IAF bombshell: Difficult to tackle China-Pak threat

[Omega007]

Like I said,forget about sending MKI,Rafale et al;instead send a few BGVs targetting the air strips and parked aircrafts and get it done with.
And expect same from PAF as well.

 

[Superboy]

yeah by that time we will have PAK-FA and rafale

Block 3 enters production by 2016. Rafale and PAK-FA won't be ready by then.

 

[ni8mare]

Block 3 enters production by 2016. Rafale and PAK-FA won't be ready by then.

OK

 

[NKVD]

You would be an idiot to compare Iraq vs USAF wrt PAF vs IAF... According to your own pals n even the Iraqis.. they had downgraded migs with crappy radar,no BVR,no AWACs or other force multipl... assets... and their pilots were untrained... not to forget the massive no of allied,US aircraft etc... and do twll us which "SAMs" did the Iraqis operate?

Would you like to compare PAF vs IAF kills in the past wars now? embarassing..



Oh okay fanboyy...

Hahaha champion you still Not answered My Questions about F-15 with 18 Sqm Rcs is among the most successful modern fighters, with over 100 aerial combat victories with no losses in dogfights According to the USAF, its F-15Cs had 34 confirmed kills of Iraqi aircraft during the 1991 Gulf War, mostly by missile fire: five MiG-29 "Fulcrums", two MiG-25 "Foxbats", eight MiG-23 "Floggers", two MiG-21 "Fishbeds", two Su-25 "Frogfoots", four Su-22 "Fitters", one Su-7, six Mirage F1s, one Il-76 cargo plane, one Pilatus PC-9 trainer, and two Mi-8 helicopters,,n 1979–81, during Israeli raids against Palestinian factions based in Lebanon, F-15As claimed downing 13 Syrian MiG-21 "Fishbeds" and two Syrian MiG-25 "Foxbats", the latter being the aircraft the F-15 was designed to kill. Syrians have confirmed the loss of 11 MiG-21s and two MiG-25s and claimed downing five F-15s(three by MiG-21s and two by MiG-25s). Plus two F-15s were downed by SAM.[44] Israeli F-15As and Bs participated as escorts in Operation Opera and served during the 1982 Lebanon War. During the latter, Israeli F-15s shot down 40 Syrian jet fighters (23 MiG-21 "Fishbeds" and 17 MiG-23 "Floggers") and one Syrian SA.342L Gazelle helicopter
Royal Saudi Air Force F-15C pilots reportedly shot down two Iranian Air ForceF-4E Phantom IIs in a skirmish in June 1984

The problem with Rcs can can be corrected by by Ram coatings And Sophisticated Ecm, Rwcs, Improving Avionics Eg
Due to special coatings Mig-29K radar reflecting surface is 4-5 times smaller than of basic MiG-29. RCS to about 0.60-0.75 m2
Russian stealth researchers have developed materials and techniques that can reduce the head-on radar cross-section (RCS) of a Sukhoi Su-35 fighter by an order of magnitude, halving the range at which hostile radars can detect it. The research group - working with Sukhoi, but based at the Institute for Theoretical and Applied Electromagnetics (ITAE) at the Russian Academy of Sciences in Moscow - has performed more than 100 hours of testing on a reduced-RCS Su-35 and has also experimented with the use of plasmas - ionized gases - to reduce RCS.

US and European aircraft manufacturers have used specially developed materials to reduce the RCS of basically non-stealthy aircraft for many years. Notable examples include the Have Glass and Have Glass II modifications to the F-16. However, Russian work in this area was undisclosed until ITAE researchers presented a paper to a conference on stealth in London in late October 2003, which was organized by the International Quality and Productivity Centre.

According to the ITAE presentation, Russian researchers have developed mathematical tools that can calculate scattering from complex configurations, such as an Su-35 carrying a full external missile load, by breaking them down into small facets and adding the effects of edge waves and surface currents. The antennas are modelled separately and then are added to the entire RCS picture.

"A problem of huge size" is how the researchers describe the Su-35 inlet, with a straight duct that provides direct visibility to the entire face of the engine compressor. The basic solution has been to apply ferro-magnetic radar absorbent material (RAM) to the compressor face and to the inlet duct walls, but this involves challenges. The researchers note: the material cannot be allowed to constrict airflow or impede the operation of anti-icing systems and must withstand high-speed airflows and temperatures up to 200°C. The ITAE team has developed and tested coating materials that meet these standards. A layer of RAM between 0.7mm and 1.4mm thick is applied to the ducts and a 0.5mm coating is applied to the front stages of the low-pressure compressor, using a robotic spray system. The result is a 10-15dB reduction in the RCS contribution from the inlets.

Same goes with Sukhoi-30 mki Indian Scientist Already start Upgrading this process "Super 30" upgrade Secondly
I think it's really irrelevant to talk about stealth with respect to RCS these days. Fifth generation aircrafts have Infra red detection systems which track the infrared trail a fighter jet leaves behind. RCS can be reduced by RAM or jammers, but reducing infrared trail will take a lot more tech.

Currently Indian engineers are working to reduce the infrared signature for thrust settings in the Su 30 MKI.

 

[NKVD]

Block 3 enters production by 2016. Rafale and PAK-FA won't be ready by then.

Production of block 2 is started this year and it will continue till 2016 so that means you a have limited number of Block 2 inducted Please can you tell me what is the production rate of jf-17 per year

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Hahaha champion you still Not answered My Questions about F-15 with 18 Sqm Rcs is among the most successful modern fighters, with over 100 aerial combat victories with no losses in dogfights According to the USAF, its F-15Cs had 34 confirmed kills of Iraqi aircraft during the 1991 Gulf War, mostly by missile fire: five MiG-29 "Fulcrums", two MiG-25 "Foxbats", eight MiG-23 "Floggers", two MiG-21 "Fishbeds", two Su-25 "Frogfoots", four Su-22 "Fitters", one Su-7, six Mirage F1s, one Il-76 cargo plane, one Pilatus PC-9 trainer, and two Mi-8 helicopters,,n 1979–81, during Israeli raids against Palestinian factions based in Lebanon, F-15As claimed downing 13 Syrian MiG-21 "Fishbeds" and two Syrian MiG-25 "Foxbats", the latter being the aircraft the F-15 was designed to kill. Syrians have confirmed the loss of 11 MiG-21s and two MiG-25s and claimed downing five F-15s(three by MiG-21s and two by MiG-25s). Plus two F-15s were downed by SAM.[44] Israeli F-15As and Bs participated as escorts in Operation Opera and served during the 1982 Lebanon War. During the latter, Israeli F-15s shot down 40 Syrian jet fighters (23 MiG-21 "Fishbeds" and 17 MiG-23 "Floggers") and one Syrian SA.342L Gazelle helicopter
Royal Saudi Air Force F-15C pilots reportedly shot down two Iranian Air ForceF-4E Phantom IIs in a skirmish in June 1984

The problem with Rcs can can be corrected by by Ram coatings And Sophisticated Ecm, Rwcs, Improving Avionics Eg
Due to special coatings Mig-29K radar reflecting surface is 4-5 times smaller than of basic MiG-29. RCS to about 0.60-0.75 m2
Russian stealth researchers have developed materials and techniques that can reduce the head-on radar cross-section (RCS) of a Sukhoi Su-35 fighter by an order of magnitude, halving the range at which hostile radars can detect it. The research group - working with Sukhoi, but based at the Institute for Theoretical and Applied Electromagnetics (ITAE) at the Russian Academy of Sciences in Moscow - has performed more than 100 hours of testing on a reduced-RCS Su-35 and has also experimented with the use of plasmas - ionized gases - to reduce RCS.

US and European aircraft manufacturers have used specially developed materials to reduce the RCS of basically non-stealthy aircraft for many years. Notable examples include the Have Glass and Have Glass II modifications to the F-16. However, Russian work in this area was undisclosed until ITAE researchers presented a paper to a conference on stealth in London in late October 2003, which was organized by the International Quality and Productivity Centre.

According to the ITAE presentation, Russian researchers have developed mathematical tools that can calculate scattering from complex configurations, such as an Su-35 carrying a full external missile load, by breaking them down into small facets and adding the effects of edge waves and surface currents. The antennas are modelled separately and then are added to the entire RCS picture.

"A problem of huge size" is how the researchers describe the Su-35 inlet, with a straight duct that provides direct visibility to the entire face of the engine compressor. The basic solution has been to apply ferro-magnetic radar absorbent material (RAM) to the compressor face and to the inlet duct walls, but this involves challenges. The researchers note: the material cannot be allowed to constrict airflow or impede the operation of anti-icing systems and must withstand high-speed airflows and temperatures up to 200°C. The ITAE team has developed and tested coating materials that meet these standards. A layer of RAM between 0.7mm and 1.4mm thick is applied to the ducts and a 0.5mm coating is applied to the front stages of the low-pressure compressor, using a robotic spray system. The result is a 10-15dB reduction in the RCS contribution from the inlets.

Same goes with Sukhoi-30 mki Indian Scientist Already start Upgrading this process "Super 30" upgrade Secondly
I think it's really irrelevant to talk about stealth with respect to RCS these days. Fifth generation aircrafts have Infra red detection systems which track the infrared trail a fighter jet leaves behind. RCS can be reduced by RAM or jammers, but reducing infrared trail will take a lot more tech.

Currently Indian engineers are working to reduce the infrared signature for thrust settings in the Su 30 MKI.

Kid.... i had a long discussion with a russian members on the same thing... F-15+F-16s shooting shitloads of iraqi,Syrian,Serbian etc migs n sus... you wouldnt have seen it...

So after reading this ... all i can say is... do some research kiddo... comparing USAF +Allies vs Iraqis is probably the dumbest thing you can do to prove anythinf..

Production of block 2 is started this year and it will continue till 2016 so that means you a have limited number of Block 2 inducted Please can you tell me what is the production rate of jf-17 per year

You will probably induct the LCA in 2015 (likely as your press quoted) ... while JF-17 Block II is already in production...

By 2016 we will see Block II... and maybe more blocks after every 50 aircrafts (Airchiefs interview)...

 

[Superboy]

PAF has much better combat experience than IAF does. PAF is in constant action carrying out strike and close support missions against Taliban. IAF has not seen combat since 1999. Furthermore, PAF and IAF are narrowing their fighter strength gap. 150 JFT to 270 Su-30MKI is a much better numbers game compared to 1965 when IAF had 5 times as many fighters as PAF did.

Production of block 2 is started this year and it will continue till 2016 so that means you a have limited number of Block 2 inducted Please can you tell me what is the production rate of jf-17 per year

It was 18 per year as of the end of last year. My take is about 20 per year currently. Max capacity is supposedly 25 per year. All 50 from Block 2 be delivered by 2016 at which time Block 3 would begin.

PAC produces 18 aircraft a year but has a capacity of 25.

Thunder Resonates as Modernization Inches Forward in Pakistan | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[NKVD]

Kid.... i had a long discussion with a russian members on the same thing... F-15+F-16s shooting shitloads of iraqi,Syrian,Serbian etc migs n sus... you wouldnt have seen it...
So after reading this ... all i can say is... do some research kiddo... comparing USAF +Allies vs Iraqis is probably the dumbest thing you can do to prove anythinf..

woun,t

 

[NKVD]

PAF has much better combat experience than IAF does. PAF is in constant action carrying out strike and close support missions against Taliban. IAF has not seen combat since 1971. Furthermore, PAF and IAF are narrowing their fighter strength gap. 150 JFT to 270 Su-30MKI is a much better numbers game compared to 1965 when IAF had 5 times as many fighters as PAF did.

Well Champion By going on your facts then PLaaf will be a dud air force they not even seen a single Big combat since they came too existence hahaha and russian air force since ww2 Is that make PAf superior too any one off them Naaa
As for IAF they have jointly take part in various exercises or taken part in various war games with western nation regularly COPE INDIA ,red flag Etc Many more too go makes there Pilots gain more Experience and Skills

 

[Superboy]

There are 559 fighters in IAF comprising Su-30MKI, MiG-29, Mirage 2000, MiG-21. There are 386 fighters in PAF comprising JF-17, F-16 (including 13 to be delivered next month from Jordan), Mirage III, F-7.

There are 227 strike planes in IAF comprising MiG-27 and Jaguar. There are 82 strike planes in PAF comprising Mirage 5.

There are 3 AWACs in IAF comprising A-50EhI. There are 6 AWACs in PAF comprising Erieye and ZDK-03.

List of active Indian military aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

India has like 7 times the population of Pakistan, but doesn't have twice the number of warplanes. It is unlikely that IAF can afford to fight a two front war against PLAAF and PAF (assuming no other Muslim air force intervenes) at the present situation.

 

[Superboy]

Is it actually possible for IAF has fewer fighter planes than PAF does? Israel has less than 10% of Egypt's population, but seems to have more fighter planes than Egypt does. Why IAF doesn't have more fighter planes is beyond me. After all, India has almost 1.3 billion people.

 

[NKVD]

There are 559 fighters in IAF comprising Su-30MKI, MiG-29, Mirage 2000, MiG-21. There are 386 fighters in PAF comprising JF-17, F-16 (including 13 to be delivered next month from Jordan), Mirage III, F-7.

There are 227 strike planes in IAF comprising MiG-27 and Jaguar. There are 82 strike planes in PAF comprising Mirage 5.

There are 3 AWACs in IAF comprising A-50EhI. There are 6 AWACs in PAF comprising Erieye and ZDK-03.

List of active Indian military aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

India has like 7 times the population of Pakistan, but doesn't have twice the number of warplanes. It is unlikely that IAF can afford to fight a two front war against PLAAF and PAF (assuming no other Muslim air force intervenes) at the present situation.

excatly how many 4/ 4.5 gen fighters paf currently operates do the math champ
Iaf have 204 mki + 62 mig 29 upg + 51 m2k +45 mig 29 k/kub of navy
VS
Paf 63 f-16 + 49 blk 1 jf 17
This is the present scenario of paf
shows that paf is still lack behind
iaf in terms of tech avaibility advanced a training and budget allocation but still paf is catching up up with iaf day by day creating tentions lines on the faces of defence experts and think tanks of Iaf

 

[Superboy]

excatly how many 4/ 4.5 gen fighters paf currently operates do the math champ
Iaf have 204 mki + 62 mig 29 upg + 51 m2k +45 mig 29 k/kub of navy
VS
Paf 63 f-16 + 49 blk 1 jf 17
This is the present scenario of paf
shows that paf is still lack behind
iaf in terms of tech avaibility advanced a training and budget allocation but still paf is catching up up with iaf day by day creating tentions lines on the faces of defence experts and think tanks of Iaf

With 150 JF-17 on order and 250 planned, PAF is closing the quality gap fast. Besides, F-7 or Mirage III can take on Su-30MKI in combat and come out on top. In 1965 PAF F-86 Sabres, older and less performing compared to IAF Hunters, managed to gain the upper hand.

Does IAF really have 51 Mirage 2000?

 

[user1]

There is a recurrent pattern of this kind of alarming news coming out of Indian Military establishment. In addition of spending so much on indigenous weaponry; the Generals still balk from inducting indigenous products and keep buying foreign Weapons. According to SIPRI , Indian received 9% of all International arms transfers between 2006 - 2010.

The single most over-riding reason seems to be to be the kick backs and commissions gravy train that everybody loves to ride.

There is this example of a very famous event from the past which is quite revealing. The excerpt is from the Book 'India - A Portrait'.

An investigation into arms sales by the website Tehelka in 2001 sparked this shift, catching and shaming people for the sort of behaviour that had always been rumoured but never so graphically demonstrated. The sting revealed that numerous politicians, military officers and bureaucrats were taking money on defence deals. The undercover footage was as shocking for its content as for the nonchalance and foul language with which the guardians of the nation’s defences sold their services for cash. Tehelka was then in its heyday, and two of its reporters, Mathew Samuel and Aniruddha Bahal, posed as representatives of a fictitious London-based arms manufacturer, West End International.

They claimed to be selling “4th generation thermal imaging equipment” and military hardware. Bangaru Laxman, a token Dalit who was president of the BJP, was filmed taking Rs100,000 in cash as an initial sweetener and saying, “you can give dollars” next time. The Samata party’s treasurer, R. K. Jain, boasted he had made a fortune for his party and for himself in similar scams. Bangaru Laxman, the defence minister George Fernandes (who in his days as a firebrand had thrown out Coca-Cola from India) and his colleague Jaya Jaitly resigned, with Laxman claiming there was a conspiracy against him because of his lower-caste background, and Jaitly asserting that “dubious blackmailers” were trying to destroy the country.

The recorded dialogue between the journalists and their targets yielded material worthy of Joseph Heller’sCatch-22, as reworked by a subcontinental absurdist playwright. Aniruddha Bahal described how his fellow sleuth, Mathew Samuel, was a painfully inept conspirator. Asked by an army general who his firm’s bankers were, he answered: “Thomas Cook”; asked where he stayed in England, he said: “Manchester United.” His military knowledge was no better than his geography (Samuel was a Malayali who had never travelled outside India). When the potential purchasers of the latest thermal imaging cameras asked him what their range was, he replied: “Unlimited.” Noticing a baffled expression, he corrected himself: “No, no … after a long distance the vision gets blurred.” Everyone, from the director of ordnance and supply to the deputy secretary of the ministry of defence, took money. Using a broken mix of Hindi and English, senior army officers, middlemen and politicians chatted away to the fictitious arms dealers over drinks in New Delhi’s five-star hotels:

LT. COL. SHARMA:We don’t involve ministry in our world. We do it directly.

BRIG. SEHGAL:This ******** [sisterfucker], they’ve done a very smart thing. He has kept everything with him.

LT. COL. SHARMA:**** it … We issue the tender, call the bloody parties, do the PNC [Price Negotiation Committee], give the supply order. Screw you.

TEHELKA:We will get the tie-up done. With whoever you want, we will get a tie-knot …

BRIG. SEHGAL:********, see I have a counter offer and all these fuckers know about it. Either I give money ******** to all of them. Include all. This maderchod [motherfucker] is the way here … All these politicians are chutiyas [cunts]. They are all different behind your backs …

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH:Cultivating MGO [Master General of Ordnance] is my problem … I will find out somebody from his country-cousin side, whether he is game or not otherwise.

TEHELKA:Yeah, okay …

MAT. GEN. AHLUWALIA:Now understand, if you are talking about a deal which is 20 crore [$4.5m] here, 60 crore there, make a profit of5 crore, saala [brother-in-law, though implying worse], if you come to my house to meet me on Diwali, you can’t talk without bringing Blue Label … Isn’t it?

TEHELKA: True fact, sir.

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: So, if, when you are talking big, you got to also project big … Every other fucker knows bloody Putin. Everybody knows George Fernandes, everybody knows bloody Putin, everybody knows bloody Saddam … There are 25 buggers who are carrying a letter from exports. This is big. The carrot at the other end is one bloody deal. This Kaun Banega Crorepati [Who Wants to be a Millionaire?—or technically, who wants Rs10m] … People are happy …

ADDITIONAL SECRETARY L. M. MEHTA: What is the product range?

TEHELKA: Which one … Sir, we have a tank navigation system …

ADDITIONAL SECRETARY L. M. MEHTA:Achha.

TEHELKA: And that is smart ammunition, and some very typical type of bombs …

ADDITIONAL SECRETARY L. M. MEHTA: I see.

TEHELKA: So, a lot of products, we are supplying NATO countries also.

(Pause)

ADDITIONAL SECRETARY L. M. MEHTA: So you must remain on their payroll.

TEHELKA: Yeah …

MAJ. S. J. SINGH: I am, basically, you can call me a fixer … There was a deal of Krasnopol [a laser-guided artillery projectile]. That was 50 crore deal … It was not being cleared and …

TEHELKA: Due to what?

MAJ. S. J. SINGH: Firstly, out of six tests, it was only one test which was successful. Five test failures. Then the bureaucracy was not at all in favour of it … but, ultimately, we were able to push it through … and now it is a repeat order.

TEHELKA: This is called smart ammunition something?

MAJ. S. J. SINGH: Yeah.

TEHELKA: Same thing.

MAJ. S. J. SINGH: Krasnopol is the name of the bomb.

The image of the Indian military communicated here was not reassuring; the following year, India and Pakistan came close to going to war, with India mobilizing half a million troops on the frontier. The most outrageous thing about this exposé was not the corruption, nor even the idea that a weapon might be bought after repeated test failures, but the state’s response to the dishonesty. The prosecution of those involved was half-hearted, and much more effort was devoted to persecuting Tehelka, which was nearly destroyed by repeated investigations and court cases (it has since revived as a weekly magazine for the socially concerned). The BJP was in power at the time, but even when Congress came back into office they showed no interest in quashing the various cases. Many of the people caught in the sting operation simply pretended that all the videos had been faked. This became something of a tradition in India whenever a prominent figure was caught on camera: the 86-year-old governor of Andhra Pradesh, N. D. Tiwari, said he was innocent of any scandal after he was photographed in bed with several unhappy young women: “They are using the electronic technology to combine photographs.”

 

[Superboy]

Israel has some 20,000 square kilometers of land and some 7 million people and it has 420 fighter jets. Surely both IAF and PAF can each easily field thousands of fighter jets.

Israeli Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia