IAF attack on Dacca-4th Dec

[blain2]

First make ur indian friends stop all profanity i am under no pressure...

All you have to do is to report the Indian profanity and it will be taken care of.

 

[blain2]

It would be nice not to get drawn into the score/s debate. It's a never-ending and wasteful exercise which arises mainly due to the differences in perspective on both sides. On the Indian side the IAF is viewed merely as a tool to achieve an end objective whereas on the Pakistani side the PAF is considered as "God's gift to the Muslim World".

That is simply your opinion and that is it. PAF is considered a vital Pakistani asset and they have proven their worth in all of the conflicts with India. Lately its you guys who think that IAF is God's gift to aviation flying something out of this world (MKI). Get over this complex first and then you can tell us to fix our complexes. Thus far the only ones talking trash in every single aviation forum are folks from India. During the past wars, the performance of your Air Force has been fairly mediocre. The problem for most people buying into the IAF hype (mostly Indians) is that they do not look back at the history. If they did then some humility would make sense.

From our side the thing to remember is that in '71 the main objective of the IAF (as also the other services) was to function in cohesion with the other 2 services in achieving the broad objective of the war -- liberate East Pakistan. Was the broad objective of that war achieved? Yes! period.

Really so only Indians think about integrated operations? Since your boys are the only ones capable of such things, I wonder why we or anyone else around the world think about integrated operations or the possibility of synergizing our military goals with our geo-political goals??...For that matter, why do we even have 3 different arms...might as well merge them all in to one and call it a day... Integrated operations to achieve a certain goal is part of each side's planning. There are very many instances where you guys have utterly failed to attain any sort of synergy in the conduct of operations, the same is the case here. This happened during the 65 and 71 wars.

Whereas on the Pakistani side I guess the PAF's objective was to teach us 'Hindu Kafirs' a lesson by shooting down as many of our jets as possible. If so, they achieved that objective. period.

If you say so. Our goal is to keep India off our backs. Given the recent ongoings, I say PAF has been doing a pretty fine job of it as it has done in the previous wars against great odds. Its not exactly the greatest feat of arms for you to put in 250,000 troops on the ground in addition to help from local irregulars numbering in many hundreds of thousands, backed up by 9 sqns against 45000 regular troops and 1 sqn of aircraft (all cutoff from their support base) and then suggest that you guys do everything every time with a goal in mind. If that were the case then what has become of the Indian military plans against West Pakistan in 1965 and 1971?

If I'm not mistaken the Bangladeshi muslims were actually fighting with us Indians against the Pakistani muslims. But since nowadays both parties are calling each other 'brothers' it hard to figure out who was fighting whom in '71!

East Pakistanis were divided back then in their support. Many supported West Pakistan, most did not.

 

[blain2]

Making a movie with a fictitious character is completely different than watching a real person dying in real world..
I saw the other day in TV when artilary was fired upon PK soldiers.. and those poor guys just stood up like a statue.. and fell.. really hard to watch..

The scenes are completely different than what we see everyday in movie... Human being can be so helpless in times.. and those bombs were falling 10 meters away from them and still dying.. I beleive from shock ...!!! dont know..

What Artillery and where? Please explain. You do not die from shock. What you could probably not see is the radius over which the shrapnel goes. Its sharper than most knives and can halve a body easily.

 

[chindit]

45000 regular troops

(56,694 Armed Forces
12,192 Paramilitary
rest civilians)

Bangladesh Liberation War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Another
1. Army - 55,692
2. Paramilitary - 16,354
3. Police - 5,296
4. Navy - 1,000
5. Air Force - 800

So atleast 12000 more than what you quoted.

 

[blain2]

(56,694 Armed Forces
12,192 Paramilitary
rest civilians)

Bangladesh Liberation War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Another
1. Army - 55,692
2. Paramilitary - 16,354
3. Police - 5,296
4. Navy - 1,000
5. Air Force - 800

So atleast 12000 more than what you quoted.

Please do not quote Wiki, any topic related to 1971 or East Pakistan has excessive Indian influence to the point that none of that stuff is objective or even close to being neutral. Show me the orbat of the Pakistani formations. Regular Pakistani troops did not exceed 45,000. I will provide the list of formations that were in East Pakistan.

Also take note even with what you have quoted above from Wiki, its nothing even close to the oft-repeated 90,000 number (usually this number is used to allude to military POWs).

 

[chindit]

Also take note even with what you have quoted above from Wiki, its nothing even close to the oft-repeated 90,000 number (usually this number is used to allude to military POWs).

sure man, rest assured if any indian comes here and posts anything about "90000 pakistani army POWs" and i happen to read it - I will be posting the same link in his face.

East Pakistan has excessive Indian influence to the point that none of that stuff is objective or even close to being neutral. Show me the orbat of the Pakistani formations. Regular Pakistani troops did not exceed 45,000. I will provide the list of formations that were in East Pakistan.

and you will get them --- shortly.

 

[chindit]

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ARMY/History/1971War/PDF/1971Chapter18.pdf

Page 753:

1. Army - 55,692
2. Navy - 1047
3. AirForce - 838
-------------------
Total Regular Forces - 57578

Para Military 16354
Pollice 5296
Merchant Navy 449
--------------------
Total Para Military / Police / MN - 22069

Civilians in Protective Custody - 6403
Spouses of Military and civilian officers - 1922
Children - 4207
-------------------
Total Civilians -12535

Ofcourse I know you will come back to me saying its an indian source - but you would have a Pakistani official source or book to counter that - right?

 

[blain2]

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ARMY/History/1971War/PDF/1971Chapter18.pdf

Page 753:

1. Army - 55,692
2. Navy - 1047
3. AirForce - 838
-------------------
Total Regular Forces - 57578

Para Military 16354
Pollice 5296
Merchant Navy 449
--------------------
Total Para Military / Police / MN - 22069

Civilians in Protective Custody - 6403
Spouses of Military and civilian officers - 1922
Children - 4207
-------------------
Total Civilians -12535

Ofcourse I know you will come back to me saying its an indian source - but you would have a Pakistani official source or book to counter that - right?

I have purposefully avoided posting the numbers straight off the web, all it takes is a simple google search and there you have it. The point I was trying to make in the first post was that in the face of 45000 troops (you added another 10000 based on Indian sources), IA had fielded 250000 troops. This is like Gen Montgomery's preparation against the Germans who were besieged, overwhelmed and undermanned by the time Montgomery's attack came to fore. Airforce and Navy personnel are not the same thing as boots on the ground. As time has gone by, like many other things, Pakistani numbers have also fallen victim to the snowball effect. You have to see the Orbat to realize what Pakistani formations were on the ground in East Pakistan and then the number I am talking about starts making sense.

I am digging up the source. Unlike you, I have to actually go through some archives, books as I am not taking the easy way out by googling for answers. My source will be from the Pakistani side and I believe more accurate because we were there and we knew what formations were deployed in East Pakistan during the war.

 

[chindit]

I have purposefully avoided posting the numbers straight off the web, all it takes is a simple google search and there you have it. The point I was trying to make in the first post was that in the face of 45000 troops (you added another 10000 based on Indian sources),

I am digging up the source. Unlike you, I have to actually go through some archives, books as I am not taking the easy way out by googling for answers. My source will be from the Pakistani side and I believe more accurate because we were there and we knew what formations were deployed in East Pakistan during the war.

Blain, Dont bother - here is a Pakistani source that confirms what the Indian sources have stated and what i have posted off in the first place. The wiki was rather accurate.

The Report of the Commission of Inquiry - 1971 War
as Declassified by The Government of Pakistan.
Volume-I: Supplementary Report - Top secret


PART IV - SURRENDER IN EAST PAKISTAN


CHAPTER VII - The aftermath


1. In the preceding chapter we have described the closing phases of
the surrender episode at Dacca, and have taken note of not only the
failure of the eastern command to ensure the execution of the standard
denial plans of the various formations, but have also commented upon


etc etc etc... (and in the end)

18. It is not possible to calculate the losses suffered in terms of
money, nor it is really easy to arrive at an exact estimate of the
quantity of arms and equipment, vehicles, stores and ammunition
destroyed during the war or surrendered to the enemy. However, on the
basis of authorized holdings of units located in East Pakistan during
the war, the following estimate and quantification had been tempted by
the GHQ representative:-


Army

(1) Armoured Regiment 63 x M-24 tanks
(2) Artillery 90x105mm Howitzer
Field Regiments 18x3.7mm Howitzer

etc etc etc... (and in the end)


(18) Personnel

Army 54,154
Navy 1381
Air Force 833
Paramilitary including police 22000
Civilian personnel 12000
Total: 90,368

I hope you will correct the future references to 56,000 atleast.

Reg the Indian Forces being 250,000 etc , I can dig around and take a look into that. If it is 250,000 , Iwill post what i find. If its not, I will post what i find as well.

I am assuming that 250,000 figure includes BSF personnel, then you should ideally add the Para military police figures in the POW numbers as well int he defending forces.

 

[Moriarty]

Really so only Indians think about integrated operations? Since your boys are the only ones capable of such things, I wonder why we or anyone else around the world think about integrated operations or the possibility of synergizing our military goals with our geo-political goals??...For that matter, why do we even have 3 different arms...might as well merge them all in to one and call it a day... Integrated operations to achieve a certain goal is part of each side's planning. There are very many instances where you guys have utterly failed to attain any sort of synergy in the conduct of operations, the same is the case here. This happened during the 65 and 71 wars.

Two examples come to mind immediately:

1 Battle of Longewala : No air cover by PAF - result: 120 men and few IAF birds routed a Tank battalion and an infantry column

2 Kargil : PAF was not taken into confidence. : result: intruders were chased back across the border, many getting killed in the process.

Talk about integrated operations....hmmn..


~ Moriarty

 

[ejaz007]

2 Kargil : PAF was not taken into confidence. : result: intruders were chased back across the border, many getting killed in the process.

~ Moriarty

PAF was on board during the Kargil crisis. The three services are always on board during any crisis.

It was only Mr. Nawaz Sharif visit to USA that resulted in the withdrawal of the fighters. IAF and IA only attacked them when they were withdrawing. As long as they were in their positions IA and IAF were unable to dislodge them. You used whatever weapons you could and they had no effect. Even Mirage 2000 and Bofors failed to do the job. You should thank Mr. Nawaz Sharif for saving you otherwise situation would have been different now.

What we won on ground we lost on table thanks to incompetent person.

 

[Muradk]

PAF was on board during the Kargil crisis. The three services are always on board during any crisis.

It was only Mr. Nawaz Sharif visit to USA that resulted in the withdrawal of the fighters. IAF and IA only attacked them when they were withdrawing. As long as they were in their positions IA and IAF were unable to dislodge them. You used whatever weapons you could and they had no effect. Even Mirage 2000 and Bofors failed to do the job. You should thank Mr. Nawaz Sharif for saving you otherwise situation would have been different now.

What we won on ground we lost on table thanks to incompetent person.

Ejaz you are just wasting time with this poster. He has or don't have any idea about Longawala or kargil. We have tons of info on both subject on the forum this Indian member should look it up, he just wants to pick a fight so do me a favour don't answer him at all.

 

[Indicom]

PAF was on board during the Kargil crisis. The three services are always on board during any crisis.

It was only Mr. Nawaz Sharif visit to USA that resulted in the withdrawal of the fighters. IAF and IA only attacked them when they were withdrawing. As long as they were in their positions IA and IAF were unable to dislodge them. You used whatever weapons you could and they had no effect. Even Mirage 2000 and Bofors failed to do the job. You should thank Mr. Nawaz Sharif for saving you otherwise situation would have been different now.

What we won on ground we lost on table thanks to incompetent person.

I won't say IAF dislodged them completely but definitely softened them to the extent that the MANPADS which were so frequently being used initially against the ACs were nowhere to be seen in effect after the Mirage2000 started dropping LGBs with effect.We have got videos to support this.Also the terrain added to the woes of a proper aerial strike,the ops done by IAF has never been tried anywhere in the world.

Regarding the IA,most of the posts were taken from the Pakistani elements manning it,some of them might have come without any resistance after the infiltrators have vacated those.

Let's not talk about Mr.Sharif,we all know about the secret of a wet Salwar .