What's new

IAF tender for 126 fighters cleared....finallly!!!!!!!!!!!

Personally for me this MRCA thingi is getting beyond "normal" human understanding.
Another 5 year to sign the contract,add another 2 atleast to get the first aircraft. That makes it 7 years. That is 2014.

LCA will be IOC/FOC within what 2010/2011. And it already will have 20+ airframes in service.
The whole point of MRCA was "delay" of LCA in filling up Mig-21 depletion. Now by the time the "first" MRCA comes,the LCA would already be in full production and inducted much faster than MRCA. Plus you would be adding another logis burden of MRCA over the top of LCA logis.

JESUS !

Now shall we add some more confusion .. MCA and PAK-FA!
BY 2014 the PAK-FA would be almost ready for induction.Since India is suppose to be co-partner,they have to induct the PAK-FA.

That mean IAF would probably be the only airforce in the entire history of mankind..which would be inducting two different gen fighters at the same time!

IAF will be a aircraft museum and total waste of national resources.!
I just dont see the point of wasting money on a MRCA when the world is on the edge of induction 5th gen's.

what a mess. :(
 
.
The whole point of MRCA was "delay" of LCA in filling up Mig-21 depletion

Lil mistake there, Con.

MiG-21's(Light) will be replaced by the LCA's
MiG-23 all types and MiG-27(Strike Aircrafts) all types will be replaced by MRCA,

There is a good chance in 2 years the MRCA tests will be completed and production by 2011, while the first off -shelf aircrafts will be flying
 
.
Lil mistake there, Con.

MiG-21's(Light) will be replaced by the LCA's
MiG-23 all types and MiG-27(Strike Aircrafts) all types will be replaced by MRCA,

There is a good chance in 2 years the MRCA tests will be completed and production by 2011, while the first off -shelf aircrafts will be flying

Malay,
Actually I dont see any point in replacing Mig-23/Mig-27 with another heavy platform when you already have SU-30MKI in the production line. Why wait for a decade for replacement of another kind,when you a equivalent platform already in sights?

If you see the history of this MRCA thingi,IAF wanted a light single engined/Mirage for replacing the Mig-21's. As MIg-21 form the backbone,LCA was meant to fill the numbers.
It delayed and to prevent numbers slipping,they decided to order Mirages.

Now this love for Mirage got blow out in to a world wide aircraft manufacturer's war and IAF lost hold over what exactly it wanted out of Mig-21's replacement.

I seriously doubt that MRCA will be in place within 2011. If a western type,provided the contract is signed ASAP,we might ..perhaps.
If Mig-35... no way in the world. We will try to MKIsed the MIg-35. That means more delay.
 
.
Con,

The first Light weight situation when LCA wasnt going anywhere but by 2002 things changed for the LCA,since they confirmed on Light Cat and the problem shifted to 23/27 after that, 23/27 became the 126 MRCA (Medium), These are strike category we need 'em.

We are going for 50% offsets, then it should be EF or Rafale, EF is in my opinion the best bet here. And it will change the IAF into a very powerful Airforce, even more than MKI,

Lesser spoken about the MiG-35 the better, anyways we are upgrading the MIG-29's to M2 Standard and 2000's to 2005 stanard for a combined 1.6 Billion dollar worth contract-
 
.
It is absiolute mistake to think MRCa is because of delay in LCA, MRCA will replace mig 23/27 fleet.

MCA/Pakfa will replace mirage/mig29 fleet.
LCA replace mig 21 fleet.

Mixed vendor is a possibility but honestly i have eaten out my head over this , and it is not possible for us kids to decicde which ac is suited for iaf, once the ac is choosen conclusions can be drawn.
 
.
In the end there would be

230 Su-30MKI
60 Mirage 2005/9
60 MiG 29 M1
124 MRCA
Uknown LCA

Later... T-50
But by then the MiG 29's and Mirage 2005's should be out.

So hopefully, in 2 decades time it would be something like
T-50
Su-30MKI (forming what is now the middle of the fleet in terms of technology, what Mirage 2005 is now)
MRCA
LCA


IAF is certainly not helping itself by having so many different types of platforms. there should be not more than 3. One heavy weight, one medium, and one light weight. The most effective planning would follow on this. Apprently the IAF wants to go 'top heavy'.
 
. . .
Read here about MRCA saga...

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1990s/SR-MRCA.html

The Multi-Role Fleet (or Multi-Billions down the Ganga)

Air Marshal S Raghavendran


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The MRCA saga - and its origins


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the last couple of decades or a little more, there have been repeated expression of a need for a large number of Multi-role fighters for the IAF and, of course, the Navy has followed suit. In the Air force the requirement has been repeatedly pegged at 18 squadrons. There is nothing mystical about this number; it just represents half the number of the authorized squadron strength of the IAF.

My views on this controversial subject can be gleaned from an episode during my tenure as the Vice Chief of the Air Staff, in 1987. One morning a note, a very short one, came to me from the Deputy chief of the Air Staff. It simply stated that it had been assessed that the IAF needed 18 squadrons of multi-role aircraft and could I please send a note to him to say that it was operationally necessary. Very simple and to the point. Any simple operations man in my position would have jumped with joy for this possible gift of the much glamorized fighting machine – THE MULTI ROLE FIGHTER!!

This was the culminating point in my nearly six years in the Air Hq, three years as the ACAS (Ops) and again two and a half years as Vice Chief, with a one and a half year break in between as AOC in C of South Western Air command. I had seen how the Ops Branch had been emasculated by the Plans Branch and the Ministry of Defense. This was especially so where long term plans were made for the shape of the “Force” in the Air Force. The Ops Branch was more or less kept out of the process and brilliant plans made by some really brilliant Deputy Chiefs. These were called the Long Term Reequipment Plans or LTRE. The threat analysis, our needs to meet them, our capabilities etc wee all assessed by the Plans Branch without, as far as I knew, even from the Director of Intelligence, who worked under the VCAS.

When I was ACAS (Ops), I managed to get a peek at one of these plans because of my relationship with the then DCAS. Never got to see one when I was the VCAS!! I would have thought that for such a plan to be realistic, there was a need for target analyses, threat analyses, number of missions required with particular types of aircraft to ensure success, enemies’ present and future capabilities (especially possible help from ‘friends’ and surrogate partners), all of them the domain of the Ops Branch. Certainly, mention was made in general terms but such ‘general’ terms can only flow from the details given by the Ops Branch. Never!! The division amongst ground attack, air defense and multi-role aircraft was decided by the plans branch and it all depended on what the focus was on at that particular juncture.

So, when this note arrived, I was very peeved. It was like an uncle telling a child, “Listen Kid, I think I know what you need to fight that big bully in the school – a pair of nice strong boots to kick him in the shins”, whereas what was in the mind of the kid was a hefty baseball bat and a pair of brass knuckle dusters. There was absolutely no clue to the logic of the recommendation – just a two line note.

Fortunately, the quantum of the multi role aircraft that we needed was something that had exercised my mind for quite a while and I was in the process of writing a paper on the subject for the consideration of the CAS at a suitable forum like a presentation or some such thing. I had reasonable clear ideas as to how to go about it but had not got it down to paper. So, I got down to doing so. My logic worked on the following lines:

When do we need a preponderance of multi-role aircraft?

1. When we have more or less achieved air superiority and our ground forces are racing into enemy territory. Our focus is on providing maximum support to the ground forces and continuing to attack counter air and strategic targets. In such a case all our air defense aircraft would have to be capable of undertaking ground attack role.
2. When the enemy has a superior air force, in strength and capabilities and is likely to or is carrying out punishing raids on all our airfields, support facilities like radar and communication hubs and our own nationally valuable sites. In such a case, most if not all our ground attack fighters would need to be diverted to air defense and must be capable of undertaking such a role.

Can anyone visualize such scenarios in our area, whether we fight Pakistan or China?

Never.

So, what is the reality?

1. We have a finite number of fighter squadrons.
2. There is a bare minimum number of aircraft required at each of our airfields to meet any raids.
3. There is a minimum number of sorties per day to be provided for the support of the army. We do stipulate to the Army that for the first two days we will be busy with counter air and strategic targets but would meet their needs from then onwards. Their success, which is the ultimate success, depends on this.
4. A certain special strategic or deep penetration strike fleet needs to be available for counter air and strategic missions.
5. Air defense escorts have to be earmarked for the missions on counter air and strategic strikes on densely protected targets.
6. What is left is the force that can be multi-role, for switching as needed.
7. A multi-role aircraft is a hybrid compromise and a very expensive one at that.
8. An air defense aircraft must be agile, must have very sophisticated radar with beyond visual range and multiple targeting capabilities, capable of carrying a variety of air to air missiles (from BVR to close range) as well as very high capacity guns such as the Gatling gun etc. Helmet mounted sights and everything that has come in the market since I left the air force would be de rigueur.
9. On the other hand the strike aircraft would need long range, as many hard points as possible to carry munitions, high capacity internal guns and very sophisticated multiple navigation systems. Such an aircraft cannot be as agile as one wants in an air defense aircraft.
10. The compromise would give a less sophisticated radar and missile capability than a full fledged air defense aircraft and a far less lethality as a strike aircraft. At the same time, on most missions half the capability of the aircraft would be redundant. But this redundancy would make the air craft very expensive for each mission.
11. There is a school of thought that says that every strike aircraft should be capable of taking care of itself in air combat and what better than an air defense capability. The basic concept of this school is rooted in the days when the strike aircraft had only guns to defend themselves and even the air defense aircraft had only missiles that could not be launched if the launch aircraft was pulling more than ‘2g’. Both these have changed dramatically. In my time I had insisted on putting the Matra Magic missile on the Jaguar and much of the Russian strike fleet came with air to air missile capability with missiles of comparable performance. I am sure today’s missiles must be even more agile and capable. In our context, meeting enemy ‘air defense’ opposition in the tactical area would be remote and the chances are more that we meet enemy aircraft of somewhat similar capabilities doing the same job. It would be interesting to find out if any of our close support mission in ’65 or ’71 met an air defense CAP. Almost all our missions are four aircraft missions and, if our strike aircraft carried missiles, they should be more than capable of looking after themselves without flying ‘air defense’ capable multi-role aircraft. I expect that our ground attack pilots are well trained in air combat and cross cover, with the large number of fighter combat leaders in the squadrons, unlike what it was in ’65 and ’71. We could even stretch this to counter air targets, airfields and support facilities, where the air threat is low – say a possible pair of aircraft scrambled from an ORP. But, for targets that would be expected to have heavy air opposition, genuine ‘air defense’ escort can be provided. This number would be a very small portion of the counter air/strategic strikes. Such missions would also be carried out by missile equipped strike aircraft, which would complement the escort’s capabilities. In addition, surely these strike aircraft would also be equipped with flares to mislead infrared missiles.

Keeping all this in mind, I calculated in the following fashion:

1. Allocated half a squadron of air defense aircraft per each of our airfields. This was based on ORP requirements and based on the likely serviceability and usage.
2. Spoke to my good friend Lt. Gen. K.K. Hazare, the Army Vice Chief and got figures for the maximum and minimum close support they would require in all the sectors, as per their war plans. We had been together in NDC, were the Directors of Training for our respective services, were the ACAS (Ops) and DG Operations together and now the two VCASs
3. Worked out the set apart for counter air and strategic requirements, both initial and subsequent. This included the escort requirement of air defense aircraft for high risk targets.
4. And Voila!! That left me with the residual aircraft that could be multi-role, for switching, based on the ground and air situations. This worked out to three squadrons. We already had two genuine multi-role squadrons and therefore our need was only to reequip one more squadron with this capability

So, I sent a note to the DCAS saying that I could not support his estimate and we needed only one more Multi-role squadron. He was certainly very upset and tried to tell me, on the phone, that this was not meeting the Long Term Reequipment Plan. I told him that he was on his own. He did submit his plan to the Government, who asked the Scientific Advisor to the Defense Minister to analyze the need. Strangely, by whatever algorithm they used, they came to the same conclusions I did, even though it was not with inputs from me. I doubt that their methodology was as ‘scientific’ as mine!! That put an end to the 18 Squadrons of Multi-role aircraft at that time.

So, there you have my thinking on the subject of the quantum of multi-role fighters for the Indian Air Force. I believe that we would be a much more effective and optimum force with just the right number of ‘dedicated role’ aircraft and the balance as multi-role ones. A vital consideration is the number of aircraft and PILOTS one exposes on strike missions. To achieve a given ‘Over Target Requirements’, one would need to send many more multi-role aircraft than dedicated ones as the latter would carry a heavier load. Only a very rich country with a large supply of pilots can afford to have a large multi-role fleet. Do we meet those parameters?

But the IAF, as I read from the papers, is again determined to buy the magic number of 18 multi-role aircraft. Hope this article doesn’t upset the applecart.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright © Air Marshal S Raghavendran . All rights reserved. Reproduction in whole or in part in any form or medium without express written permission of Air Marshal S Raghavendran is prohibited.
 
.
Americans have F-22, F-16, F-15, F-18, S-7Viking, A-10
Bombers F-117A, B-2, B-1B.............
 
.
I dont quite agree with former Air Chief's point of view, maybe Murad sir can put some more light here
 
.
I thin 5 types of ac is fine as well lets put it this way,

At any moment either two of this or one of this will be serving whikle another slowly phased out.

Mig 21 - LCA
Mig 23/27 - MRCA
Su 30MKI
Mirage 2000 Upgraded/ Mig 29 Upgraded - PAKFA/MCA

So essentially 5 types of aircraft,and 4 types of choppers, and 2 types of AWACS is fine...
 
.
Why is that IAF doesnt have Bombers? Especially after canberaa retired now..Would love to have those beautiful Su-34, or something of that sort.
 
.
Joey, you forgot the Jags,

We dont need heavy bombers Adux. What we need a strike packages with HARM's, etc. We dont need to bomb Pakistan a lot. We just need to focus on some locations in Pakistan. That can be easily done once air superiority is achieved using our vast number of planes.
 
.
Malay,

I am not looking at China or Pakistan. 10 years down the line, we will be a differnet unit alltogether. We need heavy bombers. No Fighter aircraft is an efficient bomber. They never have the payload. Not enough bombs
 
.

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom