IAF tender for 126 fighters cleared....finallly!!!!!!!!!!!

[Neo]

Neo Rafale cannot beat a fighter equipped with AESA... but the french are coming and that too directly with GAN MODULED AESA 10x times the power of Current TR modules consuming 10x less energy!!!

Joey,

Excuse my ignorance but doesn't AESA loses its overall importance in a net centric warfare?
Rafale uses a state of the art PESA radar but can be equipped with a AESA if required.

 

[joey]

Joey I'm told that Russia is no longer willing to compromise on the OVT, it will have to come with Russian avionic suite and radar.
Are you sure about the Elta AESA?

The unit price also seems to be a problem, its much more expensive than the MKI.

Absolutely SURE, Will provide sources tomorrow...
Russian AESA is not yet developed fully, NIIP guys categorically said in AI we need to work with your scientist for the 1080 module AESA.

Avionics can be Russian but the electronics of avionics should be Indian, why do you think we will go for a different mission computer when we have a highly powerful one developed? its absurd and adds to maintenance issues!! and lifetime costs.

They have said we 'will integrate radar from Elta, India 'just' have to ask.

 

[joey]

Joey,

Excuse my ignorance but doesn't AESA loses its overall importance in a net centric warfare?
Rafale uses a state of the art PESA radar but can be equipped with a AESA if required.

Rafale uses slotted array radar, let me tell you something here what we are trying to achieve with MMR is in the level of Rafales slotted array radar....

no AESA does not loose importance over net centric warfare, what is net centriuc? LOOK FIRST, TRANSMIT DATA FAST AND FIRST KILL FIRST, radar does the job of looking first.

Gallium Nitride GAN doped TR modules is atleast 10x times powerful than Gallium Arsenide modules GaAs

Note how Northrop Grumann, the main AESA radar maker define generations of AESA radar.

http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/ASD/brochures/combat/AESA.pdf

1st gen --- Ultra reliable radar (1985)
2nd gen --- Advanced Tactical Fighter (1989)
3rd gen --- APG-77 (1996)
4th gen --- APG-80, APG-77(V)1, APG-81.

Expect thales stuff to be 3rd gen AESA or in between 3rd & 4th. Thales already has experience of AMSAR & DRAAMA 1 AESA. Right now they are going for DRAAMA 2 with GaAs and soon it will be DRAAMA 2 with GaN. They can catch up with NG radars if they get export customer for Rafale and both the french and importer are seriously interested in bridging the gap.

AESA's are being flight tested on Rafale & Typhoon. Of course EU doesn't have them operational on any fighter yet. But its not long before they get it. The gap isn't that huge.

UMS in France will make GaN modules available by 2010-12, check the link below.

http://ums.openkast.com/ums/corporate_information/technology_roadmap_page.php

With GaN T/R module,

* T/R Module power can potentially go up by 1 or 2 orders with wide bandgap GaN and SiC MMIC.

* An existing AESA's GaAs T/R modules can be replaced with GaN or SiC T/R modules having 10 times the power.

* Then you have either a 10 times improvement in search volume or a 78% increase in track range.

Source: Phased-Array and Radar Breakthroughs, Dr. Eli Brookner, Raytheon Co.

More benefits of GaN,

* High engergy band gap of GaN will help disadvantages GaAs face in areas like high supply currents, medium power per mm gate length, termal expense to prevent hot spots.

* GaN transistors can operate at 8 to 10 times the power densities of GaAs.

* Use of higher bias voltages, and optimised thermal behaviour.

* Because of material's high impedance one can have smaller input/output matching networks and related losses on the amplifier chip.

Source: Current Status of Airborne Active Phased Array (AESA) Radar
Systems and Future Trends, Hans Hommel, Heinz-Peter Feldle
EADS Deutschland GmbH

Other advantages of GaN,

* Increased input power level capability.
* Reception amplifier can face high power electromagnetic aggression due to power handling capability of GaN.

Source: T/R- Modules Technological and Technical Trends for Phased Array Antennas, Yves Mancuso, Patrick Gremillet, Philippe Lacomme, Thales Airborne Systems.

Thales already had a working software[earlier AESA with american T/R module], but they were waiting for an all french AESA before they optimize it so that it gives best possible performance for an AESA radar.

and it doesn't ends there thales already has real time all digital AESA electronic attack capability demonstrated through it EA pod development programme. They can add it to RBE-2 AESA soon.

http://www.thalesgroup.com/all/pdf/AEA.pdf

They have a techniques generator that works for the EA pod and instead of using the pod's AESA antenna they can use RBE-2's AESA antenna to transmit ECM/EA. Only limit will be imposed by bandwidth of RBE-2's T/R module. Since UMS is an equal JV between EADS and Thales, expect GaN to be available for Typhoon team too.

Thales AESDA brochure,
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fi...eur/presse/lbg07/defense/rafale/RBE2_AESA.pdf

Remember new generation array patch antennas can be pasted on bodies , iirc lca will have some patches of tr modules as well, k/ku BAND ONLY , again K/Ku band has been shown to be best band to transfer data by a american company recently, these are inherently LPI capable means non-jammable, and you cvan use them to jam others while doing other work, kinda like multiitasking.

 

[Neo]

Honestly I would hate that
5 years? more like 10 years atleast if they wants first get the J10's.

I bet you would!

By then MCA and PAKFA

Pak-Fa won't be available for another 15 years or so and PAF will counter it with the J-XX which should be ready in 15-18 years.
I'm sure we will be looking into the Rafale, Typhoon or maybe a Russian design besides the Chinese FC-20 to maintain status quo.
Financially we'll be able to afford it in considerable numbers in five years.

 

[Neo]

Ah...nice post mate, thanks for educating me!

 

[joey]

Malay since you are talking of RCS...





Neo I'm not too sure about PAF being able to afford rafale and typhoon in numbers, either way the day you will start inducting that we will move a step ahead, economies is what determines such even with J10 and jf17 PAF's asset is not net centriced and such other things. As we speak not even today you have crediblke BVR capability.

But again PAF's doctrine is to remain defensive

What is worrying me is funds for MCA, our designers are not naive the IITians are one of worlds best brains and has counted for worlds some of best defence projects, give them the money, OUR FKING GOVT DOES NOT SANCTIONS PROPER DEVELOPEMENT MONEY THESE IDIOTS WILL NEVER LEARN.

the same reason I envisage MRCA will come after 4-5 years, a useless wait for me, a time which will go in vain, so i wont wait for it but watch it.

 

[joey]

As the world speaks of AESA the other side moves on with 400billion $ budget,

Conformal radar arrays are now being prototyped
Aviation Week & Space Technology
06/25/2007, page 51

David A. Fulghum
El Segundo, Calif.

Radars could be mounted on football-field-size plastic sheets

Printed headline: Beyond Big

Conformal radar arrays that a year ago were only concepts are now being prototyped. Large apertures are being designed as skin to hug the complex curves of aircraft wings and fuselages.

A massive structure under construction by Raytheon will form one side of a three-football-field-long airship. About six million elements will make up the 6,000-sq.-meter antenna, says Mark Hauhe, a senior fellow working on advanced radar concept demonstrators.

This is the third generation of active electronically scanned array radar antennas. Small, flexible transmitter/receiver modules that were once the size of bricks and then 2 in. sq. tiles have now become components lithographed to the bottom of a lightweight, plastic-like material that can be molded with heat. Researchers here say they’re already working on fourth-generation arrays that could be pasted onto large structures in the air or on the ground.

Meanwhile, Raytheon engineers are exploring what they call the origami antenna approach because flexible materials are heated and bent into long creases that can run uninterrupted for 200 yd. or more. The electronics are interconnected with a photolithic process and the signal radiates out of the V-shaped structures. The folds are spaced across the antenna’s structure at distances to match the radar’s two wavelengths—UHF-band for large area coverage and X-band for defining targets.

The advantage of the huge aperture is that the larger the antenna, the smaller the objects it can pick out at long range. From 65,000 ft. the antenna could scan tens of thousands of square miles. With cueing from an unmanned sensor or aircraft, a conformal antenna this size could identify and track extremely slow, small targets. Raytheon officials won’t say what those targets are, but Pentagon and Homeland Defense planners say they are still looking for a reliable way to track humans at long range for both combat and border patrol operations.

Moreover, the big array can functionally be broken into several segments for various radar modes and to make the array tolerant to faults or breaks in the structure. Different size structure allows the radar to operate against varying environments and target sizes.

“You could be communicating [large radar files] in one direction, radar tracking in another and simultaneously conducting air-to-air or air-to-ground searches for additional targets,” Hauhe says. “You could take the bottom of the antenna, which gives you a thin fan beam. You can find and track something even if you don’t know its altitude. Then you focus your big antenna to find it.”

Raytheon scientists won’t discuss ranges or power output of the radar, but they suggest that one of these radars could look out over a large city like Los Angeles or Baghdad—even with only a portion of the array—and monitor the traffic at any street intersection in a large city.

“It would have to interrogate each return, but that’s the advantage of an active array [radar sensor],” Hauhe says. “You can do that instantaneously.” Each element operates on low power, but the conglomerate is a high-power array. But, “for slow targets, it’s not so much power as the waveforms you use to detect them.”

There also is the potential for some sophisticated future capabilities.

“An array this size would have potential for electronic attack,” Hauhe says. “The power aperture products could be very high. It would be good as a jammer or a communications link. You could use this to look at enemy communications; even if they are sending transmissions through a cable, it may be radiating because it’s not fully shielded. You can pick that up. You can tell who out there is emitting and who they are talking to. You’d cover a lot of radars in X-band and a lot of communications in UHF.”

Electronic warfare specialists outside Raytheon hint at even more spectacular uses for such arrays in the world of information operations.

“Think beyond range and power issues,” says a New England-based advanced concepts specialist with links to the Pentagon. “The concept of operations for some of these [newer] platforms can put them in close proximity to various networks that theoretically could be accessed early in the fight without the need for high-power transmit capability. The route of access is air [platform] to network, then network to network. If the network is wireless or wired does not matter anymore.”

The rough part of the project is that much of the work that hasn’t been done before and the operating environment is harsh.

For example, Washington-based space specialists that have worked for decades on protecting the electronics of spacecraft from radiation damage, say there is a growing concern about aircraft needing similar protection. With the reduction in the size of electronic components, they contend that avionics are increasingly vulnerable to upset or damage from bursts of high-power microwave energy or even the radiation from solar flares at 20,000-30,000 ft.

The airship’s proposed 65,000-ft. operating altitude was dictated by physics. To fly at that altitude, the airship has to be 300 yd. long and that’s about the practical size limit. Several other issues come with the altitude. Ultraviolet radiation causes materials to deteriorate, the cold reaches -65C. And in high winds, it could take up to 80% of the craft’s power just to stay stationary, leaving only 20% to run the radar.

“The solar cells provide a lot of the radar’s energy,” Hauhe says. “But the question is whether there is enough energy available in high winds to fully operate the radar. That’s the design window—to stay absolutely still at full power on the radar in minimum sunlight on battery power. That’s the edge of the envelope, but there are alternatives—drift with the wind or only turn on half the radar.”

So far, Raytheon specialists have built a first-generation version of the radar antenna with a 20-in. radius of curvature to prove the concept of a curved surface radiator with lots of transmitter/receiver modules attached to the back. That worked, so now they’re building the second-generation antenna. It has formed a beam that they were able to scan with. The spacing of the folds or lattice in the antennas is a little over 0.5 in. for X-band and a number of feet for UHF.

“The hard part is realizing that mechanically, [then] making all those interconnects, developing a manufacturing process that lets us create large sheets of this [antenna array],” Hauhe says. “In another year, we will have a significantly sized demonstrator.” And there’s more to come. “We think the next generation will be antennas that we can paste on a structure.”

 

[Neo]

From Pak media:

India invites bids for 126 fighter planes deal​

NEW DELHI: An Indian defence panel approved the invitation of bids to buy 126 fighter jets on Friday, marking a key step towards modernising the country’s ageing air force in one of the world’s biggest military aircraft deals in over a decade.

The Defence Acquisition Council headed by the defence minister gave its clearance for an early issue of the Request for Proposal (RFP), or invitation of bids, after a meeting in New Delhi, a Defence Ministry statement said. “The RFP would contain a selection model that would involve an exhaustive evaluation process,” it added.

“In view of the size and operational importance of the likely purchase, the criteria for selecting the final...contender from amongst some of the best combat aircraft offered by American, Russian and European companies, has been fine-tuned,” the statement said.

Bids for the deal, the value of which has been estimated by analysts at between $8 billion and $10 billion, would be invited “in the near future”, the statement added.

Last week, Defence Minister AK Antony said the RFP would go out within the next two months for a deal that has aroused the interest of some of the biggest military aircraft manufacturers around the world.

The Indian force, made up mostly of vintage Russian MiG jets, is getting depleted and could lose its edge over Pakistan if old planes are not replaced fast, defence analysts said. However, India’s defence deals are known to make slow progress and the first planes under the new deal may not arrive for another five years, they added. The deal has drawn the interest of the makers of the French Rafale fighter, the JAS-39 Gripen from Sweden’s Saab, Russia’s MiG-35, Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin’s F-16. The Eurofighter, made by a consortium of European aircraft firms, is also in the running.

The Defence Ministry statement said the bids would first be technically evaluated to ensure compliance with the Indian Air Force’s requirements, after which extensive field trials would be conducted to evaluate the performance of the jets.

Some defence analysts have said that geopolitical concerns could override technical issues, leading India to pick an American aircraft as New Delhi and Washington push their strategic ties and seal a new friendship. But the defence statement said the selection of the fighter would be “transparent and fair”. reuters

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\06\30\story_30-6-2007_pg7_40

 

[Lilo]

Guys do you know that Mig-29OVT developped serious engine problem in Paris Air Show? As we were watching the plane doing some incredible manoevres on Friday 22nd when a huge flame, bigger than the plane in size came out of the engine.
The mission was aborted and plane landed safely...it was grounded immediately and did not fly on Saturday or Sunday!

I'm surprised there's still no official report about what happened, just some talk on the French forum.
Anybody know what happened?

Neo what u have seen might be the "Dump and Burn" routine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_dumping

 

[Neo]

Then why was it grounded and taken off the flying routine on Saturday n Sunday?

 

[Adux]

By the time oufr babu's decide on something, PAF will have F-22 Raptors and Americans will have Luke Skywalker flying the X-Wing Star Fighter

 

[Adux]

This bird over here gets my vote, but mostly by the time we induct it, it might be obselete.

 

[Adux]

 

[Adux]

Its 126 Aircrafts and an option for further 84 if need be

 

[Skull-Buster]

i think the IAF will go for a mix of russian and non-russian aircrafts. maybe the mig-35 and f-18. or maybe eurofighters if they find their performance impressive in the upcoming excersise.