IAF's Jaguar Upgrade programme

[sancho]

Americans and Russians are not stupid to phase out their A-10s and Su-25s anytime soon. Infact the Russians are developing a brand new ground attack jet based on the Su-25. So much for phasing out "single role fighters".

That's not correct, the US wanted to replace the A10s with F35 but it don't have similar capabilities which makes it less useful and turned out to be waaay too costly for an replacement as well. Similarly, the Russians are already replacing ground attack fighters with Su 34, the only difference at their side is, that they still specialise their fighters more for certain roles although they are multi role capable as well (Su 34 and Pak Fa for A2A, Su 34 for A2G).
IAF is different in this regard as shown above, be it LCA, Rafale, MKI or FGFA, balanced multi role capabilities are prefered. Even the initial plans to develop AMCA as a ground attack fighter were rejected and now it's meant to have good A2A capabilities too. The Jag in IAF is as useful as the Bisons, good enough to support in a certain role and as a stop gap till all new fighters are inducted, but not to keep them in service for decades or waste too much money on them. The Jags at least don't have the quality issues like the Migs have, but that still isn't helpful.

 

[WAQAS119]

New methods of corruption are being devised everyday.

 

[IND151]

^^????????????

 

[Shatterpoint]

Is there any French company involved in upgrading the Indian military? Or is it only limited to you guys buying our Raffys? Also is India and France involved in cultural exchanges? Science and research?

Someone told me there are a lot of French stores opening in Mumbai etc, the big brand French fashion labels etc.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Is there any French company involved in upgrading the Indian military? Or is it only limited to you guys buying our Raffys? Also is India and France involved in cultural exchanges? Science and research?

Someone told me there are a lot of French stores opening in Mumbai etc, the big brand French fashion labels etc.

The French are very much on-board with upgrading India's armed forces-whether it be big capital purchases like Rafale, Scorpene, A330 MRTT, Mistral etc or upgrades of existing platforms like M2k and Mig-29. French component find themselves onto many Indian defence products such as MKI, IN MIG-29K, Jags etc There is an extensive working relationship between the two which looks to only be enhanced in the coming future.

 

[Shatterpoint]

Thanks it's good to know that India and France have a strong relationship, we can even help in upgrading your health services as well.

 

[manofwar]

Thanks it's good to know that India and France have a strong relationship, we can even help in upgrading your health services as well.

Actually our health services are world class, it's just political and private initiative to go into rural areas that is lacking...........
We have a $2 billion medical tourism industry , you know, the largest after US
And most of the tourists are european So , if you ever have a headache or something, you are welcome......

 

[Shatterpoint]

Sorry but I disagree with you on that, the health services for the poor and lower middle class is not very good, I have friends who have told me that they would never go to a public hospital or doctor in India. But yes if you have a lot of money you can afford to go to the private hospitals etc.

I have seen photos of Indian public hospitals and trust me hey are shocking, I have also seen the hospitals that foreign people or people with money in India use and they are world class, but the gulf is alarming.

 

[janon]

Actually our health services are world class, it's just political and private initiative to go into rural areas that is lacking...........
We have a $2 billion medical tourism industry , you know, the largest after US
And most of the tourists are european So , if you ever have a headache or something, you are welcome......

Thats like saying that our food security is world class because foreign tourists or rich people can dine in 5 star restaurants. The fact is that a huge bulk of our population does not have access to health services, whether in rural areas or urban. WHO ranks India at number 112 in health systems:

World Health Organization ranking of health systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(France happens to be number 1. He certainly doesn't need to come to India if he has a headache.)

 

[jha]

Thanks it's good to know that India and France have a strong relationship, we can even help in upgrading your health services as well.

France can really help us in Health services... We should look to co-operate in these areas also in addition to defence pacts.. Another area is Transportation especially in High Speed Railways...

 

[Su-11]

In not a single strike role, the Jaguars would offer IAF any advantage over the French and Russian fighters, no matter if it has a bit more thrust and payload. It's simply an old generation fighter concept, that makes it useful only as a reserve ground attack fighter and that a decade before it will be replaced.
Life extention is needed and good, but it should be a cost-effective upgrade only, meant for the newst versions while the older can be replaced by armed drones even before 2020 (more useful in CAS, longer range and endurance, cheaper to operate). The rest of the Jags should be replaced in future by AURA UCAV, which would be a game changer again in all these roles.

And old generation concept which is still used by the Russians and the Americans? Right! And after new engines, the jaguars can carry 6 tonnes of payload. How are you going to compensate this if you replace them now, given the Air-Ground sorties outnumber the Air-Air during the war? From where are you going to get the additional 120 6-tonne payload fighters from if you replace them now?
Reserve? Do we live in a separate continent isolated by 2 Oceans? As soon as the war starts, Pak/Chinese Armoured and other divisions will be racing to Indian strategic locations, you have to employ all your assets to stop them.
And where are you going to get these future armed drones from? How are you going to ensure the datalink to these armed drones is 100% secure? What is its payload? What is its cost? AURA..? let the our R&D morons complete LCA first.

That's not correct, the US wanted to replace the A10s with F35 but it don't have similar capabilities which makes it less useful and turned out to be waaay too costly for an replacement as well. Similarly, the Russians are already replacing ground attack fighters with Su 34, the only difference at their side is, that they still specialise their fighters more for certain roles although they are multi role capable as well (Su 34 and Pak Fa for A2A, Su 34 for A2G).
IAF is different in this regard as shown above, be it LCA, Rafale, MKI or FGFA, balanced multi role capabilities are prefered. Even the initial plans to develop AMCA as a ground attack fighter were rejected and now it's meant to have good A2A capabilities too. The Jag in IAF is as useful as the Bisons, good enough to support in a certain role and as a stop gap till all new fighters are inducted, but not to keep them in service for decades or waste too much money on them. The Jags at least don't have the quality issues like the Migs have, but that still isn't helpful.

Dude, Su-34 IS a ground attack fighter-bomber. It is not a multirole fighter. So much for phasing that out. And you totally ignored what I said about Russian production of Su-25 based Su-25TM/Su-39 which the russians received just recently. And no $hit they don't have similar capabilities, ofcourse they don't. And rightly, in the end it was decided to use the A-10s after all.

 

[sancho]

And after new engines, the jaguars can carry 6 tonnes of payload. How are you going to compensate this if you replace them now, given the Air-Ground sorties outnumber the Air-Air during the war? From where are you going to get the additional 120 6-tonne payload fighters from if you replace them now?

First of all, do you have any source for that claim of 6t payload? Secondly, it's payload is not the issue, but the lack of useful hardpoints and internal fuel capacity! Even IF it would have 6t payload, it carries the LDP on the centerline and 2 x fuel tanks on the inner wingstations. That leaves just 2 x hardpoints for LGBs => equal payload in strike config as LCA!

(overwing stations for AAMs missing on the pic)

LCA actually could carry a 3rd bomb on the centerline if needed and would be even superior in terms of A2G load and range.


However, more important is, that your logic is flawed and you simply can make a calculation to see that. Currently we have...

~250 x dedicated ground attack fighters
~150 x Mig 21s mainly used for A2A

These fighters will be replaced by multi role fighters that means, in future we will have...

...400 x fighters for ground attack AND A2A ! ! !

So there is nothing to compensate by phasing out single role, limited capable fighters, but we would even increase the capability in both roles. Especially in the ground attack role this offers a whole new level, as I showed in the comparison.
That's why I said, even if they are upgraded, they would not be used in any important strike attack anymore, since we fighters with more payload, more hardpoints, more range, better weapons and techs, or a lower RCS to do it, even without escorts. The Jags basically will be used if air superiority was achieved and IAF is providing less important strikes, when operating a Jag might be more cost-effective than a Rafale or MKI.

Dude, Su-34 IS a ground attack fighter-bomber. It is not a multirole fighter.

Wrong! Su 34 is the same Flanker base and is fully multi role capable as well, it has the same payload and same number of hardpoints as any Su 30, it's radar is a multi mode radar and it carries R73 and R77 for air combats as well. It is just the Flanker that is the most specialised for ground attack roles (side by side seating instead of tandem, more specialised avionics, better low speed handling with canards, better armor), that's why people confuse it as a ground attack fighter! IAF wanted a more balanced fighter that can do both roles in a single type, that's why they bought the Su 30 and customised it further, instead of going the same way as the Russians.

 

[Shatterpoint]

Thats like saying that our food security is world class because foreign tourists or rich people can dine in 5 star restaurants. The fact is that a huge bulk of our population does not have access to health services, whether in rural areas or urban. WHO ranks India at number 112 in health systems:

World Health Organization ranking of health systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(France happens to be number 1. He certainly doesn't need to come to India if he has a headache.)

Wow I can't believe that India is at 112 on that list? Like I said if people in India have money then yes the health care for them is good, but that is a very select few, I have seen photos of Indian clinics/hospitals and they are very bad, dirty etc. India has a long, long way to go in health care and basic sanitation infra.

 

[Su-11]

First of all, do you have any source for that claim of 6t payload? Secondly, it's payload is not the issue, but the lack of useful hardpoints and internal fuel capacity! Even IF it would have 6t payload, it carries the LDP on the centerline and 2 x fuel tanks on the inner wingstations. That leaves just 2 x hardpoints for LGBs => equal payload in strike config as LCA!

(overwing stations for AAMs missing on the pic)

LCA actually could carry a 3rd bomb on the centerline if needed and would be even superior in terms of A2G load and range.


However, more important is, that your logic is flawed and you simply can make a calculation to see that. Currently we have...

~250 x dedicated ground attack fighters
~150 x Mig 21s mainly used for A2A

These fighters will be replaced by multi role fighters that means, in future we will have...

...400 x fighters for ground attack AND A2A ! ! !

So there is nothing to compensate by phasing out single role, limited capable fighters, but we would even increase the capability in both roles. Especially in the ground attack role this offers a whole new level, as I showed in the comparison.
That's why I said, even if they are upgraded, they would not be used in any important strike attack anymore, since we fighters with more payload, more hardpoints, more range, better weapons and techs, or a lower RCS to do it, even without escorts. The Jags basically will be used if air superiority was achieved and IAF is providing less important strikes, when operating a Jag might be more cost-effective than a Rafale or MKI.

See the OP of this thread for 6 tonnes. That is one of Honeywell's selling points. And what is it with LGBs, as if only one kind of target will present itself in a war. What about anti-personnel cluster bombs, napalms, chemical and biological weapons if the war gets unconventional. You seriously think a war will be fought with dropping LGBs after deep penetration? Haven't you heard of disrupting logistics just behind front lines? How is Tejas going to match it with only 4 tonne payload? I'm glad you're not running the Air force.

Wrong! Su 34 is the same Flanker base and is fully multi role capable as well, it has the same payload and same number of hardpoints as any Su 30, it's radar is a multi mode radar and it carries R73 and R77 for air combats as well. It is just the Flanker that is the most specialised for ground attack roles (side by side seating instead of tandem, more specialised avionics, better low speed handling with canards, better armor), that's why people confuse it as a ground attack fighter! IAF wanted a more balanced fighter that can do both roles in a single type, that's why they bought the Su 30 and customised it further, instead of going the same way as the Russians.

You seem to know more than the developers & manufacturers themselves! Sukhoi is claiming it is a strike fighter bomber and you go and claim its multirole. It's Air-Air capabilities are purely defensive in nature to protect itself, or in other words it won't head out into battle seeking out other fighters to shoot down. It will not be employed in an Escort Role or Air-Air combat patrol role. The only sorties it is going to perform is Sea and Ground attack. It's radar B004 is mainly optimized for Ground attack, with its air detection for Large air targets only 90km, less than that of F-16 Block 52's radar! For crying out load, it even has a toilet for the pilots, similar to russian heavy bombers!

"In the long term, the Su-32 is expected to become the main strike asset of front-line aviation of the RF Air Forces, replacing all the Su-24 and Su-24M planes currently in service."
Sukhoi Company (JSC) - Airplanes - Military Aircraft - Su-32 - Historical background

The main reason why countries go for Fighter bombers is that it can be bought in more numbers since it is cheap. With 35 million dollars, you can buy about 3 Su-34s for the price of 1 Rafale. Compared to Air, the ground is filled with targets, all the time, since like I said before most of the war takes place on the ground, especially more so in the Indian context. Hence no amount of Ground attack fighters will go under-utilized unlike Air Superiority fighters whose job gets over as soon as local/total air superiority is achieved fighting the opponents airforce, whose number is always much much lesser than the opponent's Army and other ground targets. You can never run out of Ground targets, as there is always something to bomb on the ground, unlike in the Air.

 

[Backbencher]

I have a question
Which are the air forces that still uses jaguar , except ofcouse Iaf ?

Jaguar is awesome while driving but not by flying