Idea of India wasn’t demolished at Ayodhya. That happened in our ‘liberal’ homes

[Andhadhun]

Pleasing the white masters is your sole purpose in life, right?

Islam challenges the world with its unique message. Muslims don’t bow before governments, Kings, idols, celebrities. This makes them unique and the white masters don’t like that. Your people OTOH is known for its submissive behavior. Latter one is liked by the white people you worship. The West is not threatened by Hindus because they see in you another submissive superstitious paganism, Islam OTOH has a history of fighting the West. You don’t know history right?

This is also the reason why a few Muslims and later Brits could rule over you so easily and for so longs

So basically a wild animal who cannot live in society is your ideal

Spare me the lecture. You better have this discussion with zakir naik.

 

[Iltutmish]

Yeah, following the rules of country is being submissive. Ok.

If your argument is „but the white people like us more than you!!!“ then I call that a very submissive inferiority complex ridden behavior. Ok? And Indians and South East Asians are known for their submissiveness here in the West. Following the rules and licking the boots of the country are two different things.

Yeah, Pakistan, Afghanistan, ME, etc were never conquered by other powers. Ok again.

In the last 1000 years a religious minority ruled over the subcontinent. Why was that possible? Due to your submissiveness and low energy behavior. Tell me how long was Afghanistan ruled by non-Muslims or the ME?

So basically a wild animal who cannot live in society is your ideal

Go easy on me, white people don‘t like us :-(

 

[IsThisNameAvailable]

I am new user of PDF. An Indian & Hindu. I hope to contribute & learn.

Some "historian" here is trying to get into nitti gritties of whether or not there was a Temple below Babri? Whether it was something other than a Temple? Whether it existed when Babri was constructed? Whether it was demolished only for the purpose of building a Mosque or was it "natural selection" which pushed it into into the ruins? Blah Blah Blah....

This historian should first learn to become an average human who respects others' belief before trying to become anything else.

If anyone asks Christians to prove that Christ was born at such & such place or to Muslims to prove that Mohammed was born at such & such place, the Hindu inside me would tell that person that he/she should respect belief of Christians or Muslims and not question it by asking proof of everything.

Forget this historian, is there a Muslim here who can reciprocate and have similar thought about THAT PARTICULAR PLACE BEING THE BIRTH PLACE OF LORD RAM? Simply because the Hindu inside me believes so?

Anyone? Just one? A few would be great!! I am 100% sure it cannot be more than a FEW.

So, there is NOT EVEN ONE WHO WOULD RECIPROCATE.

It is not a surprise at all.

But then, it should also not be a surprise why one specific community/religion is infamous across the world.

 

[letsrock]

And Yet the MINORITY Hindus are model citizens the world over. From HK, to Singapore, to Dubai to UK to Canada to US. (with usual exceptions).

Not only they have lower percentage in crime and jail population, they are also the most law abiding and most prosperous of all communities.

So you are WRONG again.

Lol @ model minority. what does that really mean ? that indians, apart from individual exceptions, are seen as desirable socially as a group to hang around with ? nope. Are indians as a group seen desirable as partners - nope - internet is filled with agonized cries of indians in west that they cant get a partner from another race. Desirable as workers - yes. And there too because of non-discrimination laws they are paid on par with others. In places like gulf where discrimination is allowed indians are paid far lower for the same work.

 

[IsThisNameAvailable]

Lol @ model minority. what does that really mean ? that indians, apart from individual exceptions, are seen as desirable socially as a group to hang around with ? nope. Are indians as a group seen desirable as partners - nope - internet is filled with agonized cries of indians in west that they cant get a partner from another race. Desirable as workers - yes. And there too because of non-discrimination laws they are paid on par with others. In places like gulf where discrimination is allowed indians are paid far lower for the same work.

Please feel free to make any definition of 'model minority' that makes u feel better.

Of its many definitions, 'model minority' can also be an indicator of: Whether the community is known for its hard work & IQ? OR for crime & terrorism?

As they say, samajhdar ko ishara kafi.

 

[dray / Rain Man]

Idea of India wasn’t demolished at Ayodhya. That happened in our ‘liberal’ homes
The 1992 Babri Masjid demolition was no sudden act. All of our family conversations contributed to the pickaxes that hit the mosque in Ayodhya.
RAMA LAKSHMI 2 August, 2020 8:31 am IST

File photo | Kar sevaks at the demolition 'rehearsal' on 5 December 1992, a day before the Babri Masjid was razed | Praveen Jain

If Ram is the presiding deity of Ayodhya, then its political god is Lal Krishna Advani. Even though Prime Minister Narendra Modi, Home Minister Amit Shah and Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister Yogi Adityanath are lining up for the bhoomi pujan on 5 August.

Actually, a lot of people can claim credit for bringing India to this penultimate step of bhoomi pujan before the grand Ram Mandir is built in Ayodhya — Advani, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, the Vishva Hindu Parishad, and the Congress. But, most importantly, Indian families.

Undoubtedly, L.K. Advani not only set the ball rolling but also introduced the new language of Hindutva pride in the early 1990s. He single-handedly dismantled the word ‘secularism’ from India’s aspirational pulpit, and gave it the adjective ‘pseudo’. In every stump speech from the rath, he spoke of the historical Hindu wound and made Babri Masjid a buzzword for hate in Indian living rooms.

But Indian family conversations should also be a big claimant for this credit. They kept chipping away at India’s founding ‘narrative template’. This is why scholars erred early on by locating the so-called ‘idea of India’ in saving the Babri Masjid. That idea wasn’t demolished at a religious site, it was taken apart brick by brick in our living rooms.

Re-doing history
Many in the Indian liberal commentariat have said that the demolition of the Babri Masjid was the biggest blow to Nehruvian ideals. But to invest an old dilapidated mosque with the burden of secularism and an ‘idea of India’ was never going to fly. First, a religious structure can’t be and shouldn’t be a site to preserve secularism. Second, and more importantly, many Hindus, over generations, had been taught to view the mosque as a site of historical humiliation. They acted as ‘mnemonic communities’ (thick-memory communities) self-identifying as wounded.

And that wound, reminded Arun Shourie, was strewn across India, not just Ayodhya. According to a book that he co-wrote — Hindu Temples: What Happened to Them — which was published much before the demolition in 1990, there are 2,000 mosques that stand on top of demolished temples. The red book listed each of these mosques with name, village and some photographs, and gave intellectual fodder to the Vishva Hindu Parishad’s campaign in the 1990s that said Hindus are ready to give up their claims over these 2,000 mosques if Muslims would give them the Ayodhya, Varanasi and Mathura sites.

I visited a handful of these 2,000 mosque sites back then but found no knowledge, folklore, collective memory, let alone wounds, about demolished temples among local villagers. People did not know or did not care or had just accepted what they had inherited by way of built heritage. Popular memory is constructed through deliberate acts of retelling, which were manifest in Ayodhya, Varanasi and Mathura, but not the 2,000 sites listed in Shourie’s book.

Here is another way collective memory is shaped. When I visited Ayodhya a few years after the mosque’s demolition, I saw street vendors selling little black-and-white flip-books with two dozen picture pages. When you flipped the pages fast, you could see in motion how the Babri Masjid was razed to the ground. The last flip-book I had seen in life was one that showed Kapil Dev’s bowling action in the early 1980s. The Babri flip-book was being sold alongside poster images of Ram, the warrior. There were also books extolling kar sevaks who helped bring the mosque down, sort of like a demolition hall-of-fame. This is how deliberate retelling works. It can keep both wounds and triumphalism alive.

Words to axes
The demolition, however, wasn’t the only, or first, or the last act of vandalism against the unique Indian pluralism that Indira Gandhi called a salad bowl. (Canadians say mosaic, Americans use melting pot to describe diversity). The salad bowl had been regularly chipped away long before 1992 — in deliberate family oral histories and conversations. In families, the idea of the Muslim as the eternal, unforgivable other was kept alive.

Many parents—even today—tell their children to marry anyone but a Muslim (or some version of that). My own father said this. The marigold flower was not allowed in family prayers because it was associated with Muslims. The flower even has a derogatory Tamil name that refers to it as a Turkish flower. The simple act of banishing a flower keeps the popular memory of Muslim invasion alive. In Tamil and Kannada families, you refer to Muslims not as Muslims but as Turks for the same reason. My father routinely talked about how Muslim neighbourhoods in Madurai were growing (‘from ten houses at the corner to the entire street now’), and how Muslim women no longer wore saris like they did in his generation but had moved on to black burqas.

Casual prejudiced observations and references like these are routinely made in many Hindu families about Muslims (to emphasise what Ashutosh Varshney called their ‘everlasting disloyalty’), Christians (over religious conversions) and Dalits (over hygiene). It works the other way too. Many Muslim families also warn their children against marrying a non-Muslim. A converted Pentecostal relative of mine once said to me ‘others won’t be saved’.

The 1992 demolition was no sudden act. All of our family conversations contributed to the pickaxes that hit the mosque in Ayodhya. It is easier to blame politicians for religious bigotry or go to Jantar Mantar with ‘Not In My Name’ placards, but more difficult to look in the mirror and speak up in our families.

There will be visible triumphalism in the bhoomi pujan event this week. First, history was undone and now it will be ‘corrected’. Liberal intelligentsia will mourn and blame politicians and courts. But they will choose to be oblivious to how public history and social memory is constructed. History isn’t just the sum of built heritage structures. It is also made up of intangible collective memories — the stuff that is not allowed to be ‘disremembered’.

A wiser approach for liberals would be to start investing their energies in family oral histories and conversations instead.

https://theprint.in/opinion/idea-of-india-wasnt-demolished-at-ayodhya-but-our-liberal-homes/472935/

"No human being is born Islamophobic, but knowledge and experience make them Islamophobic"

- My original quote, freshly delivered, no copyright.

 

[Iltutmish]

"No human being is born Islamophobic, but knowledge and experience make them Islamophobic"

- My original quote, freshly delivered, no copyright.

Spoken like a real submissive idol worshipper. No human being is born Anti bobs n vagene paganism but knowledge and experience made them anti bobs n vagene paganism.

Bobs n Vagene Paganism is my nelogism, feel free to use it all over the world.

 

[jamahir]

"No human being is born Islamophobic, but knowledge and experience make them Islamophobic"

- My original quote, freshly delivered, no copyright.

And what were those special moments of understandings that made you come to your realization ?

 

[Joe Shearer]

"No human being is born Islamophobic, but knowledge and experience make them Islamophobic"

- My original quote, freshly delivered, no copyright.

Congratulations.

I am sure it will do very at the box office, and must be selling well in the bookshops.

Have you already applied for a ticket, Sir? If so, could I aspire to the position of sycophant in chief? You so obviously stand in need of one.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Spoken like a real submissive idol worshipper. No human being is born Anti bobs n vagene paganism but knowledge and experience made them anti bobs n vagene paganism.

Bobs n Vagene Paganism is my nelogism, feel free to use it all over the world.

Please.

One sickening example at a time is enough.

Would it be possible for you to talk it over with your fellow aspirant to the human race, and come to a roster? That will give the rest of us some respite.

 

[dray / Rain Man]

When he was a teenager, one of the forbidden tweaked his testicles.

Pure surmise, in the fullest spirit of fictional authorship that he has lit up for us.

Worse.. my family members were murdered. Thank you.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Worse.. my family members were murdered. Thank you.

I deeply regret my unthinking remark.

 

[dray / Rain Man]

I deeply regret my unthinking remark.

Don't worry about it.. only 4 of them were murdered, not all.. rest they were kind enough to allow to escape.

Initially I thought it was necessary to cleanse the earth of infidels like us to create a 'land of pure'.. kind of important to save the humankind from sins like idol worship etc.

But later I was informed by the intellectuals that it was a necessary process of 'land reforms'.. and that's also undeniable considering that our families lost their ancestral homes and ended up in swamps as refugees.. so quite an effective land reform it was..

So you see.. it was kind of very important to kill us.. there is nothing to worry about it.. only bad thing about it was that they didn't (or couldn't) kill all of us, resulting in existence of evil Islamophobes like me on earth. I admit..

 

[Joe Shearer]

Don't worry about it.. only 4 of them were murdered, not all.. rest they were kind enough to allow to escape.

Initially I thought it was necessary to cleanse the earth of infidels like us to create a 'land of pure'.. kind of important to save the humankind from sins like idol worship etc.

But later I was informed by the intellectuals that it was a necessary process of 'land reforms'.. and that's also undeniable considering that our families lost their ancestral homes and ended up in swamps as refugees.. so quite an effective land reform it was..

So you see.. it was kind of very important to kill us.. there is nothing to worry about it.. only bad thing about it was that they didn't (or couldn't) kill all of us, resulting in existence of evil Islamophobes like me on earth. I admit..

That helped to assuage the guilt, helped like an additional hole in the head helps to breathe. It does not help in other ways, in, for instance, finding the rational arguments to persuade you that becoming Islamophobic is dangerous for you, for your family, and for society, just as much as denying crimes committed by both sides against the other is dangerous for those in denial.

You will find all the sorts you have described on PDF:the saviours of the earth from a falling away from tauheed, the reformers who saw an expropriation of artificially created land-owners in favour of those who actually worked on the land, the embittered victims who emerged from these ordeals. Does that discovery help to deal with the present situation and the increasingly toxic social environment?

 

[El Sidd]

So liberals destroyed secular India?

I thought liberals were lynched and silenced in India.