IAF in love with 'Swiss Bird', fate of India's own Basic Trainer hangs in balance

[OrionHunter]

thori thori piya karo

Main peetha nahi hun...lekin zabardasthi pilayee gayee thi!

 

[Imran Khan]

Main peetha nahi hun...lekin zabardasthi pilayee gayee thi!

haan feeder main daal ker

 

[OrionHunter]

haan feeder main daal ker

Thussi baby feeder wichon whiskey peende ho? LOL!!!

 

[sancho]

As far as Basic flight trainers are concerned, HAL had floated it's initiatives since 1993

That's the point Sandy! All HAL did in this field for the last 20 years, where they actually had no competition were "initiatives" which ended up in some studies and mock up's for basic trainers. What on earth stopped them to build a propper prototype version for flight tests? If they can go on with the project now without IAF, they could have done at least the prototype development alone earlier as well. Do you honestly think MoD would let IAF reject a HTT40 that is already in prototype stage?
HAL knew at best what the situation of the Deepak trainer was and they should had came up with a solution to replace them, not only "initiatives". IF they had acted in the same manner as they are now, by saying they will keep the project going on, even without IAF, we would have seen a prototype flying for years now, but HAL didn't They waited for a propper order and then wanted to start work, because they knew they had no competition back then and now that inaction hits back at them!

 

[MilSpec]

That's the point Sandy! All HAL did in this field for the last 20 years, where they actually had no competition were "initiatives" which ended up in some studies and mock up's for basic trainers. What on earth stopped them to build a propper prototype version for flight tests? If they can go on with the project now without IAF, they could have done at least the prototype development alone earlier as well. Do you honestly think MoD would let IAF reject a HTT40 that is already in prototype stage?

Annual Operating Plan (AOP) approved by MoD, This consists of Capital Expenditure (Capex) and Operating Expenditure and Maintainence budget.

Capex- is the money that is needed for adding capability such as a new hanger, or a new machine or a new workcell, in other words Capital budget,, In Op Exp cost running the organisation and additions and attirations of workforce, maintainence is self explanatory.
For the longest time it was customary by the MoD to bring in yesman in top management position who would accept capex handed down to them make the best out of it. The casualty was always R&D and training.
Finally in last 5-6 years some of the mid-managers of the 2000's and late 90's have risen to higer-ups and are now fighting tooth and nail for Capex and oprn Exp budgets. This is a new trend, thus I think MoD should be positive and give HAL a longer leash and at the same time very closely scrutinize their progress. Give them better control of thier direction and penalize them heavily for under performance.

HAL knew at best what the situation of the Deepak trainer was and they should had came up with a solution to replace them, not only "initiatives". IF they had acted in the same manner as they are now, by saying they will keep the project going on, even without IAF, we would have seen a prototype flying for years now, but HAL didn't They waited for a propper order and then wanted to start work, because they knew they had no competition back then and now that inaction hits back at them!

Solutions dont come for free!

Unfortunately, this situation of trainers have been brought to the attn of MoD since the 90's and MoD has sat on those request ensuring that a foreign vendor had to be brought in. Bulding mockups is simple and inexpensive, but building a prototype needs money, people and process. We do not half *** it and call it a prototype as others. MoD with a good connivance of IAF has ensure these initiatives are quashed...

 

[sancho]

Bulding mockups is simple and inexpensive, but building a prototype needs money, people and process.

And MoD won't release the money now either because IAF won't order it, but still HAL is claiming to build a prototype for the first flight till next year. So when HAL has the money and rescources now even without MoDs help, what stopped them to develop the prototype for the last at least 10 years???

 

[MilSpec]

And MoD won't release the money now either because IAF won't order it, but still HAL is claiming to build a prototype for the first flight till next year. So when HAL has the money and rescources now even without MoDs help, what stopped them to develop the prototype for the last at least 10 years???

Already answered in previous post.

 

[sancho]

Already answered in previous post.

You didn't, you just blamed MoD again, but didn't explained what HAL was waiting for. Please leave out MoD, IAF or others out for a moment and just look at HAL and tell us why they couldn't develop a prototype for all these years?

 

[MilSpec]

You didn't, you just blamed MoD again, but didn't explained what HAL was waiting for. Please leave out MoD, IAF or others out for a moment and just look at HAL and tell us why they couldn't develop a prototype for all these years?

What stopped HAL from developing a prototype for Prop plane- Money!

Weak leadership in HAL handpicked by MoD. Unwillingness of appropriating funds for development for feasibility analysis, hiring additional managers and engineers for workcell for developmental work.

In my view this stance of HAL is a new one, reflecting change in attitude due to influx of fresh blood in the ranks. Looks like HAL has done it's FA on this and want's to hedge it's money on this project. This is a distinct change in attitude and I absolutely am thankfull for it. Employees of HAL have always taken pride in thier work, it's time that corporate management put it's weight behind the convictions of the engineers and technicians who drive this.

As far as my bias goes for HAL, I do concede to that. And yes I do blame MoD and forces for most of failures in the model of indigenous development, because they are primarily responsible for ensuring the success of companies such as HAL, OFB, BDL etc. If MoD and IAF are confident that the root cause of poor indigenous aeronautical development has been HAL, then they should close all HAL complex's, fire all thier employees and let IAF take over all the assets and do a better job. I will be more than happy if MoD/IAF takes such steps.

 

[Indischer]

Main peetha nahi hun...lekin zabardasthi pilayee gayee thi!

Are you female?

 

[sancho]

If MoD and IAF are confident that the root cause of poor indigenous aeronautical development has been HAL, then they should close all HAL complex's, fire all thier employees and let IAF take over all the assets and do a better job. I will be more than happy if MoD/IAF takes such steps.

Even IF they would think so, do they have an alternative to HAL? No, so they would have to stick with HAL anyway and try to fix problems and improve performance. They however don't think so, which is obvious by their constant support of HAL against Dassault and Reliance for example, which many of us criticises too. The point however is, denying HAL's mistakes and putting the blame only at others won't help anybody! Not HAL, not IAF, nor the reputation of Indian aero industry. We have to learn from mistakes and when it comes to the trainer sector, HAL undeniably did several of them and has to focus everything to fix them and not act stuborn. They have to let HTT 40 go and fix IJT before that goes away too, just like they should keep focusing in the helicopter sector and the projects they already have their, instead of diverting into new once (IMRH, VIP helicopter).

 

[MilSpec]

Even IF they would think so, do they have an alternative to HAL? No, so they would have to stick with HAL anyway and try to fix problems and improve performance. They however don't think so, which is obvious by their constant support of HAL against Dassault and Reliance for example, which many of us criticises too. The point however is, denying HAL's mistakes and putting the blame only at others won't help anybody! Not HAL, not IAF, nor the reputation of Indian aero industry. We have to learn from mistakes and when it comes to the trainer sector, HAL undeniably did several of them and has to focus everything to fix them and not act stuborn. They have to let HTT 40 go and fix IJT before that goes away too, just like they should keep focusing in the helicopter sector and the projects they already have their, instead of diverting into new once (IMRH, VIP helicopter).

Ofcourse they do, Rosoboron, RAC, Dassault, Boeing, Lockheed martin, EADS, they can buy wherever they want, close down HAL, if they think that would serve the interest of their security needs. I am not putting HAL's shortcommings on any one else. they have to deal with it. But portrayal of IAF and MoD as Pious pioneers in integrity and efficiency is laughable.

And as far as stubborness of HAL is concerned, let MoD and IAF take them on head on. Now I do know people here love to bash the IJT, without ever mentioning that oversight on IJT is provided directly by IAF.

 

[sancho]

Ofcourse they do, Rosoboron, RAC, Dassault, Boeing, Lockheed martin, EADS, they can buy wherever they want, close down HAL

These are not alternatives to HAL as Indias leading aero company and that's the problem too. We are dependent on HAL only and whenever HAL doesn't deliver, Indian aero sector is stalled!
So closing HAL is not possible, but HAL and even more so DRDO needs improvements.

But portrayal of IAF and MoD as Pious pioneers in integrity and efficiency is laughable.

Nobody did that, but what more than free hand, no competition and more than a decade time can you expect from MoD and IAF to deliver a basic and an intermediate trainer? So when HAL is not able to deliver with all this support, it is nothing but logical that at some point there must be break and a re-evaluation of the situation. Nothing else happened in the basic trainer field and I am very worried about the same to happen in the IJT field to.

Now I do know people here love to bash the IJT, without ever mentioning that oversight on IJT is provided directly by IAF.

We had discussed that earlier, but you still avoid the fact that HAL decided to go for the Russian engine, not IAF, not MoD and that's the main problem now.

 

[Nishan_101]

Better for IAF is to look only in EU basic, intermediate and Advance jet trainers instead of local ones. More over Rafael is where...

 

[MilSpec]

These are not alternatives to HAL as Indias leading aero company and that's the problem too. We are dependent on HAL only and whenever HAL doesn't deliver, Indian aero sector is stalled!
So closing HAL is not possible, but HAL and even more so DRDO needs improvements.

Who is approving HAL's budget? ministry of coal..... It is funny that HAL needs improvements but MoD doesn't. Show me one MoD transaction in last 10 years which has been on time.... One transaction!

Nobody did that, but what more than free hand, no competition and more than a decade time can you expect from MoD and IAF to deliver a basic and an intermediate trainer? So when HAL is not able to deliver with all this support, it is nothing but logical that at some point there must be break and a re-evaluation of the situation. Nothing else happened in the basic trainer field and I am very worried about the same to happen in the IJT field to.

And who will do this "re-evaluation", MoD?

We had discussed that earlier, but you still avoid the fact that HAL decided to go for the Russian engine, not IAF, not MoD and that's the main problem now.

I have maintained this throughout that, IJT has direct oversight from IAF, apart from that main delay in this project was caused due to IAF's choice of NPO Saturn engine, Not HAL's first choice, which was Larzac 04-20. This came as a preference of the Oversight committee to select cheaper engine which was known ahead of time that won't be ready until 2006 to begin with.

Now If HAL stuck to the Larzac 0420 or even the Al-222, then people would again complain, why is HAL not complying to IAF's directives. So it's better for HAL to stick with it's convictions this time. Because the same detractors down the line will complain that HAL can't produce a prop plane.

If there are obstacles with production delays, tooling, technology deficit, i will wholeheartedly accept the blame for HAL, but laying your head in the butcher block for IAF and MoD's bumbling decision making skills. thats something i will disagree to throughout.