IAF in love with 'Swiss Bird', fate of India's own Basic Trainer hangs in balance

[Abingdonboy]

@sandy_3126 sir, what product does HAL or any Indian company for that matter, have comparable to the AW-101? Diddly squat...IF HAL had such a product then your points would be valid and one could question the going abroad for a Head of State helo.

 

[MilSpec]

@sandy_3126 sir, what product does HAL or any Indian company for that matter, have comparable to the AW-101? Diddly squat...IF HAL had such a product then your points would be valid and one could question the going abroad for a Head of State helo.

From IAF's own logistic's argument, Why not use Mil MI 17 V5

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

India CAN, but for various reasons HAL wasn't interested in developing the BTT.

Then there has got to be something wrong with the quality of India's indigenous technology.

Maybe that is the reason why they are outsourcing it.

No offense it is weird that india that has experience in developing various equipment can't develop something like the Argentinian IA 63 PAMPA/II basic/intermediate Jet trainer.

The PC-21 is the best trainer by far

 

[MilSpec]

HAL needs to be booted in the back. It is their philosophy to be lazy and do no work, when the situation becomes desperate they lobby the govt to stall deals from abroad and worse, their own projects are never on time. The IJT has been in development for more than 10 years- their original commitment was 4 years. Fat luck working with them.

Lets try and view our airforce with the same objectivity? what was the timeline on Mrca procurement? how many years are they running late with that? Wait a second, Air force cannot do anything wrong, can they now?

 

[sancho]

Shouldn't it?

Of course not, because they are not important, the defence of the country is!

Has IAF ever given HAL any incentives for looking out for the nation's interest.

Sorry, but that's plain wrong and you know that, when it comes to HAL you are still biased. The simple fact that IAF offered the basic trainer replacement to HAL without a competition alone proves you wrong (and they did the same with IJT)!
The procurement of a foreign trainer came only because the issues with HALs current trainer and the failure of HAL to develop a replacement for so many years. This actually is one of the few fields where HAL shouldn't face any competition at all, but incompetence of their own opened the way for foreign companies again. So instead of complaining about IAF, MoD and everybody else, HAL should be straight and admit that they messed it up big times and put all the focus now on getting it right with the IJT! That is the only and as well the fastest way for HAL to gain reputation within the IAF as well as international markets again, not to act as a stuborn child and trying to develop a new basic trainer that nobody wants or needs, with the only aim to prove something.

HAL needs to stand it's ground...

True, but based on arms and techs that are needed by Indian forces and for the defence of the country, exports and international markets to gain reputation are secondary!
That's why Dhruv, Rudra, LCH, IJT and LCA, FGFA and MTA are crucial, while a HTT40, IMRH, dreams of an advanced trainer are useless.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Lets try and view our airforce with the same objectivity? what was the timeline on Mrca procurement? how many years are they running late with that? Wait a second, Air force cannot do anything wrong, can they now?

Whether IAF can do anything wrong or not, you cannot absolve HAL and their smug attitude of this. If you are faulting the IAF, that's because you haven't watching events on this issue closely. HAL has known the status of the Deepaks for decades because it has been maintaining them. Along with AJT, the need for basic trainers has been doing the rounds for over a decade.
HAL never seriously pushed proposals around this at all. And when the reliability of the Deepaks fell so low that they had to ground the entire fleet, that's when IAF went to pilatus. Lemme ask you, what is the need for an intermediate trainer when the basic trainers are in such a big mess. HAL has been pushing the IJT, why didn't they start a program for the BJT 15 years ago like they did for the IJT? Besides, why should the IAF believe them? They never delivered anything on time and you don't want crucial training to stop because of them?

 

[Luftwaffe]

The PC-21 is the best trainer by far

Indeed it is and it is cheap priced. Lol even serbians make a good intermediate trainer Utva Lasta 95.

Utva Lasta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[sancho]

How many helicopter platforms does the IAF plan to operate? and the motivation behind sourcing the the Aug West was very clear.

Different plattforms, in different classes, for different roles! Does IAF use different medium class helicopters other than the Mi 8/17? No! Neither are they using other helicopters than the Dhruv in the light to medium class, or want to do so. Even in the LUH and combat helicopter classes, they only procure foreign stuff, because HAL has nothing comparable to offer at this point (although I still think we don't need foreign combat helicopters if HAL can speed up LCH developments, which is another field where HAL can prove itself btw).
So buying 2 different basic trainers for the same class and the same role, with HALs trainer being that far away from being inducted, makes it very logical that IAF don't want this issue and ACTUALLY, shows a steady strategy of them in the procurement process.
And please buddy, don't get so low with these corruption accusations, only to make a point for HAL. Neither has the VIP issue anything to do with HAL, nor is it so far even proven if there was corruption in the process, or just from AW to agents to get into the market. So lets not compare apples with oranges

 

[Abingdonboy]

Then there has got to be something wrong with the quality of India's indigenous technology.

Maybe that is the reason why they are outsourcing it.

No, it's nothing to do with quality. The HTT-40 is simply not ready to date and the IAF desperately needed a BTT so their hand was forced and they had to go abroad.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

Indeed it is and it is cheap priced. Lol even serbians make a good intermediate trainer Utva Lasta 95.

Utva Lasta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How much is the PC-21 exactly for?

No, it's nothing to do with quality. The HTT-40 is simply not ready to date and the IAF desperately needed a BTT so their hand was forced and they had to go abroad.

World’s biggest arms importer, india wants to buy local ny times.com

 

[Imran Khan]

My bad!!! Deleted!

thori thori piya karo

 

[sancho]

From IAF's own logistic's argument, Why not use Mil MI 17 V5

Because that are 2 different versions (normal utility and VIP) and the proposed Mi 17 VIP didn't met the requirements, which is why the Eurocopter and later the AW helicopters were chosen.
The normal Dhruv and the Rudra are also 2 different versions of the same helicopter, but if the Rudra wouldn't meet the requirement, it wouldn't be inducted either and a competition would be opened, as simple as that.

 

[Abingdonboy]

From IAF's own logistic's argument, Why not use Mil MI 17 V5

For Head of State transport it is not adequate as far as safety goes- all members of the Mi-8 and Mi-17 families make use of only a single-channel hydraulics-control system under which the hydraulic actuators of all four control circuits are mounted in a single hydraulic package on the main gearbox, together with other parts of hydraulic system. In all Western (and HAL-built) twin-engined helicopters they make use of a dual-channel hydraulics-control system, on top of that the AW-101 has 3 engines for added safety.

For a HoS helo the extra cost of the AW-101/S-92 is more than justified.

 

[Luftwaffe]

How much is the PC-21 exactly for?

For the best product its around $9m I don't see it expensive since it is intermediate to advance can be used for COIN and is the latest product.

 

[MilSpec]

Whether IAF can do anything wrong or not, you cannot absolve HAL and their smug attitude of this. If you are faulting the IAF, that's because you haven't watching events on this issue closely. HAL has known the status of the Deepaks for decades because it has been maintaining them. Along with AJT, the need for basic trainers has been doing the rounds for over a decade.
HAL never seriously pushed proposals around this at all. And when the reliability of the Deepaks fell so low that they had to ground the entire fleet, that's when IAF went to pilatus. Lemme ask you, what is the need for an intermediate trainer when the basic trainers are in such a big mess. HAL has been pushing the IJT, why didn't they start a program for the BJT 15 years ago like they did for the IJT? Besides, why should the IAF believe them? They never delivered anything on time and you don't want crucial training to stop because of them?

HAL's AOP is unfortunately decided by the MoD and not just HAL Board. As far as Basic flight trainers are concerned, HAL had floated it's initiatives since 1993, which has been consistently stonewalled by IAF. HAL had also floated the project for re-engining the Marut in 1989, but that too was stonewalled by the IAF. The most important would be an CAG audit of Air Hq Staff Req's for LCA tejas's role, that would be a good start. HAL has flagged everything from Mig21 FL cockpit issues to Mig 27 Lgu problems long before they became real problems, and IAF has don't nothing but ensured institutional inaction to buy solutions from Russia,Kazakhstan and Ukraine.

HAL can deliver everything it needs on time, but it is on many occasions intentionally stonewalled, coerced, and outright neglected to ensure it will not cut into procurement deals. It's high time we let HAL do what it wants to do, if you want them to come into their own.

If you want better product lines from HAL, make them independent. Let it's own board do what it needs to do.

For Head of State transport it is not adequate as far as safety goes- all members of the Mi-8 and Mi-17 families make use of only a single-channel hydraulics-control system under which the hydraulic actuators of all four control circuits are mounted in a single hydraulic package on the main gearbox, together with other parts of hydraulic system. In all Western (and HAL-built) twin-engined helicopters they make use of a dual-channel hydraulics-control system, on top of that the AW-101 has 3 engines for added safety.

For a HoS helo the extra cost of the AW-101/S-92 is more than justified.

I don't know how the hydraulic circuit on either works, bit I would like to know more about this. Can you point me in the right direction to read more.

The normal Dhruv and the Rudra are also 2 different versions of the same helicopter, but if the Rudra wouldn't meet the requirement, it wouldn't be inducted either and a competition would be opened, as simple as that.

Exactly! let HAL make what ever it want's if it doesn't meet the requirements disqualify it. Simple.