is also proud of its Pre-Islamic history (IVC and nomads.)

Miyan, you can keep on repeating this and it will not change reality. People will still confuse Pakistani for north Indians.

We have nothing in common with you. He’s right. No one confuses Sikhs for Muslims.

 

[Shamsher1990]

We have nothing in common with you. He’s right. No one confuses Sikhs for Muslims.

I see it happening daily. Day in day out. People confuse Punjabis from India for Pakistani and vice versa. But tell me, why is "Nothing common with India" so important for you?

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

I see it happening daily. Day in day out. People confuse Punjabis from India for Pakistani and vice versa. But tell me, why is "Nothing common with India" so important for you?

This is your wish and nothing more.

 

[lastofthepatriots]

I see it happening daily. Day in day out. People confuse Punjabis from India for Pakistani and vice versa. But tell me, why is "Nothing common with India" so important for you?

Not really. Sikhs get confused for being Arabs then are targeted by racists.

 

[PashtunBradar]

Not really. Sikhs get confused for being Arabs then are targeted by racists.

Sikhs prefer to be mistaken for Arab than to be seen as Indian.

 

[Kambojaric]

The second part of your post actually explains the difference in thinking of Pakistanis vis a vis Indians.

Islam is said to have no place for color or race or nation. Yet that remains the plinth of your argument against your oneness with the rest of India. While ironically, old (once) Aryan faiths like Hinduism are extremely anal about race and bloodlines and in fact wired into their DNA, but we see the cultural geographical historical oneness of the Indian subcontinent and it's peoples who together have formed what the world knows as the Indian (Hindu) civilization as our identity as one people, politically in our modern avatar.

It is why an Indian Gujarati and an Indian Manipuri feel Indian kinship first, that goes beyond their ttheplas and momos, or their looks.

Thanks for your extremely illuminating post.

Cheers, Doc

It is important to mention here though that "India" becoming one political entity today is a consequence of British imperialism. An Indian Gujarati and Manipuri prior to colonialism would feel as much kinship as a Pakistani and a Tajik would today. Some level of historical contacts and relative geographic proximity plus a common religion. Not enough to result in domestic organic movements to unite said people groups. Rather it takes an outside force (in this case the British) to unite such disparate regions and enforce their commonalities on them.

Having said that yes today India is increasingly tilting towards a "civilizational" outlook, as that is the only way it can realistically in the long run unify such disparate groups as Tamils, Kashmiris and Manipuris. But I digress now since the thread focuses on Pakistani identity.