Idea of India wasn’t demolished at Ayodhya. That happened in our ‘liberal’ homes

[Andhadhun]

You didn't get my argument. I'm saying it should not be forced on the students.

Yes some students fail Maths even if it's compulsory. That's not the point.

Knowledge cannot be forced on anyone.

That is the point.

 

[Nilgiri]

Yep. But what I'm going towards is 'having control over India.'

Yeah. See above.

Yah so political control (that too by almost force alone which has several related words) is different to me than what a nation is. It is subjugation of a nation....it is the negative to positive unity.

This is exactly why the liberation happened in the end...so that an actual unity may be allowed to express itself.

Political control (for a final purpose of control), esp when by utter force only....means so little in the end in grand scheme of things.

The tighter you grip, the more will slip through your fingers...

We are innately free beings, we must have freedom. Unity must be formed after that and from that. This order is extremely important. Freedom is very much precondition to unity...and a nation. Without it there is simply no nation...it is an anti-nation, a colony is one example.

The better this is all shaped and formed in latest conception, the longer and better the nation exists in a current avatar.

 

[TheGreatMaratha]

Knowledge cannot be forced on anyone.

That is the point.

Maths is something which you absolutely need as it is used in even basic transactions. Forcing Maths is a must. Forcing religious studies is not.

 

[Andhadhun]

Maths is something which you absolutely need as it is used in even basic transactions. Forcing Maths is a must. Forcing religious studies is not.

Dharma too is something you absolutely need and is far more important than Math.

One can live without knowing math, but one cannot live without knowing about his own responsibilities and knowing how to manage his own mind.

 

[TheGreatMaratha]

Dharma too is something you absolutely need and is far more important than Math.

Agreed. But it's not like you'll only learn Dharma if you attend some classes related to it. And Dharma is not religion per se but basic duties/responsibilities. There should be a subject called Value Education even in secondary school.

One can live without knowing math, but one cannot live without knowing about his own responsibilities and knowing how to manage his own mind.

You can learn Hinduism from your parents as well. You can join some class/institute if you want to learn it. But you don't need it in schools.

 

[Nilgiri]

Filtering needs to be done for every religion.

I am again talking about the ordering. The order matters very much. If you filter first thing to something you have already set in your head....you are not going to get much truth.

Truth is distilled, not filtered....you need as large medium to work with as possible, rather than a few selective pre-filtered things that jive well with an existing purpose wrought by whatever other action.

This is precisely why Hinduism has a huge body of thought and philosophy in the first place...sometimes even perceived to be at odds with itself.

The great challenge and purpose for you is to find the truth from it....your mind must be as open as possible.

 

[Andhadhun]

Agreed. But it's not like you'll only learn Dharma if you attend some classes related to it. And Dharma is not religion per se but basic duties/responsibilities. There should be a subject called Value Education even in secondary school.

You can learn Hinduism from your parents as well. You can join some class/institute if you want to learn it. But you don't need it in schools.

LOL. If there was no need for Dharma to be taught, Sri Krishna would not have taken an Avatar

So no, Dharam Very much need to be taught. In fact it it so important that God himself came down to teach it.

Its shows the amount of "secular" social programming you have undergone to claim god wasted his time trying to teach "dharma" to Humans.

 

[TheGreatMaratha]

I am again talking about the ordering. The order matters very much. If you filter first thing to something you have already set in your head....you are not going to get much truth.

Truth is distilled, not filtered....you need as large medium to work with as possible, rather than a few selective pre-filtered things that jive well with an existing purpose wrought by whatever other action.

This is precisely why Hinduism has a huge body of thought and philosophy in the first place...sometimes even perceived to be at odds with itself.

The great challenge and purpose for you is to find the truth from it....your mind must be as open as possible.

But there could be things that might have fit in the past but don't necessarily fit in present times. That's where filtering comes into play. But yes, for beliefs that are acceptable but contradictory, no filtering needs to be done.

For example, within Sanatana Dharma there is monotheism, polytheism, atheism, agnosticism, Charvaka, etc. You don't need to filter here since you can freely practice all these things even in 21st century.

But in Nepal, I heard there is some festival where Hindus slaughter animals. That should be considered to ban as I don't like killing animals in the name of God. Of course, it's not up to me but a general consensus of people.

 

[TheGreatMaratha]

LOL. If there was no need for Dharma to be taught, Sri Krishna would not have taken an Avatar

So no, Dharam Very much need to be taught. In fact it it so important that God himself came down to teach it.

Its shows the amount of "secular" social programming you have undergone to claim god wasted his time trying to teach "dharma" to Humans.

You are confusing 'Dharma' with religious education. I clearly mentioned there should be a subject called Value Education/Social Work even in secondary school. If you want to learn Hinduism, you can take that as an optional subject, but frankly if you follow the rules of the country even if you don't belong to any religion, you are doing fine.

 

[ps3linux]

'Hind' came from 'Hindu'.

Let me explain.

The etymology is from the name of the river that flows through contemporary Pakistan, that is marked on the maps as Indus.

It was named 'Sindhu' by people living on the banks, a name that has been traced back to 'many waters', or 'vast waters', and that comes originally from an Indo-Iranian word. I read this nearly 30 years ago, and cannot give you a citation.

That name was transposed to 'Hindu' by the people of the Iranian plateau and its neighbouring hill country, that we now know as Afghanistan, who had an accent wherein many Indo-Aryan words were converted from sibilant to aspirate form; 's' became 'h'. So Saraswati became, in Afghanistan, Harahoti or Haraothi.

The Greeks who lived on the western fringe of the Achaemenid Empire, after Anatolia was conquered, and their Anatolian habitations came under Achaemenid rule, were inveterate travellers and merchants and soon found their way to these eastern parts, taking advantage of the Pax Persica that prevailed. They, too, had an accent; it tended to lose the aspirate altogether. The 'h' sound was lost. 'Hindu' thus became 'Indu', and a Greek termination was added to make it 'Indos'. Ironically, that name is retained today but there are many well-meaning and not too deeply knowledgeable gentlemen who object violently to the name India, the foreign name for our country since at least the time of Megasthenes, a Seleukid ambassador to the Mauryas at their capital in Pataliputra (currently in the Indian state of Bihar).

The word Hind was coined a few centuries later, by Arabs and Persians - it is not clear who said it first - as a name for the black men of the region of the Indus and parts east of that. 'Hind' and 'Hindu' meant 'black'; it later came to mean thief or generally socially avoidable character. It was later broadened to mean the country of the Indus valley and to the east. That is how we got 'Hind' and 'Hindu'.

I was unable to conclusively establish what I mentioned earlier, but the response I gave to the other gentleman was that despite inconclusive Etymology of the words people of this area by and large had almost the same religious practices, rituals and more or less followed the same honor code.

This depends how you define a nation in first place. No taking away anything from what the Mughals achieved.....but before them on the macroscale....final tier political expressions were evidenced in Maurya and Gupta times....and something more deeper (as to the mortar and brick of the culture and philosophy that exerts itself into a nation) was evidenced in things like the upanishads, Buddhism and Adi Shankara.

This is a far greater study that will occupy several lifetimes to do well.

I meant about the contribution of Muslim rulers as sarcasm, I am not a fan of any of them they achieved nothing except uniting a fragmented hindu community as one group, except re-introduction of slavery, homosexuality was promoted to an extent that eventually produced garbage like that of Mir and Ghalib. They were at best eccentrics or revelers most of them lacked vision, what is Taj Mahal? what is Hiran Minar or for that matter any monument?

How many colleges/universities for modern education were there when British came?

What people conveniently forget to mention East India company was allowed to settle in India by none other than the fabled Aurangzeb who could not find a single doctor to treat his sick daughter, who was treated by a british doctor. The development/hygiene in India at that time was written in detail by a french doctor who visited india during Aurangzeb era, read the translation in UK.

According to his accounts the capital delhi was nothing more than a population divided between palaces and slums. Open sewerage/ drains. Rampant corruption by Govt Servants who were and still conveniently called "Shahi Noukar"

I'll come to the parts where I need to pick up the discussion again that is Islamophobia in India only 50 years old? or is there a history? What we Pakistanis have learned from our disturbed past (Zia and post Zia era), and few other things.

Unfortunately, being a finance guy with strong scientific background I can look into matters with absolute impartiality and come up with analysis but that does seem to ruffle many feathers, that is why I have developed this habit of conveniently ignoring discussions/topics/people where sub 70 IQ level is required I was not blessed with such wonderful figures.

People do not actually study the whole of "Hinduism" at the depth and clarity it requires. Rather they filter what is needed and what seems convenient.

This is the case with every religion, unfortunately. With deliberate effort religious community has throughout entire human history made the language of scriptures rare and out of reach of common man. As I say what the religious people tend to communicate from religious scripture to a common man is not translation/word for word but interpretation and strangely it varies from interpreter to interpreter.

 

[Andhadhun]

You are confusing 'Dharma' with religious education. I clearly mentioned there should be a subject called Value Education/Social Work even in secondary school. If you want to learn Hinduism, you can take that as an optional subject, but frankly if you follow the rules of the country even if you don't belong to any religion, you are doing fine.

LOL... there is no "religious education" in Hinduism except Dharma.

Then there are practices that assist in your Karma like Meditation, kriya, tantra or ayudha.

Sanskrit is the root / Link language that ties in all this together.

Which out of this should not be taught ?

Why do you insist that the world "Dharma" be SCRUBBED OUT and be replaced with "value education / social work" ? ? ? This very MALICE is the root rot in "secularism".

Men does not live by Law alone, there are social norms, social customs, social practices, and cultural sensitives all of which lie OUTSIDE the Law.

ALL of which need to be taught. If not in school, then where ? Its time to grow beyond the "maculay" system of education and bring back the Indian education system that was perfected for centuries.

 

[TheGreatMaratha]

Why do you insist that the world "Dharma" be SCRUBBED OUT and be replaced with "value education / social work" ? ? ? This very MALICE is the root rot in "secularism".

I said Dharma is Value Education. What's wrong in that? Just an English translation of it. I'm not demeaning the Dharma of Hindu scriptures in any way. Schools can replace the name of the subject 'Value Education' with 'Dharma' but there are people from all religions studying in our schools. They won't take it kindly even though the essence of the subject would remain the same.

ALL of which need to be taught. If not in school, then where ? Its time to grow beyond the "maculay" system of education and bring back the Indian education system that was perfected for centuries.

You mean the Gurukul system? A detailed study on whether it is suitable in present times needs to be carried out. You can't remain stuck in the past.

 

[Iltutmish]

And Yet the MINORITY Hindus are model citizens the world over. From HK, to Singapore, to Dubai to UK to Canada to US. (with usual exceptions).

Pleasing the white masters is your sole purpose in life, right?

Islam challenges the world with its unique message. Muslims don’t bow before governments, Kings, idols, celebrities. This makes them unique and the white masters don’t like that. Your people OTOH is known for its submissive behavior. Latter one is liked by the white people you worship. The West is not threatened by Hindus because they see in you another submissive superstitious paganism, Islam OTOH has a history of fighting the West. You don’t know history right?

This is also the reason why a few Muslims and later Brits could rule over you so easily and for so longs

 

[TheGreatMaratha]

Islam challenges the world with its unique message. Muslims don’t bow before governments, Kings, idols, celebrities. This makes them unique and the white masters don’t like that. Your people OTOH is known for its submissive behavior. Latter one is liked by the white people you worship. The West is not threatened by Hindus because they see in you another submissive superstitious paganism, Islam OTOH has a history of fighting the West. You don’t know history right?

Yeah, following the rules of country is being submissive. Ok.

This is also the reason why a few Muslims and later Brits could rule over you so easily and for so longs

Yeah, Pakistan, Afghanistan, ME, etc were never conquered by other powers. Ok again.

People nowadays say such stupid things that you can simply laugh on it rather than being triggered.(I assume you wanted to trigger Indians lol).

Anyway, my last reply to you on this thread. You can continue singing your songs on Indian submissive and you'll definitely find people who will like the tune of your song

PDF is enough for the day for me

 

[Andhadhun]

I said Dharma is Value Education. What's wrong in that? Just an English translation of it. I'm not demeaning the Dharma of Hindu scriptures in any way. Schools can replace the name of the subject 'Value Education' with 'Dharma' but there are people from all religions studying in our schools. They won't take it kindly even though the essence of the subject would remain the same.

You mean the Gurukul system? A detailed study on whether it is suitable in present times needs to be carried out. You can't remain stuck in the past.

What the hell is "value education" ? if you mean teaching "values" then its a waste of time, its far better to teach LAW to kids. What good has teaching "values" and "morality" every done to this world ? This useless christian concept has pretty much destroyed civilizations and the world. And you still refuse to learn.

Teaching Karma (action), Dharma (responsibilities and consequence of your action) and Rta (Nature of your universe) to children OTOH is teaching them how to live on this planet and not destroy everything for your own greed.

How does people from other religion matter if you are teaching universal concepts in school ? When will this cowardice and appeasement end ? Maybe you should try growing a spine before offering ideas.

How is accepting Gurukul system equivalent to being "stuck in the past" ? By that logic, using sushrut's plastic surgery and Ayurveda and Hindu numerals and mathematics is also being stuck in the past.