IAF issues ASR for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA )

[Chanakyaa]

Dont forget the uniqe intel we are getting fron PaK FA.

i hav read rumours that Mig is keen to assist india in MCA, we may see some intel from mig 1.44 as well.

 

[indushek]

I hope this does not go tejas way in delays etc, best of luck DRDO

 

[Dash]

Good news!!!

Semi – Stealth is not an option , IAF wants it to be fully Stealthy aircraft with low RCS .

Dont you guys think this plane is different than all 5th Gen planes made?.

I mean the weight of this plane for a 5th Gen keeps it in a different class
What is more interesting here is IAF wants a fully stealthy aircraft.
According to an article where ADA they are not fully equipped now to create a 5th gen fighter..

Apart from Radar and Engine there are so many other things that make it a fully stealthy plane. I looked at the earlier model of MCA where I found the Air intakes are quite small and Engine outlets are not stealthy at all.

Now Russian T-50 which is suppposed to give the know how of a fifth gen fighter to Indian scientists, is not fully stealthy at all.
Now if its powered by 2 90 Kn Kaveri engine, then keepinng it below 25 tn will be good as this plane will have good power...

Even F-35 is of 125 Kn with single engine with an empty weight of 30 tn.
AMCA with 180 Kn with empty weight of 25tn will have ample power...

Its will be the same size of Euro fighter with same thurst but a "perfect stealthy" plane...

It will be fun to see how much stealthy this plane is going to be..
At least the Engine outlets..

Will it be like Raptor or Raptorski, time will tell.....
But for a fully stealthy plane, this is going to be "Big challenge"

 

[jagjitnatt]

Good news!!!



Dont you guys think this plane is different than all 5th Gen planes made?.

I mean the weight of this plane for a 5th Gen keeps it in a different class
What is more interesting here is IAF wants a fully stealthy aircraft.
According to an article where ADA they are not fully equipped now to create a 5th gen fighter..

Apart from Radar and Engine there are so many other things that make it a fully stealthy plane. I looked at the earlier model of MCA where I found the Air intakes are quite small and Engine outlets are not stealthy at all.

Now Russian T-50 which is suppposed to give the know how of a fifth gen fighter to Indian scientists, is not fully stealthy at all.
Now if its powered by 2 90 Kn Kaveri engine, then keepinng it below 25 tn will be good as this plane will have good power...

Even F-35 is of 125 Kn with single engine with an empty weight of 30 tn.
AMCA with 180 Kn with empty weight of 25tn will have ample power...

Its will be the same size of Euro fighter with same thurst but a "perfect stealthy" plane...

It will be fun to see how much stealthy this plane is going to be..
At least the Engine outlets..

Will it be like Raptor or Raptorski, time will tell.....
But for a fully stealthy plane, this is going to be "Big challenge"

I think you got confused with the numbers a little. F35 is not 30 tons, but 30, 000 pounds and 13300 kg.

Acc to me the 25 ton limit is meaningless. There are no fighters above that limit. The AMCA could be around 11-15 ton aircraft at most. In order to get the stealth benefit it is required to keep it light and small.

The requirements are a BIG challenge not only to DRDO but any other aerospace company out there. It would only be possible from tech from Pak-Fa project. No way India can do it alone.

 

[Dash]

I think you got confused with the numbers a little. F35 is not 30 tons, but 30, 000 pounds and 13300 kg.

yes, a little confused...
However if thats the case then another question comes then its not medium class or the name "Advance "medium" combat aircraft.

As you pointed its a challenge to any other aerospace industry, it will be worth watching the first wing tunnel design.

and the requirement if IAF is also very high, they want something on lines with Raptor....

If DRDO settles itself with something like F-35 then I dont know what IAF will do here, may be they will agree, may be not.....is the question..

 

[deckingraj]

well a key reason behind tejas's delay was that india directly jumped from a second gen aircraft HAL Marut to a 4.5 gen one......but as now we a enough expertise i don't think much delay will be there and the good news is that Godrej Aerospace-which provided technological support to our chandrayaan mission is also participating....also in the list is Titan Industries (the famous Indian watchmaker of the world)!

I agree with you however remember that IAF is looking for total stealth not semi stealth....5 generation aircraft are very new in the market and not many people/countries have expertise in it...In fact apart from US no one has got their hands dirty with it...Russia is playing catching up game... So in other words there is a potential of delay unless and until DRDO has prior expertise of dealing with stealth....Can any member throw some light on it???

 

[ao333]

I'm not trying to troll the Indians here, but you guys have to get some facts straight.

1) Marut is designed to be a 2nd gen by Kurt Tank, a German. Its Rolls-Royce engine did not allow it to come anywhere close to the design specs. It ended up flying subsonic, hardly a 2nd gen. Many 1st gen flew faster than Marut.

2) Nothing other than the frame of the Tejas makes it 4.5 gen. The only thing, which comes close is its Israeli radar. Its avionics is not even in the same league as Gripen, F-16E/F/IN and MIG-35. Furthermore, we don't know if Israel will sell M-2052 in quantity for future Tejas production.

3) So in terms of "lessons learned" for Tejas, it's a jump from 1st to 4th gen as Indians couldn't design second gen planes nor produce first-gen turbojets for Marut. Even the first gen spare engines were made by Rolls Royce. The Chinese certified their turbofan WS-10, which is superior to Kaveri in 2006 and had 4 years of problems. In the best scenario, the Kaveri would be certified by 2012, and struggles will continue until 2015.

4) I would like to shed some light on the AMCA. SNECMA took over 12 years to fully develop the M88 for Rafale. They'd also be walking blind when developing a fifth gen engine with TVC. Moreover, the deal is not even signed and the aircraft is still under evaluation. I simply do not understand how India can induct a fifth gen in 15 years, when the only things it will learn from FGFA is how to make a mission computer, cockpit displays and navigation systems. http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/India-says-to-have-fifth-generation-jets-in-2018/articleshow/5849687.cms

I'm going to refrain from making derogatory remarks.

 

[KEETARP]

^^^^^^
I think you havent read about tejas
You say only airframe is 4.5 Gen.
1.-
Have you seen the FCS and FBW of Tejas . Its qudraplex and fully digital while Gripen has 3 digital and 1 analogue .The unstable configuration of LCA demands a highly efficient Integrated Flight Control System (IFCS) to fly the aircraft and thats acheived by The Digital Flight Control Computer (DFCC) which is the heart of IFCS, which uses a quadruplex redundant system to achieve high reliability and safety.
Meaning even if 2 backups fail the flight will return to base . How many 4gen aircraft have those system.

I am not going into detail of RCS reduction and composites+RAM , no other 4 or 4.5 gen aircraft uses that much composites currently. IR reduction has Y shaped intakes which hide compressor blades at I part of Y , while Air is directed through V part.
This RCS reduction , have you seen these type of measures before 4.5 gen aircraft.

2.-
Secondly about avionics
Which part of avionics you are talking about
All avionics of modern aircraft are centered around
-USMS- Environment Control System Controller (ECSC), Engine and Electrical Monitoring System Electronics Unit (EEMS-EU), Digital Fuel Monitoring System Electronics Unit (DFM-EU) and Digital Hydraulics and Brake Management System Electronics Unit (DH-EU) are some of the parts of it . Fully digitlly controlled LRU and just need to hook up few laptops to cross check it in few hours.
-Mission computer- 32 bit MIL-STD-1521 and 2167A standards which is which Gen????? just google what std computer is on old aircrafts
and it performs mission oriented computations, flight management, reconfiguration / redundancy management and in-flight system self-tests . just hook up a laptop with mission profile and you tejas is ready to fly with ground test as well.
-Distributed system - (MIL-STD-1553B) open Buses
now which 4 gen aircraft like F16 F18 most advanced version use better buses???
- IFCS- Dealt above
-Accurate navigation and guidance- is realised through RLG based Inertial Navigation System (INS) with provision for INS / Global Positioning System (GPS) integration , now work is going on to get GLONNAS . What else you want for accurate navigation.
-Communication and DataLinks- Radio communications , I wont talk about much bcoz since last 20 years Radio communications have been Jam-Proof and same std , means Tejas is rt up there with latest Gen
-Datalinks - At present it uses a datalink system which is only inferior to Gripen's TIDLS or NATO-2ODL ( Remember these two are the fastest ones) . India has already given contract for IODL for all its aircraft and AWACS control command to have same fastest ODL.
-IFF- Thales will provide IFF system , after Red-Flag IAF has adopted to get same IFF on every aircraft. Just check the Thales brochure which Gen is that.
- EW suite-
EW suite which Tejas will carry is same as what F-35 will carry.
Its a jt venture btw Israel and DRDO to build state of art EW suite MAYAWI . Israel will use it on F-35 and Lca will use same.
Indian contribution is RWR based on TARANG2 and Fusion computers+Software . Israel will design FLIR+MAWS .
if israel is using it in F-35 ???? which Gen it is.
-Finally IRST
When DRDO was asked about 360 degree coverage IRST , they said its part of MK2 variant and Mk1 will not have it .( Do note F18 E/F still dont have IRST so does F16 Block52)
No detail is available ( Till then FLIR will do) . Rest assured it will be part of Mk2 variant similar to what DASS and PIRATE achieve .

Finally dont worry about AESA radar . Let the news come on Monday whether its 2052 , if it is that will settle the issue .
Just for knowledge F16Block52 still uses Mech scanned radar similar to Elta-2032 , even if it turns out 2032 it will not make it 3 Gen radar .



Reson for editing- I forgot to add

The glass cockpit and hands on throttle and stick (HOTAS) controls
The Head-up-Display
HMS from - I am forgetting which one Plz check 2 pages back - Yes it DASH from Elbit
laser designator pod (LDP)- Litening from ISRAEL
The cockpit is dominated by three 5"x 5" AMLCD MFD's, two Smart Standby Display Units (SSDU) , The HUD has an Up Front Control Panel (UFCP) which is a significant man machine interface (MMI) enhancement which allows the pilot to program, initialize the avionics and enter mission and system critical data through an interactive soft touch keyboard.
Display processor- based on based on four Intel 80960 microprocessors

My god one hell of a machine to replace Mig21

 

[truefriend]

HAL learns lot with LCA ..
Its well known fact they are still in development phase
but experience gonna count ...
because of LCA HAL can claim that they are going to make MCA .
so for those how troll a lot about LCA project . please go and found your own facilities ... what you can do ...

you have nothing to even claim that you going to make this and that.

 

[indushek]

^^^^^^
I think you havent read about tejas
You say only airframe is 4.5 Gen.
1.-
Have you seen the FCS and FBW of Tejas . Its qudraplex and fully digital while Gripen has 3 digital and 1 analogue .The unstable configuration of LCA demands a highly efficient Integrated Flight Control System (IFCS) to fly the aircraft and thats acheived by The Digital Flight Control Computer (DFCC) which is the heart of IFCS, which uses a quadruplex redundant system to achieve high reliability and safety.
Meaning even if 2 backups fail the flight will return to base . How many 4gen aircraft have those system.

I am not going into detail of RCS reduction and composites+RAM , no other 4 or 4.5 gen aircraft uses that much composites currently. IR reduction has Y shaped intakes which hide compressor blades at I part of Y , while Air is directed through V part.
This RCS reduction , have you seen these type of measures before 4.5 gen aircraft.

2.-
Secondly about avionics
Which part of avionics you are talking about
All avionics of modern aircraft are centered around
-USMS- Environment Control System Controller (ECSC), Engine and Electrical Monitoring System Electronics Unit (EEMS-EU), Digital Fuel Monitoring System Electronics Unit (DFM-EU) and Digital Hydraulics and Brake Management System Electronics Unit (DH-EU) are some of the parts of it . Fully digitlly controlled LRU and just need to hook up few laptops to cross check it in few hours.
-Mission computer- 32 bit MIL-STD-1521 and 2167A standards which is which Gen????? just google what std computer is on old aircrafts
and it performs mission oriented computations, flight management, reconfiguration / redundancy management and in-flight system self-tests . just hook up a laptop with mission profile and you tejas is ready to fly with ground test as well.
-Distributed system - (MIL-STD-1553B) open Buses
now which 4 gen aircraft like F16 F18 most advanced version use better buses???
- IFCS- Dealt above
-Accurate navigation and guidance- is realised through RLG based Inertial Navigation System (INS) with provision for INS / Global Positioning System (GPS) integration , now work is going on to get GLONNAS . What else you want for accurate navigation.
-Communication and DataLinks- Radio communications , I wont talk about much bcoz since last 20 years Radio communications have been Jam-Proof and same std , means Tejas is rt up there with latest Gen
-Datalinks - At present it uses a datalink system which is only inferior to Gripen's TIDLS or NATO-2ODL ( Remember these two are the fastest ones) . India has already given contract for IODL for all its aircraft and AWACS control command to have same fastest ODL.
-IFF- Thales will provide IFF system , after Red-Flag IAF has adopted to get same IFF on every aircraft. Just check the Thales brochure which Gen is that.
- EW suite-
EW suite which Tejas will carry is same as what F-35 will carry.
Its a jt venture btw Israel and DRDO to build state of art EW suite MAYAWI . Israel will use it on F-35 and Lca will use same.
Indian contribution is RWR based on TARANG2 and Fusion computers+Software . Israel will design FLIR+MAWS .
if israel is using it in F-35 ???? which Gen it is.
-Finally IRST
When DRDO was asked about 360 degree coverage IRST , they said its part of MK2 variant and Mk1 will not have it .( Do note F18 E/F still dont have IRST so does F16 Block52)
No detail is available ( Till then FLIR will do) . Rest assured it will be part of Mk2 variant similar to what DASS and PIRATE achieve .

Finally dont worry about AESA radar . Let the news come on Monday whether its 2052 , if it is that will settle the issue .
Just for knowledge F16Block52 still uses Mech scanned radar similar to Elta-2032 , even if it turns out 2032 it will not make it 3 Gen radar .

http://www.lca-
tejas.org/images/tejasfcsarchitecture8vt.jpg

Why do u want to explain so much??? no matter what u say only one thing would be said we indians cannot do anything right, LCA is failure and it is not indigenous i am really fed up u know hearing about this so many times, our guys explaining and the others saying it is not in a single sentence and we loosing our cool

 

[Kinetic]

I'm not trying to troll the Indians here, but you guys have to get some facts straight.

1) Marut is designed to be a 2nd gen by Kurt Tank, a German. Its Rolls-Royce engine did not allow it to come anywhere close to the design specs. It ended up flying subsonic, hardly a 2nd gen. Many 1st gen flew faster than Marut.


3) So in terms of "lessons learned" for Tejas, it's a jump from 1st to 4th gen as Indians couldn't design second gen planes nor produce first-gen turbojets for Marut. Even the first gen spare engines were made by Rolls Royce. The Chinese certified their turbofan WS-10, which is superior to Kaveri in 2006 and had 4 years of problems. In the best scenario, the Kaveri would be certified by 2012, and struggles will continue until 2015.

4) I would like to shed some light on the AMCA. SNECMA took over 12 years to fully develop the M88 for Rafale. They'd also be walking blind when developing a fifth gen engine with TVC. Moreover, the deal is not even signed and the aircraft is still under evaluation. I simply do not understand how India can induct a fifth gen in 15 years, when the only things it will learn from FGFA is how to make a mission computer, cockpit displays and navigation systems. India says to have fifth-generation jets in 2018-Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times

I'm going to refrain from making derogatory remarks.

OK not going to other issues but can you elaborate this further.....


"2) Nothing other than the frame of the Tejas makes it 4.5 gen. The only thing, which comes close is its Israeli radar. Furthermore, we don't know if Israel will sell M-2052 in quantity for future Tejas production."

* LCA designed to be stealthy as well as large number of composites, RAM, and Y-duct clean delta configuration.

* Unstable configuration with relax static stability and full degital quad FBW flight control.

* Modern radar, avionics, sensors and next generation EW systems.

* FADEC engine.

Its avionics is not even in the same league as Gripen, F-16E/F/IN and MIG-35.

What was that!!!!!!

What are the reasons behind that! What avionics you are talking about? LCA's avionics are as comparable with most of the 4.5 generation fighters. What it lacks are range and payload.

 

[gogbot]

1) Marut is designed to be a 2nd gen by Kurt Tank, a German. Its Rolls-Royce engine did not allow it to come anywhere close to the design specs. It ended up flying subsonic, hardly a 2nd gen. Many 1st gen flew faster than Marut.

You ever seen any one Touting about the Marut , we all accept it for what it is , moderately successful venture

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited [HAL] HF-24 Marut fighter-bomber was built in India, based on a design by Kurt Tank, famous for his Focke-Wulf aircraft built for Germany during WWII. The HF-24 Marut ["the wind"] represents the moderately successful attempt by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited [HAL] to design and build a jet fighter. The Marut featured a small swept wing and excellent maneuverability. It had limited combat potential because of the low engine power, and could barely reach supersonic speeds in level flight.

The first prototype flew on June 17, 1961, with a total of 147 aircraft built, including 18 two-seat HF-24 Mk 1Ts. The fighter was eventually short-closed because of an under-powered engine and a lack of foresight. The Marut continued in service with the Indian Air Force until the aircraft was decommissioned in 1985. The Marut became emblematic of the Nehruvian emphasis on industrial and economic self-reliance, deemed especially important in the realms of defence industries.

HF-24 Marut
But its's still machine produced in India . So as far as production line and assembly infrastructure it was an achievement at the time. This was back in the 60's , No one else had even attempted such a venture in south Asia. and to this day it still remains the first aircraft ever designed and produced in south Asia.

Sure we may have hired a German designer but , who wasn't hearing German engineers those days.

Last i checked the Post was-era was filled with the rest of the world picking through the German recipe book , From rockets , to jet engines and in India's case Jet aircraft.

And technically the HF-24 is still a 3nd generation aircraft , it could achieve supersonic speeds(barely, but in no fault due to design) and could carry missiles.



The Marut was very important lesson to India

Development of the HF-24 underlined the importance of developing engines as an essential precursor for fighter aircraft development. One of the consequences of the HF-24 development program was the awareness that if India did not have a strong R&D base, it would not be possible to achieve any self-reliance. This awareness resulted during the late 1950s in creation of the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) and the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) under the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DR&DO), as also the National Aeronautical Laboratories (NAL) under the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR), being the R&D organisations to back aircraft development activities in HAL.
Along with development of the HF-24 was proceeding under Kurt Tank, HAL took on the concurrent responsibility for design, development and series production of the jet trainer HJT-16 Kiran. This was the first major attempt made by HAL to design and develop a jet aircraft on its own without any foreign assistance in its design.

The HF-24 Marut served until 1985. The various development programs to enhance the operational performance of the HF-24 Marut by HAL were abandoned for one reason or the other. The Government of India concluded an agreement with the Soviet Union for the MiG-23 variable-sweep fighter to meet the Tactical Air Strike Aircraft (TASA) requirement. Four squadrons, then flying the HF-24 and Sukhoi Su-7 were re-equipped with the MiG-23BN.
Initiating an indigenous design and development of an aircraft or a helicopter requires large amount of funds. It is not feasible for HAL to initiate a major project without the firming up of specification and requirement by the domestic customer and funding by the customer/Government. HAL was not entrusted with any major new design and development project of fighter aircraft after the HF-24 (Marut). Developmental activity resumed only in the 1980’s

2) Nothing other than the frame of the Tejas makes it 4.5 gen. The only thing, which comes close is its Israeli radar. Its avionics is not even in the same league as Gripen, F-16E/F/IN and MIG-35. Furthermore, we don't know if Israel will sell M-2052 in quantity for future Tejas production.

If i may , i would like to take some liberty by quoting Wikipedia.
On the generations of Planes. I only intend to present my side of the argument, Your free to make your own choice.

First generation jet fighters

The early aircraft of this group entered production during the closing years of World War II with planform similar to their piston counterparts. Later transonic aircraft, such as the MiG-15, are sometimes referred to as a "second generation" and the end of this generation is very loose.

Second generation jet fighters

The beginning of this generation is blurry, but aircraft that were designed for missile armament and supersonic speed are generally considered to be at least second generation.

India's unsatisfactory "HAL HF-24 Marut" falls into this category.

Third generation jet fighters

Third generation aircraft were based on the wrong assumption that air to air missiles would replace dogfighting, and many were initially built without internal gun armament.

Fourth generation jet fighters

Fourth generation fighters had a renewed focus on maneuverability and many were again designed with an internal gun armament.

4.5th generation jet fighters

This "half generation" is a term defined by the United States Government as fourth generation aircraft that have vastly improved avionics (digital fly-by-wire), sensors (Active Electronically Scanned Array radars), high speed data links and the ability to carry the latest weapons. Some sources refer to some members of this group as fourth or 4++ generation aircraft instead.

Now being a 4++ aircraft to put it simply, largely depends on the gadgets within the plane.

So the US classifies a plane 4.5 gen if it has:

(1): Digital fly-by-wire

Since the Tejas is a "relaxed static stability" design, it is equipped with a quadruplex digital fly-by-wire flight control system to ease handling by the pilot.

(2):Electronically Scanned Array radars

Due to delay in development of MMR, government have come out with the collaboration with IAI for development of Radar the sensor for the new radar is supposed to be EL/M-2052 AESA from Elta and the remaining item and software will be combination of MMR and IAI developed products. Varadarajan, (Director — LRDE) has said that LRDE has initiated development of active electronically scanning array radar for airborne applications. And that these radars will be integrated with Tejas light combat aircraft-Mark II by 2012-13.

(3):High speed data links

India's Light Combat Aircraft tests its teeth

Each aircraft, from the time it started up, was being monitored in detail, the data transmitting live from the aircraft over a high-speed data link

Now i know for a fact that the IAF would reject any plane that did not have this feature. But just to make sure, i can back it up. I went and found an article that made specific reference to high speed data links.

(4):The ability to carry the latest weapons

Originally intended to serve as an air superiority aircraft with a secondary "dumb bomb" ground-attack role, the flexibility of this design approach has permitted a variety of guided air-to-surface and anti-shipping weapons to be integrated for more well-rounded multirole and multimission capabilities.

All weapons are carried on one or more of seven hardpoints with total capacity of greater than 4,000 kg: three stations under each wing and one on the under-fuselage centreline. There is also an eighth, offset station beneath the port-side intake trunk which can carry a variety of pods (FLIR, IRST, laser rangefinder/designator, or reconnaissance), as can the centreline under-fuselage station and inboard pairs of wing stations.

(Additional 4++ features)

(5):Trust vectoring and super cruise

In September 2008, it was announced that the Kaveri would not be ready in time for the Tejas, and that an in-production powerplant would have to be selected The ADA plans to issue a request for proposal (RFP) for a more powerful engine in the 95 to 100 kilonewton (kN) (21,000–23,000 lbf) range. The contenders are likely to be the Eurojet EJ200 and the General Electric F414. The Eurojet EJ200 propulsion offer has thrust-vectoring.

This would be the case if the Euro-fighter is chosen for the MMRCA contract.

If However the Dassault Rafale is chosen

ADA awarded a contract to SNECMA for technical assistance in working out the Kaveri's problems.

Dassault has also offered to fit the Kaveri engine into the Rafale, which, if chosen, which would greatly improve commonality with the Tejas aircraft that will enter service into the IAF by 2010. India and France have recently agreed to "go beyond a buyer-seller relationship".[

If Dassault and SCHEMA can work with GTRE to help finish the Kaveri

Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister M Natarajan said nearly 90 to 93 per cent of the expected performance had been realised and the government had recently floated an expression of interest to seek partners to move the programme further(that partner would be SCHEMA)

Then the Project goals of the KAveri can finally be achieved.

The Kaveri is a low-bypass-ratio (BPR) afterburning turbofan engine featuring a six-stage core high-pressure (HP) compressor with variable inlet guide vanes (IGVs), a three-stage low-pressure (LP) compressor with transonic blading, an annular combustion chamber, and cooled single-stage HP and LP turbines. The development model is fitted with an advanced convergent-divergent ("con-di") variable nozzle, but the GTRE wants to fit production Tejas aircraft with an axisymmetric, multi-axis thrust-vectoring nozzle to further enhance the LCA's agility

The general arrangement of the Kaveri is very similar to other contemporary combat engines, such as the Eurojet EJ200, General Electric F414, and Snecma M88. At present, the peak turbine inlet temperature is designed to be a little lower than its peers, but this is to enable the engine to be flat-rated to very high ambient temperatures. Consequently, the bypass ratio that can presently be supported, even with a modest fan pressure ratio, is only about 0.16:1, which means the engine is a "'leaky' turbojet" like the F404.

The Kaveri engine has been specifically designed for the demanding Indian operating environment, which ranges from hot desert to the highest mountain range in the world. The GTRE's design envisions achieving a fan pressure ratio of 4:1 and an overall pressure ratio of 27:1, which will permit the Tejas to "supercruise" (cruise supersonically without the use of the afterburner). The Kaveri is a variable-cycle, flat-rated engine and has 13% higher thrust than the General Electric F404-GE-F2J3 engines equipping the LCA prototypes.

These features are just the cherry on late but good cake.
To all those critics of the Kaveri, India can just choose the typhoon and get the EJ2000, Which will give the Tejas both super cruise and trust vectoring, with out a shadow of a doubt.

3) So in terms of "lessons learned" for Tejas, it's a jump from 1st to 4th gen as Indians couldn't design second gen planes nor produce first-gen turbojets for Marut. Even the first gen spare engines were made by Rolls Royce.

India never attempted to produce its own engine, for the marut
You make it seem as though we had tried and failed , when we never tried at all.

The Chinese certified their turbofan WS-10, which is superior to Kaveri in 2006

You base this on what. They are both not even the same class of engine. One is designed to be fitted into a light aircraft and the other to be fitted in to a medium sized aircraft.

and had 4 years of problems.

Certified and problems and not inducted. And you make it seem as though China has done so well.

By no means am i trying to slander China;s Engine , but i am underlining the basic fact that if One wishes to tout superiority, he has to ensure his own house is in order first

People tell me its fixed now , and showed me pictured of it fitted onto the J-11 . But it is now 2010.

We shall see how that progresses.

In the best scenario, the Kaveri would be certified by 2012, and struggles will continue until 2015.

You have no information to make that claim , but if you do i will be glad to hear it.
In fact that statement only shows your lack of information regarding the Kaveri.

but at least your better than the average chap , who keeps saying the kaveri is a failure

4) I would like to shed some light on the AMCA. SNECMA took over 12 years to fully develop the M88 for Rafale. They'd also be walking blind when developing a fifth gen engine with TVC. Moreover, the deal is not even signed and the aircraft is still under evaluation. I simply do not understand how India can induct a fifth gen in 15 years, when the only things it will learn from FGFA is how to make a mission computer, cockpit displays and navigation systems. India says to have fifth-generation jets in 2018-Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times

Am i to understand , that India despite working on the project with a 50-50 share of data and expertise.

Enough so that the FGFA will be produced in India from Nut to engine.

That it could not possible learn a dam. Or mean a quantum jump in technology.

All this while , it stands as a tall example that China built its aviation sector by simply producing copies of jets its already bought.(exception being the J-10).

That's one huge bit of self Hypocrisy.

This is even so considering India is not buying the FGFA , it is involved in the process of making it , it has 50-50 ToT(admittedly in India's favor) and it will produce the entire plane in India.And you still cant see how this in anyway means India can learn and produce its own 5th generation aircraft any easier ?

 

[shaktiman2010]

Well great news to hear, but 2025 is a long time to watch, I hope ,it will not go in tejas way!

What you mean?

Stop ranting baseless stuff.

 

[shaktiman2010]

What are the reasons behind that! What avionics you are talking about? LCA's avionics are as comparable with most of the 4.5 generation fighters. What it lacks are range and payload.

Your comments don't make sense.

Can you show me one aircraft in the world, in light combat aircraft category, where Tejas is inferior to it?

You should do some research before claiming baseless stuff.

If you are comparing a home-made 85mm mortar gun with imported 155mm gun and claiming that your 155mm is better, then you are comparing apples and oranges. You should compare 85mm gun with a 85mm gun only.

 

[shaktiman2010]

Let the trolls keep ranting that LCA is delayed, Kaveri is delayed.

Which country on earth, completed 4th Gen. aircraft trials within 5 years? Zilch. All took more than 10 years when they did it first time.

I think India has done even better under sanctions.

You need sensible people to discuss with. Not trolls.

In my opinion, if DRDO can achieve 72KN, then achieving that extra 10KN won't take more than 5 years. And, its worth investing further than quitting your R&D efforts by going for import option.