IAF violated Pakistan air space| Forced to return

[Imran Khan]

sorry sir i never see warning i see that after post this because i serch facts.i am so sorry

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pheonix80 is going to take a break for a week and calm down and stop flaming and trolling.

Everyone else, stick to the topic please.

 

[Awesome]

sorry sir i never see warning i see that after post this because i serch facts.i am so sorry

We're counting upon our senior members to offer guidance to all the new comers and discussing issues on topic and not everything and anything, no holds bar royal rumble type of thing.

I hope everyone here helps us in this endeavor...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

We're counting upon our senior members to offer guidance to all the new comers and discussing issues on topic and not everything and anything, no holds bar royal rumble type of thing.

I hope everyone here helps us in this endeavor...

That goes for both Pakistani and Indian senior members.

If you participate on this forum you all have an equal responsibility in maintaining decorum and ensuring the discourse remains constructive and on topic.

Encouraging other off topic posters or feeding trolls by responding to them instead of reporting them and ignoring them only adds to the mess the moderators have to deal with.

 

[Bilsher007]

Asim bhai one of my post has been deleted but i want to know why ? . I was merely reacting to the indian post by phoenix80 who was badmouthing pakistan. I admit the language used in that particular post of mine was quite extreme but it was a matter of incitement from the post by phoenix80.

I want to make a suggestion that could you please let phoenix80 come back so we can discuss the issue with reduced temperature. I will do my utmost best to not inflame and i hope phoenix80 and vinod learn a lesson too.

 

[Awesome]

Look, Pakistan, India these are all political entities. You can criticize them day and night as long as it is related to the topic. Civility is strongly demanded of all posters here. You can be aggressive, but do not degrade the forum's quality... And to be honest your own quality as an individual too.

And... DO NOT attack each other.

The members of this forum are OFFLIMITS to any sort of personal attack. This forum is nationality blind and views everyone as an equal member.

 

[Rafael]

MODS kindly change the topic of this thread please.. its no more a "breaking news"

 

[Awesome]

I am responding in this post to phoenix80's FALSE CLAIMS oF INDIAN AIR FORCE SUPEIORITY IN 1971 WAR AND OTHER INDIANS FALSE PERCEPTION;

Air Loses of 1971 War
The tables below for Indian aircrafts loss are incomplete. Information on 1971 air war is hard to come by and is often inaccurate. It is a well known fact that Indians lost far more aircrafts as compared to Pakistan Air Force. Names of most of the Indian Indian pilots came from P. V. S. Jagan Mohan’s web site. I appologize to all those PAF pilots who certainly achieved air victory but their names are not listed below as no information was provided by Indians about their actual combat losses and there is no way for us to obtain names of Indian pilots involved. It is widely believed that Indians lost at least 100 aircrafts and several sources confirm this number.

Psyche of the Pakistan Air Force by Pushpinder Singh and Ravi Rikhye:
" The IAF suffered commensurately higher losses in the 1971 war because it mounted a very great number of attack sorties. To all causes and for all aircraft the losses totalled about 100, of which about 90 would have been combat types". (page 67)

General (Retd.) Chuck Yeager (USAF) , Book: Yeager, the Autobiography)

" The Pakistanis whipped their [Indians'] ***** in the sky, but it was the other way around in the ground war. The air war lasted two weeks and the Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made Indian jets and losing thirty-four airplanes of their own. I'm certain about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and counted the wrecks below. I counted wrecks on Pakistani soil, documented them by serial number, identified the components such as engines, rocket pods, and new equipment on newer planes like the Soviet SU-7 fighter-bomber and the MiG-21 J, their latest supersonic fighter. The Pakistani army would cart off these items for me, and when the war ended, it took two big American Air Force cargo lifters to carry all those parts back to the States for analysis by our intelligence division."

Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw, former Army chief told Karan Thapar in ``face-to-face'' programme on BBC Asked about setbacks during the 1971 war:

On the fifth day of the conflict he told Ms Gandhi that ``everything had gone wrong. The navy lost the khukri. The air force lost a lot of aircraft on the ground. My advances in Bangladesh were halted''. She looked at me and smiled and said you can't win everyday, Sam. And then she turned around and said anyway we will not tell anybody ... Let everybody know that nothing has happened''. Asked to what extent did he win in Bangladesh, Manekshaw said:``Pakistan army in East Pakistan fought very gallantly. But they had no chance. They were a 1,000 miles away from their base. And I had eight or nine months to make my preparations. I had a superiority of almost 50 to one...''. He said it was true that he had written a personal letter to Pakistani captain S.R. Malik for defending his garrison in Kamalpur in Bangladesh ``stoutly'' despite ``hard'' Indian attempts to capture it. ``We did not succeed until about the third attempt....'' The former chief said he had even recommended Captain Malik's name for a gallantry award to the Pakistani army chief.

PAF Air-Kills in East Pakistan
Date PAF Pilot IAF Pilot PAF plane Plane/Pilot fate
Dec 4 F/L Saeed S/L S.B.Samanta F-86 14th Squadron Hunter (37th Squadron)
Dec 4 F/L Shams-ul-Haq S/L V. Bhutani F-86 14th Squadron Su-7 (221 squadron)
Dec 4 F/L Saeed Afzal F/O S.G. Khonde F-86 14th Squadron Hunter (37th Squadron)
Dec 4 F/L Shams-ul-Haq S/L K.D. Mehra F-86 14th Squadron Hunter
Dec 4 F/L Dilawer F/L K. C. Lemontree F-86 14th Squadron Hunter, POW



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PAF Air-Kills in West Pakistan
Date PAF Pilot IAF Pilot PAF plane Plane/Squadron
Dec 04 F/L Naeem Atta F/L L.M.Sasoon and F/L R.M. Advani Mirage III Canberra (JBCU)
Dec 04 F/L Qazi Javed F/O Chati (POW) F-6 Hunter (A-479) (27 Squadron)
Dec 04 F/L Javed Latif F/L H.V. Singh F-6 Su-7 (222 Squadron)
Dec 04 F/L Salim Bag Mirza F/L K.P. Muralidharan F-86 Hunter (A-462) (20 Squadron)
Dec 04 F/L Mujahid F/O S. Tyagi F-86 Hunter (A-490) (27 Squadron)
Dec 05 F/L Safdar S/L J.M. Mistry Mirage III Hunter(A1014) (20 Squadron)
Dec 05 S/L S. Saad Hatmi F/L G.S. Rai (Killed) F-6 Hunter (A482) (27 Squadron)
Dec 05 F/L Qazi F/O K.L Malkani (Killed) F-6 Hunter (A488) (27 Squadron)
Dec 07 F/L Atiq Sufi / F/L Musharaf Mir S/L Jiwa Singh F-6 Su-7 (26 Squadron)
Dec 08 W/C Hashmi F/L R.G Kadam F-6 Su-7 (TACDE)
Dec 10 W/C Arif Iqbal L/C Ashok Roy (Pilot), Lt H S Sirohi (Obs), O Vijayan F-104 Alize (310 Squadron)
Dec 11 S/L Cecil Chaudhery F/L K.K. Mohan F-86 Su-7 (26 Squadron)
Dec 11 Unknown Pilot F/L R D Naithani (Pilot) F/L G Theophilus (Nav) F/L Manohar Purohit (Nav) Mirage III Canberra (5 Bomber Squadron)
Dec 11 W/C Arif Iqbal / S/L Amanullah S/L Mickey Jatar (Killed) F-104 HF-24 (while taking off from the runway) (10 Squadron)
Dec 14 F/L Salim Beg Mirza F/O N.S. Sekhon F-86 Gnat (18 Squadron)
Dec 14 S/L Salim Gauhar Capt P.K. Gaur F-86 Auster (660 Squadron)
Dec 17 F/L Maqsood Amir F/L Tejwant Singh F-86 Mig-21 (29 Squadron)



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PAF Air-Combat Losses in East Pakistan
Date PAF Pilot Pilot Fate Aircraft Involved
Nov 22 F/L Parvez Mehdi Qureshi POW Sabre vs. Gnat
Nov 22 F/O Khalil Ahmed POW Sabre vs. Gnat
Dec 04 W/C S M Ahmed Killed by Terrorists Sabre vs. Hunter
Dec 04 F/L Saeed Afzal Khan Killed by Terrorists Sabre vs. Hunter
Dec 04 F/O Sajjad Noor Pilot rescued Sabre vs. Hunter



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PAF Air Combat Losses in West Pakistan
Date PAF Pilot Aircraft / Pilot Fate Aircraft Involved
Dec 10 S/L Aslam Choudhry F-86 . Pilot killed in action. S/L R N Bharadwaj In Hunter.
Dec 12 W/C M E Middlecoat F-104. Pilot Killed in action. F/L B B Soni in Mig-21.
Dec 13 F/O N N A Baig F-86. Pilot Killed in action. S/L F J Mehta in Hunter
Dec 17 F/L Samad Ali Changezi F-104. Pilot Killed in action. F/L A K Dutta in Mig-21.
Total PAF losses in Air to Air Combat: 09
Total IAF losses in Air to Air Combat (at least): 22


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IAF losses due to Ground fire in East Pakistan
Date IAF Pilot Pilot Fate Aircraft involved
Dec 04 S/L S K Gupta Ejected Hunter
Dec 04 F/L A R Da Costa Killed Hunter
Dec 10 S/L R C Sachdeva Killed Hunter
Dec 13 S/L P.S.Gill Ejected Mig-21
Dec 15 F/O B R E Wilson(Pilot) Flt Lt R B Mehta (Nav) Killed Canberra
Unknown F/L Dixon 2 Killed Hunter



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IAF losses due to Ground fire in West Pakistan
Date IAF Pilot Pilot Fate Aircraft Involved
Dec 04 F/L M S Grewa POW Su-7
Dec 04 F/L P V Apte Killed HF-24
Dec 04 F/L J L Bhargava Unknown HF-24
Dec 05 F/L A V Pethia POW Mystere
Dec 05 S/L D S Jafa Unknown Su-7
Dec 05 F/L Harish Singhji Unknown Mig-21
Dec 05 F/L V V Tambey Unknown Su-7
Dec 05 F/L S K Goswami (Pilot) F/L S C Mahajan (Nav) Unknown Canberra
Dec 05 F/L S C Sandal (Pt) F/L K S Nanda (Nav) Unknown Canberra
Dec 06 F/O K C Kuruvilla Unknown Su-7
Dec 07 F/O H N D Mulla Feroze Unknown HF-24
Dec 08 S/L Denzil Keelor Unknown Mig-21
Dec 08 W/C B A Coelho Unknown Hunter
Dec 09 F/L N Shanker Unknown Su-7
Dec 09 S/L A V Kamat Unknown HF-24
Dec 10 S/L Jain Killed Hunter
Dec 10 F/L Parulkar Unknown Su-7
Dec 10 F/L S K Chibber Unknown Su-7
Dec 13 S/L J D Kumar Unknown Mystere
Dec 13 W/C H S Gill Unknown Mig-21
Dec 16 F/L T S Danadoss Unknown Su-7
unknown S/L Anukul Unknown Mystere
unknown F/L Das Unknown Mystere



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IAF Aircrafts Destroyed on Ground
1 Vampire on Dec 15 (Pakistan claimed far more Indian aircrafts destroyed on ground and this is confirmed by Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw, former Indian Army chief).
Date IAF Pilot Pilot Fate Aircraft Involved
Dec 06 F/L V K Wahi Unknown Su-7
Dec 07 F/O M M Singh Unknown Gnat
Dec 12 F/O P K Sahu Unknown Mig-21
Unknown unknown unknown Mig-21
Unknown unknown unknown Mi-4




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IAF Aircrafts Lost in accidents
Date IAF Pilot Pilot Fate Aircraft Involved
Dec 17 F/L J D'Souza , and Five Crew memebers. Killed Dakota
Unknown S/L Rao Ejected Mig-21
Dec 11 S/L K L Bajaj Killed Alloutte
Dec 11 F/L A B Dhavle Killed Mig-21



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PAF losses in East Pakistan Due to Enemy Ground Fire
None: Pakistan Air Force disabled 11 remaining F-86s and 2-3 T-33s by perforating aircraft engines with the gun fire and cutting electric wiring at several places to prevent them from falling into enemy hands after runway was cratered beyond repair.

PAF losses in West Pakistan Due to Enemy Ground Fire
Date PAF Pilot Pilot Fate Aircraft Involved
Dec 05 S/L Khusro,
S/L Peter Chisty Killed B-57
Dec 05 S/L Ishfaq Hameed,
F/L Zulfiqar Ahmed Killed B-57
Dec 05 F/L Javed Iqbal,
F/L G M Malik Killed B-57
Dec 06 S/L Amjad Hussain POW F-104
Dec 07 F/L Wajid Ali Khan POW F-6
Dec 08 F/L Fazal Elahi Killed F-86
Dec 12 F/L Ejazuddin Unknown F-6
Dec 17 F/O Shahid Raza Killed F-6



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PAF Aircrafts Destroyed on Gound
1 RB-57 Destroyed at Masroor on Dec 06.
5 Sabers destroyed at Murid on Dec 08.

PAF aircrafts lost to friendly fire or in accidents
Date PAF Pilot Pilot Fate Aircraft Involved
Dec 04 F/L Nayyar Iqbal Killed F-86
Dec 07 F/O Hamid Khawaja Unknown F-86
Dec 07 S/L Cecil Chaudhry Ejected F-86 (Friendly fire)
Dec 08 F/O Afzal Jamal Siddiqui Killed F-6 (Friendly fire)

Total PAF losses to all causes: 40 (including 13-14 aircrafts destroyed by the personnels of Pakistan Air Force in East Pakistan after runway was cratered beyond repair).

Take a break from the forum, B007. I feel like I'm pleading with the crowd here to stay on topic!

This thread is not about the 1971 war!

 

[Kharian_Beast]

Any updates on the incident? Is India still officially denying Pakistan contacted them at all? Have we gotten anywhere with this on our side of things officially or is it still being analyzed or toned down possibly even played out of the larger game?

 

[Rafael]

the media is blasting the stance of the govt all over and appreciating what the paf did..other than this...nothing special.

 

[z9-ec]

Geo news is reporting that Chairman Joint Chiefs is leaving for China on a 6 day visit and will meet senior defence officials during his stay.

 

[Rafael]

could that be about getting j-10s as early as possible..or just a ruotine visit????

 

[Neo]

Violation of Pakistan's air space by IAF, a negative development: analyst ​

Islamabad, Dec 14, IRNA

Pakistani political and defense analyst Prof Dr Hasan Askari Rizvi on Sunday termed the incident of violation of Pakistan's airspace by Indian Air Force (IAF) as a serious development and said that it could increase the tension between the two countries.

Speaking to IRNA he said that though both the countries have tried to defuse the tension but this kind of incident does not send a positive message.

Air Commodore Humayun Viqar Zephyr, spokesman for Pakistan Air Force (PAF), told the media that Indian planes intruded into Pakistan's airspace at two different areas, but left as soon as they were sighted PAF jets.

He said there was no cause for concern as the PAF was fully alive to the situation and capable of giving a befitting reply in case of a misadventure.

However, an Indian Air Force spokesman denied the allegation, saying 'there has not been any airspace violation'.

Hasan Askari Rizvi in response to a question said that this kind of act is a limited military pressure tactic and it doesn't mean that India wants to go for a war, however, he said that if this kind of incidents start happening with greater frequency the two countries could drift towards war.

Pakistan should go for a diplomatic channel in response to the incident and make sure that in future such incidents would not take place, he suggested.

Rizvi added that Pakistan Air Force is fully capable to defend its borders and can respond well to the intrusion of its air space.

The analyst was of the view that the western powers should use the diplomatic clout to defuse tension between Pakistan and India and advise the later to adopt a moderate diplomatic act.

Rizvi was a visiting professor of Pakistan Studies at Columbia University's School of International and Public Affairs (SIPA), and the Allama Iqbal Professor at Heidelberg University, Germany. Until 2001, he was a Professor of Political Science at Punjab University, Lahore, Pakistan.

Rizvi obtained his MA and PhD in Political Science and International Relations from the University of Pennsylvania, and an M.Phil in Politics from the University of Leeds.

 

[Sgt Automatic]

For all those anthusiasts who say that PAF should have shot down atleast one of the intruders. Its just not that simple.

First of all the intrusion was only 4 KMs, so even if the jets had stayed long enough for the PAF to intercept, as soon as the warning of an enemy lock on would have come on the IAF jets system, they would immidiatly conducted evasive manovers and or turned back.

And even if they were hit, they are so close to the border that they could easily crash in their own territory. And PAF would be facing serious consiquences from the world, plus this would esclate the already thin situation.

Also if any of you have heard the details, the way the intrusion was conducted, it was fairly low profile. Because on the radar it wasn't like there were two jets coming straight for the Indian/Pakistani border from deep within indian air space. The way it happened was, two jets conducting border patrol, veered of the waypoints and "accidently" violated the Pakistani airspace.

 

[Muradk]

Dear Sir, What is the use in kicking the IAF butt when pakistan lost half of your country. Your action is like a boxing match loser after losing by knockout but boasting of the punches he delivered. People will remember only about who won the match or war. After all, Pakistan does not deserve an air force if it cant give something back.

Son I was fighting IAF when your egg wasn't even in exsistance, check your records of our kill ratio and than talk to me about who deserves an Air Force.
Well you guys now know that IAF just passed 4 km and we had 30 plus planes in air In all four sectors. I think that is a pretty good response. I am 100% sure IAF will not do it again.