IAF Pilot comments on Babur Missile

[Samudra]

I'd think so. But BVR has its limitations too.

Ultimately a weapon is not to be analyzed on its own. In the case of the Sukhoi the airframe, range and other characteristics would be rendered less effective without a radar such as BARS and Russian BVR missiles. So on and so forth.

 

[blain2]

But what is the point of merely detecting enemy missiles ? You need to shoot them down.A decent AAM would finish off a cruise missile easily.

In our case recollect that our big birds can carry almost a dozen AAM's and will comfortably engage any bandits - their lock on ranges against PAF targets are longer than PAF aircrafts lock on ranges. IAF has been practising BVR sniping against some of the best air forces of the world for this very reason.

In my humble opinion, super-duper, exceedingly long Radar ranges mean nothing because none of the BVRAAMs out there in service are able to exploit ranges beyond 60-100 km currently even though the tracking and lock on ranges of the MKI as an example may be considerably more. Also none of the IAF exercises with the USAF, RAF or ADA have been conducted with aircraft taking shots at BVR. The USAF F-15s and F-16s were not allowed to take BVR shots against the IAF aircraft (while at the same time a flight of two having to cope with upwards of 10-12 IAF aircraft arrayed against them). As far as BVR tactics are concerned, I am sure IAF has been refining those.

So while bandits and IAF aircrafts both know about each others position IAF would be in a position to engage the bandits before the bandits.

Not all the time. All radars have blind spots and even the AESA radars are no exception to this case. Additionally, with DLinking on the PAF aircraft, the key thing would be the effectiveness and ranges of the BVRAAMs deployed. There would be a detection-galore in the future because both Air Forces are investing so much to attain greater Situational Awareness in the air. The key would be to see who has better AAMs and at what ranges these can be used.

The Bars radar on the Sukhoi is the most powerful beast Russian's ever built. It can do A2A and A2G mode simultaneously. It should detect a cruise missile comfortably from as far as 75-100 KMs away. The Russian BVR shots easily out range AIM-120. So the Sukhois theoretically can shoot down the cruise missiles and turn around to handle the bandits comfortably. Practically it would get a lot more tricky because BVR shots aren't truly effective at those extra long ranges quoted on brochures but then...that is all we know.

Being lucky and in the air at the time the LACM is up in the air is one thing, getting airborne after a dozen or so have been launched against targets an entirely different thing. Russians claim everything to be much greater than what the west puts out, but effectiveness, seekers, and guidance are always questionable (The western technology when it comes to seekers, guidance etc. has traditionally been better than the Russian because they tend to do more research), so I remain skeptical about the effectiveness of these missiles. Also the point about Russian missiles easily out ranging AIM-120 is a non-factual statement. When and what has a Russian missile hit in the recent past for you to draw the conclusion that these Russian BVRAAMs out range AIM-120? Do you know for a fact that they are just as effective at 55km (a fairly doable thing for most current generation BVR AAMs) as they are at 100km? I am not sure if this really is the case.

 

[Quwa]

i had no idea thales was working on a light-fighter AESA. i thought they were working on AESA for Rafale. please provide a link.

You got hundreds of light fighters set to enter service from 2010...companies such as Galileo Avionica and Northrop have already entered the boat, why not Thales? Don't think of Thales as a firm with limited capability...there will be a light fighter AESA from them.

 

[blain2]

The Bars have such a wide coverage - both range and angles that they can't miss a Erieye flying anywhere near 150-200 kilometers. Besides IAF ADGES would detect any AWACS flying 200 kilometers on the other side of the border. Remember the AWACS needs to be flying high and with escorts. They are very visible on ground based radars far away.

I believe a formation of Sukhois alone can handle a few cruise/A2A plus an AWACS complete with its escorts in a reasonable scenario.

The formation could easily deploy one or two Sukhoi aircrafts to handle the missiles and the rest two could comfortably handle an ERIEYE formation because the F-16/JF-17 is already in their LOCK ON range long before the PAF fighters can deploy their missiles.

So it finally boils down to who shoots first NOT who detects first. I would imagine knowing the positions of IAF aircrafts would help PAF position their aircrafts accordingly but then its really hard to imagine Su-30MKI's not detecting an ERIEYE size target for that long.

The ERIEYE aircrafts can really help in a defensive posture but it would be rendered useless beyond a point if it were used for offensive operations.

It's just an academic exercise - in a real war I'd imagine there are going to be so many clusters of sensors and shooters that all this would look like a joke.

Samudra,

For some reason you assume that the OTH radar capability such as Erieye only gives off radar signals and paints a nice bulls eye for ground based SAMs or for aircraft with AI radars and BVRAAMs. The reality is that because the AEW aircraft are such an expensive asset, they come with an extremely extensive set of ECMs (including emitters which happen to be much more capable than what would be available on a combat aircraft) which would disrupt the detection as well as the communications going on between aircraft coming in to intercept them. The escorts around the AEW aircraft are essentially the last resort, however the AEW platforms have considerable self protection and evasion capability to denigrate the other sides ability to track and lock-on. In order to come close and attain a lock-on to most of the AEW aircraft, you need to be able to see through massive jamming and EW being directed at your aircraft's radar and sensors. This is not an easy task.

As a sidebar, In 1978/9, the USAF flew their F-111s in an exercise with the PAF. The F-111s conducted EW missions around Karachi and the telephone exchanges were hurting all over the city during the night. This was 30 years ago and in the analog days, just imagine the amount of hardware and technology available on an AEW platform now to disrupt the radars on fighter sized aircraft.

 

[Samudra]

n my humble opinion, super-duper, exceedingly long Radar ranges mean nothing because none of the BVRAAMs out there in service are able to exploit ranges beyond 60-100 km currently even though the tracking and lock on ranges of the MKI as an example may be considerably more

In terms of situational awareness when there is no AWACS support it would certainly be beneficial I'd imagine?

You're clearly wrong about BVR in exercises. BVR has been practised against opponents as far back as 2003. Exercise Garuda with ADA, Indradanush with RAF etc. As regarding the fairness of the competition you'd know that we've been flying with so many air forces.I'd imagine they'd come for a fight and education not merely to teach Indian pilots to win over easily.

he key would be to see who has better AAMs and at what ranges these can be used.

AWACS are also the biggest targets flying in the sky. IAF and PAF would be aiming to shoot them down in the first few days of the conflict. So the chances are either forces could lose an AWACS or two as well.

Exactly what I've been telling so far.

Being lucky and in the air at the time the LACM is up in the air is one thing, getting airborne after a dozen or so have been launched against targets an entirely different thing

CAPs. They're going to put up as many aircrafts as they can for as long as they can.

As for effectiveness of Russian weapon systems I'd say their performance in IAF have been very much upto the mark. There are test fires and routine simulations that happen periodically. They'll do the job.

 

[Samudra]

For some reason you assume that the OTH radar capability such as Erieye only gives off radar signals and paints a nice bulls eye for ground based SAMs or for aircraft with AI radars and BVRAAMs. The reality is that because the AEW aircraft are such an expensive asset, they come with an extremely extensive set of ECMs (including emitters which happen to be much more capable than what would be available on a combat aircraft) which would disrupt the detection as well as the communications going on between aircraft coming in to intercept them

Yes indeed, but there are such things such as IRST's as well. No weapon or sensor system is invincible. Would not emitters disrupt friendly communications as well or would they choose to jam the enemy frequencies ? Its more complex than 'we have a jammer we'd jam you' I'd imagine. I didn't say killing an AWACS is easy but hey, its not impossible either.

 

[EagleEyes]

I wasn't talking about fighter plane rather AESA equipped fighter plane which is itself an mini-awacs could be quite helpful in trackking and targeting cruise missile.

Radar technology doesn't depends upon its fortune rather its tracking range and assiging the target to adjoining air to surface missiles. Since we already have long range radar like Green Pine, as well as DRDO version of Green pine as well as Rajendra radar in addition to several other existing operational long range radar which are optimum enough to foil in cruise missiles offensive intention.

What are the success rate of that in a wartime? Extremely low.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Whats the minimum target size detection on the IAF fighters anyway?

 

[KENT]

What are the success rate of that in a wartime?

About what airborne radar or ground based radar?

Extremely low.

Kindly explain,

 

[EagleEyes]

About what airborne radar or ground based radar?

Both.

Kindly explain,

So here it is. India with three AWACs and 126 combat air planes with AN/APG-79 AESA radar (which India will not get even in her dreams) some how are operating over the mighty India. Now lets just say those planes dont have to confront any plane of the PAF or they have no responsibilities of providing ground support.

Now understand the coverage area of AWACs and the fighter planes equipped with APG-79 AESA. This may vary.

Now just believe that Pakistan has ran out of cruise missiles. Five cruise missile with a range of 700 km and speed of 550 mph are launched. Now one missile has to destroy a target just 60 km away, others with target ranges of 120 km, 180 km, 220 km, and 600 km respectively. Now these cruise missiles are launched from undisclosed locations. All the cruise missiles have a very small radar signature only to be detected in the 50 km area. Now depending on the reaction time, and weapons availability. You have successfully shot down three of them. Congratulations.

 

[KENT]

Both.

As far as their testing performance is concerned then both of them are quite great since AESA that is being offered by US are known for having an operational AESA in the world, so I can assure you their performance would be lucid as far as their prestige is concerned.

Regarding Land based, I mentioned Green Pine, Indian version of Green pine and Rajendra in addition to existing radar, so as far as current anti-Ballastic test is concern as well as succesful induction Akash missile and its successful trial rate is concerned I can assure you, your previous statement hold complete invalidity.

So here it is. India with three AWACs and 126 combat air planes with AN/APG-79 AESA radar

It is not AN/APG-80 AESA radar which is next only AESA radars configured in stealth fighter planes like F-22 and F-35, regarding Awacs we are not gona get only 3 rather more then that. APG-79 AESA has been offered with F-18

(which India will not get even in her dreams)

Oh really, and hence LM had taken extra hard work to develop APG-80 just only for India, which never dream off any Indian, still LM is lobbying hard to get it below the throat of the Indian inspite of they know their F-16 would never gona shortlisted. Oh we don't even need to dream it off since world is offering us to get it.

some how are operating over the mighty India.

Whatever!

Now lets just say those planes dont have to confront any plane of the PAF or they have no responsibilities of providing ground support.

Definetly since PAF only have to confront with our oldy Mig-21s, since upgraded and BVR equipped Bisions are more then enough to hold its own against PAF, there is no need of spending extra fuel by sending MRCA.

Now understand the coverage area of AWACs and the fighter planes equipped with APG-79 AESA. This may vary.
Now just believe that Pakistan has ran out of cruise missiles. Five cruise missile with a range of 700 km and speed of 550 mph are launched. Now one missile has to destroy a target just 60 km away, others with target ranges of 120 km, 180 km, 220 km, and 600 km respectively. Now these cruise missiles are launched from undisclosed locations. All the cruise missiles have a very small radar signature only to be detected in the 50 km area. Now depending on the reaction time, and weapons availability. You have successfully shot down three of them. Congratulations.

Thank You very much!

 

[EagleEyes]

So KENT your mighty MiG-21s can take down the whole PAF?

What about the rest of the Indian godly powers mate? The ones in your signature which require only and only divine intervention (FYI, Intervation is not a word)?

Stop fooling yourself and people here, and kindly grow the hell up.

 

[KENT]

So KENT your mighty MiG-21s can take down the whole PAF?

Heck, I can say it with convication, if you don't want to believe it then its not my problem.

What about the rest of the Indian godly powers mate?

They are primarly for chinese aggresion.

The ones in your signature which require only and only divine intervention (FYI, Intervation is not a word)?

Then tell me what does that mean?

Stop fooling yourself and people here,

I know my previous statement definetly gona attract some spicy remarks like above since people who are disfavouring my previous claim, unfortunatly they can't counter it with some reality.

and kindly grow the hell up.

Prove me which fighter plane of PAF gona challange Mig-21 Bisons.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

Heck, I can say it with convication, if you don't want to believe it then its not my problem.

Well they couldn't take down our hand launched SAMs, so i doubt they stand a chance against the PAF. Let's hope they make it to the border without crashing.

They are primarly for chinese aggresion.

I doubt it's enough to stop chinese aggression, otherwise you wouldn't have chinese soldiers trespassing the border like they STILL do today.

Prove me which fighter plane of PAF gona challange Mig-21 Bisons.

As i mentioned earlier, if you can make it pass the air defense we have at this time, you can HOPE to at least pose a threat to our air force. Be prepared for our air defense that we shall have in the future and also for our aircraft in the future. try not to crash before reaching the border. Other than that, I think our Mirages and F-16's should be more than enough.

 

[blain2]

Yes indeed, but there are such things such as IRST's as well. No weapon or sensor system is invincible. Would not emitters disrupt friendly communications as well or would they choose to jam the enemy frequencies ? Its more complex than 'we have a jammer we'd jam you' I'd imagine. I didn't say killing an AWACS is easy but hey, its not impossible either.

Most IRST systems (certainly the ones on the IAF aircraft or any other operational ones) would never be able to track an AEW platform that is 200 km out. We are talking about IRST ranges in the 15-100 km MAX!!! There are limitations in this technology simply owing to the atmospheric conditions which limit the range afforded by IRST technology.

Secondly, emitters operate against certain frequencies which during wartime change for all air forces (they plan with peacetime and wartime frequencies). There are certain bands which are reserved for friendlies and EW/Jamming that is conducted would be done while being mindful of what these frequencies are that the friendlies are using.

Nothing is impossible, however there are quite a few hurdles before you make killing an AEW asset possible.