IAF Pilot comments on Babur Missile

[blain2]

In terms of situational awareness when there is no AWACS support it would certainly be beneficial I'd imagine?

Agreed. It would help when no AWACS is available.

You're clearly wrong about BVR in exercises. BVR has been practised against opponents as far back as 2003. Exercise Garuda with ADA, Indradanush with RAF etc. As regarding the fairness of the competition you'd know that we've been flying with so many air forces.I'd imagine they'd come for a fight and education not merely to teach Indian pilots to win over easily.

Samudra,

Again practicing BVR is fine, but its done theoretically with assumed ranges of the BVR systems which are not openly disclosed due to lingering suspicions and other security considerations. The only way to find out how they would perform is to actually use these missiles at claimed ranges (something that has been done with at least the AIM-120). I have read pretty considerably about the rules set for both CI and Indradhanush exercises in the US and British forums and magazines, and in all of the exercises conducted, at least with the USAF and RAF, the BVR simulation was minimal and theoretical.

Now do not take this to be denigrating IAF's own BVR tactics which I am sure are constantly being refined by entities such as TACDE. In terms of Pakistan and India case, yes the IAF has had more time with BVR capability, but that alone is not going to make the difference. The capabilities of the weapons (BVRAAMs) themselves would be key as well.

CAPs. They're going to put up as many aircrafts as they can for as long as they can.

Lets not get carried away with CAPs. To give you a perspective we flew almost 10,000 sorties during the Afghan war trying to track intruding *aircraft* and a majority of these was with CAPs being vectored to incoming aircraft and they were found to be a waste of time and resources in most cases. With LACMs, the volume and trajectories flown by the LACMs makes the job that much harder.

Its a matter of luck if you are talking about taking on LACMs with CAPs and combat aircraft. AESA on the F/A-18 claims this capability as a "can do". There really isn't a defence against LACMs...this goes both for supersonic and subsonic LACMs. So essentially both IAF and PAF have no counter for the LACM attack. You may be able to shoot down a few and that would be the extent of it.

As for effectiveness of Russian weapon systems I'd say their performance in IAF have been very much upto the mark. There are test fires and routine simulations that happen periodically. They'll do the job.

There is a big difference in shooting missiles during a firing camp being conducted by the Air Force in which drones are shot down versus against a maneuvering aircraft using active and passive methods to jam the homing of the missiles. I am not saying the Russian systems suck, but thus far I have not seen them outperforming Western systems in any campaign. There are other signs too that these are not as good as they are made out to be, but that is better left for a discussion some other time.

 

[KENT]

Well they couldn't take down our hand launched SAMs,

How does they supposed to taken down MANPADS since they were flying low and and it was in search of missing Mig-27 and on the top of that they were not compitable enough to fly high attitudes still IAF taken that risk. And how many Mig-21s you were manage to shot down? only one there were several and on top of that those Mig-21s weren't equipped with chaff and dispenser to evade IR guided missiles but todays MIG-21 are equipped with all the components that are enough to futile any MANPAD threat of PA.

so i doubt they stand a chance against the PAF.

Don't worry now they are upgraded to hold their own against PAF's F-16 even most of PAF's F-16 still havn't taken even configured with BVR whereas ours are already.

Let's hope they make it to the border without crashing.

Crashes are not things of past. During 90s Mig-21 crashes were at peak still IAF manage to flew them successfully during the kargil.

I doubt it's enough to stop chinese aggression,

You may doubt since you havn't taken in account IAF's air defence system in the mind where they have the capability of penetrating ballastic missile let alone chinese aircrafts.

otherwise you wouldn't have chinese soldiers trespassing the border like they STILL do today.

Yes, they do since border is not properly demarcated and on top of that Indian soldiers also intrude their territory as well since line of control isn't properly demarcated and hence confusion do get created. On the top of that IA is on huge shopping spree of light weight artillary as well raising of new division equipped with sophisticted electronic device to tackle chinese.

As i mentioned earlier, if you can make it pass the air defense we have at this time,

Kindly elobrate which air defence system are you talking about, is it oldy Manpads, crotales, etc

you can HOPE to at least pose a threat to our air force.

Because of several loopholes in your air defence system.

Be prepared for our air defense that we shall have in the future and also for our aircraft in the future.

Yes in future you also gona be have stealth planes as well so we are ready, but as far as today's airdefence system taken in mind of PAF and PA, I think my claim of Mig-21 superiority over PAF hold emmense validity.

Whatever the aircraft that you are gona inducted in future would not be enough as far as their generation is concerned.

try not to crash before reaching the border.

As far as successful performance of MIG-21 during is the war is concerned then none of them would get crashed.

Other than that, I think our Mirages and F-16's should be more than enough.

Yes they would be, but they aren't even taste the flavour of BVR as yet and whereas our Mig-21s are also fitted with BVR and creadible radar to takle in threat posed by PAF.

 

[blain2]

How does they supposed to taken down MANPADS since they were flying low and and it was in search of missing Mig-27 and on the top of that they were not compitable enough to fly high attitudes still IAF taken that risk. And how many Mig-21s you were manage to shot down? only one there were several and on top of that those Mig-21s weren't equipped with chaff and dispenser to evade IR guided missiles but todays MIG-21 are equipped with all the components that are enough to futile any MANPAD threat of PA.

To make futile any MANPAD threat is a big statement. Things constantly change so I do not think any low level MANPADs threat can be discounted so easily.

Don't worry now they are upgraded to hold their own against PAF's F-16 even most of PAF's F-16 still havn't taken even configured with BVR whereas ours are already.

Correct. On the paper at least, PAF is still inhibited by the lack of a first shot capability.

Kindly elobrate which air defence system are you talking about, is it oldy Manpads, crotales, etc

Nothing old about PAF's ADS. In terms of integration of ground radars, CRCs and automation, I am pretty darn sure its one of the best ADS in Asia (we built it with US input in the late 70s and early 80s and have continuously upgraded the system). If you are talking about defensive assets in the Air Defence Ground Environment, then all of the PAF Crotales have been upgraded to the Crotale 4000 standard which provides better ECM and range. Secondly, PAF have purchased massive numbers of Mistral MANPADS and these along with Stingers and Anza MANPADs pose a serious threat to any low level sorties against Pakistani vital points. Additionally, PAF have recently placed orders for SPADA 2000 systems which are bound to improve the overall ADGE in terms of deterrence. The ARMY has the RBS-70 and is looking at one more medium altitude system for induction.

Whatever the aircraft that you are gona inducted in future would not be enough as far as their generation is concerned.

What do you mean? Do you think that overnight IAF is turning into a 5th gen Air Force? The vast majority of the IAF will remain in the 4-4.5 gen and PAF will be in the same boat. All of the upgrades currently going on in the PAF aim to put the aircraft right in the middle of 4 to 4.5 gen capability. This would be very comparable. Obviously IAF will always have more aircraft, but there won't be a generational difference that we seem to have now.

 

[Joodi]

What do you mean? Do you think that overnight IAF is turning into a 5th gen Air Force? The vast majority of the IAF will remain in the 4-4.5 gen and PAF will be in the same boat. All of the upgrades currently going on in the PAF aim to put the aircraft right in the middle of 4 to 4.5 gen capability. This would be very comparable. Obviously IAF will always have more aircraft, but there won't be a generational difference that we seem to have now.

In the coming yrs bulk IAF inventroy will comprise of:

MRCA (any 4.5 gereration), induction completes in 25 yrs, with first batch in 2013
LCA (4th gerenration), first batch probable induction in 2012-13.
MKI's (4.5 generation)
up graded mirage (4th gerenartion)
Different upgraded old MIgs (4th gerenation)
Juagars


In the coming yrs bulk PAF inventroy will comprise of:

F16- 52+ (4.5 generation)
F16-MLU (4.5 gereration)
JF-17 (4th generation), 2nd batch with eurpoean avionics 7 weaponary in 2012
PAF customized- J-10 (4.5 generation), by 2010
Different up graded mirages (4th generation)


now we can clearly see the so called IAF generation superiority hypothesis over PAF.

 

[KENT]

To make futile any MANPAD threat is a big statement.

But it existed in reality as well, since during the kargil war several stingers were fired towards Mirage, Mig-21, Mig-27 but only two manage to scored the hits.

Things constantly change so I do not think any low level MANPADs threat can be discounted so easily.

Yes but countermeasures are always in place to get rid of MANPADs.

Correct. On the paper at least, PAF is still inhibited by the lack of a first shot capability.

Nothing old about PAF's ADS. In terms of integration of ground radars, CRCs and automation, I am pretty darn sure its one of the best ADS in Asia (we built it with US input in the late 70s and early 80s and have continuously upgraded the system). If you are talking about defensive assets in the Air Defence Ground Environment, then all of the PAF Crotales have been upgraded to the Crotale 4000 standard which provides better ECM and range. Secondly, PAF have purchased massive numbers of Mistral MANPADS and these along with Stingers and Anza MANPADs pose a serious threat to any low level sorties against Pakistani vital points. Additionally, PAF have recently placed orders for SPADA 2000 systems which are bound to improve the overall ADGE in terms of deterrence. The ARMY has the RBS-70 and is looking at one more medium altitude system for induction.

I am quite aware about that but their shorter to mediuem range trejectiory makes them quite vulnerable to high attitude bombing as well as inclusion of stand off weapon and anti-radiation missile like Kh in IAF.

What do you mean? Do you think that overnight IAF is turning into a 5th gen Air Force?

I didn't said so but I have reason for that in the context of signing of PAK-FA contract with Russians as well as tunnel testing of MCA. Whereas in the context of PAF there is no such thing is even in long proximity, as it is solely depends upon china for stealth fighter.

The vast majority of the IAF will remain in the 4-4.5 gen

True and it currently it is.

and PAF will be in the same boat.

Yes "it will" but with some unforseen future.

All of the upgrades currently going on in the PAF aim to put the aircraft right in the middle of 4 to 4.5 gen capability.

Kindly give some hard fact about it as with which inclusion of aircraft it is going on.

This would be very comparable. Obviously IAF will always have more aircraft, but there won't be a generational difference that we seem to have now.

Yes but IAF's future seems to be more secure as far as political and diplomatic environment prevaling over there, in contrast in case of PAF it is vice-versa.

 

[blain2]

But it existed in reality as well, since during the kargil war several stingers were fired towards Mirage, Mig-21, Mig-27 but only two manage to scored the hits.

Well there is no such a thing as 100% accuracy. And for your information, the two downed aircraft, as per Pakistan Army Air Defence were hit by a combination of Anzas and Stingers (I know the reason why its only Stingers and not Anzas in your post or the usual Indian take on it). "its ok to get shot down by American technology, but no way that a Pakistani produced MANPAD could have taken down an IAF aircraft"...

Secondly, the use of MANPADs changed the IAF tactics completely. They took out the Mig-21s and Mig-27s from the theater along with helis and started operating outside the range of MANPADs. So this is typically the effect of MANPADs.

Yes but countermeasures are always in place to get rid of MANPADs.

In Iraq, whenever a threat of MANPADs has been seen, the Coalition aircraft (with probably the most advanced Counter measures) have resorted to operating at higher altitudes. So the threat is not as easily countered by putting chaff and flares on the aircraft.

I am quite aware about that but their shorter to mediuem range trejectiory makes them quite vulnerable to high attitude bombing as well as inclusion of stand off weapon and anti-radiation missile like Kh in IAF.

So will all missions be carried out with stand-off weapons?

I didn't said so but I have reason for that in the context of signing of PAK-FA contract with Russians as well as tunnel testing of MCA. Whereas in the context of PAF there is no such thing is even in long proximity, as it is solely depends upon china for stealth fighter.

You may not know but talking about the PAK-FA is a moot point currently when even the MMRCAs may not be inducted in the IAF service until 2020. (I state this based on the statements of some IAF officials to Janes - take a look here: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...9732-getting-step-india-country-briefing.html).

However, senior IAF officers are playing down the MoD's optimism that the MRCA acquisition - 18 off the shelf and the remaining 108 to be built domestically under licence - will be completed by 2012-14. They do not expect the fighters to join squadron service before 2020, given the MoD's complex, bureaucratic and ever-changing procurement procedures, especially the issue of the MRCA's 50 per cent offset obligation - an increase over the usual 30 per cent. "The MRCA are likely to remain operational for over 40 years, rendering their selection more arduous and time consuming," a two-star IAF officer said.

So Lets talk about what you have right now and in the next 10 years at least...its pretty much all 3rd gen and 4-4.5 gen.

Yes "it will" but with some unforseen future.

As will IAF have MRCA and Tejas, which alone make up more than half of the IAF 4-4.5 gen fleet and they are nowhere in sight right now. Lets table the discussion for future about the PAK-FA using the same logic.

Kindly give some hard fact about it as with which inclusion of aircraft it is going on.

F-16 MLU (undergoing currently with F-16s already in the US). This will cover the entire fleet. The upgrades on the blk-15s give them at least an M3 tape, which, barring AESA, gives PAF the same capability as any other 4-4.5 generation aircraft. The blk-52 is as 4-4.5 gen as they come. The JF-17 road-map (of things to be integrated on the aircraft) as well as the ongoing avionics and weapons package ensure that the aircraft firmly sits in the 4th generation range. So I am not sure what facts you need. Simply read what is going into the JF-17s and the F-16 program. Secondly, anything PAF gets in terms of the FC-20 would be in the 4.5 generation.

Yes but IAF's future seems to be more secure as far as political and diplomatic environment prevaling over there, in contrast in case of PAF it is vice-versa.

Political and diplomatic environment changes. For some reason I do not see everything hunky dorey on the India-Russia front either at this time. Does it mean that business does not go on? I think not. Each country has its own challenges. Pakistan has made a commendable effort to ensure that in the future, it can effectively cope with external threats using the JF-17s and FC-20s even if a western platform is barred. So I think PAF is in a pretty good situation overall. Chinese avionics and weapons are constantly improving providing Pakistan an alternate to Western solution which was never available in the past.

 

[Joodi]

I didn't said so but I have reason for that in the context of signing of PAK-FA contract with Russians as well as tunnel testing of MCA. Whereas in the context of PAF there is no such thing is even in long proximity, as it is solely depends upon china for stealth fighter.

Oh come on man, dont even think of PAK-FA and MCA for 20 yrs. signing of deal and lab test, hahaha, no 5th generation fighter jet is going to be inducted in IAF till 2030. and this was said by IAF chief himself last yr. that a induction of a 5th generation jet in IAF could be as earliest by 2030. MCA , with LCA taking 25 yrs. up till now and still 4-5 yrs to go for its induction in IAF, we would expect MCA by another 30 yrs on wards. Prospects for PAK-FA are bright but its induction is still too far way. At the earliest by 2025-30, till then just chill.

Yes "it will" but with some unforseen future.

and what are those unforseen future, elobrate plz. would u kindly share any such dooms day scenerios,

Kindly give some hard fact about it as with which inclusion of aircraft it is going on.

Dear go n check it out urself dear, do some reading and if u have a confusion i m there to clear that one. Read abt the F-16 block C/D 52+, read abt massive MLU upgardes on pakistani F-16, go and check out the PAF customized J-10 which PAF is planning to procure, and 250 jf-17 with european avionics, radar, AESA, and weapon suit.

Yes but IAF's future seems to be more secure as far as political and diplomatic environment prevaling over there, in contrast in case of PAF it is vice-versa.

Oh, IAF future seems to be secure and PAF not, (interesting theory),

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

i wanted to answer, but i guess the members took the words right out of my mouth