Bane Blade
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2008
- Messages
- 1,312
- Reaction score
- 0
Actually you are right I am also wondering why people hate Indians so much they are probably better off than us in a few cases.
I want my country back
- Thread starter fatman17
- Start date
Actually you are right I am also wondering why people hate Indians so much they are probably better off than us in a few cases.
Bane Blade
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2008
- Messages
- 1,312
- Reaction score
- 0
Yet still all forums we start a debate in seems to end in this tit for tat one liners that are full of hate like youre bad at this but your people do this your people do that and it is that alot of memers do this against people and admittedly so even I have when some events even confuse me completely and soon I am even wondering what Pakistan wants to achieve in the next few years.
muse
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2006
- Messages
- 13,006
- Reaction score
- 0
Why does Extremist ideology find such favor in Pakistan ? How does the State and it's failure further extremist ideology? -- below is a exploration an interesting point of view, not my cup of tea but worth considering, I invite you to do just that:
The unenlightened elite
Nadeem Ul Haque
Our great analysts (mainly columnists) never go beyond Zia-ul Haq and the political leadership to understand the causes of our political and social ills, especially the phenomenon of fundamentalism. This is why our politics and policymaking remains so uninformed. Superficial intellect is often satisfied with proximate causes.
What is needed is a deeper analysis based on social science thinking.
A starting point could be an attempt to look into the apartheid social regime we have created. Could the extreme degree of exclusion of the poor (basically the non-elite) be at the heart of our troubles? Here are some benchmarks:
Ask yourself: where do the poor live?
The poor are totally excluded from elite space; they are seen only as servants and the only place allocated to them in the cities are servant quarters.
Most of the population needs small one- to two-room flats. But where can they be put? Zoning laws in our cities do not allow this except on the outer reaches. Council houses in London exist side by side with expensive housing. Not so in Pakistan. The rich and the poor cannot mix. We cannot have high rises looking into the residences of the rich.
The rich want conveniently located polo grounds and golf courses, giant parks to jog in and, of course, nice big lawns for their parties. They want sleek, low-rise cities where their cars can move easily from their estates to their leisure activities golf and polo. The rich want zoning laws so that there is no high-rise construction or congestion in their park-like setting.
Ask yourself: what do the poor do?
The elite policymaker, who is often an industrialist, looks to industrial parks and subsidies for employment of the non-elite; no matter that factory employment lags way behind employment in the services sector.
With technological advancement, no longer are giant factories employing millions of workers. Large numbers are now employed in construction, shopping malls, hotels and the leisure industry. But that is anathema to planners and zoners, who are from the elite civil service. All retail, warehousing, leisure and community enterprises, and the non-elite, are regarded as non-essential. These then expand informally on residential property. Limited development of these activities means less employment for the non-elite.
So what about entrepreneurship by the poor?
The poor have traditionally helped themselves by running street hawking businesses and khokhas (kiosks). They used to be around a few years ago. But administrations have become vigilant and do not allow these in rich areas. And, of course, there can be no zoning for them. Where is the space? We need wide avenues for the Porsches and the BMWs! We also need large urban tracts for golf courses, polo grounds and giant parks (lungs of the city). So let these people go to shantytowns in the outskirts of our cities.
How do the poor work their way out of poverty?
Traditionally education has been an equaliser. However, in the Pakistani apartheid system, this is not happening. The rich educate their kids overseas to leave the local education system in a permanent state of disrepair. Many years ago, driver Majeed declared quite openly his intention not to educate his son because Urdu-medium public schools do not offer children upward mobility even after years of education. Only a few days ago, talking to me a 26-year-old driver in Dubai cursed his over twelve years of Urdu-medium education from Pakistan that only qualifies him for menial jobs a waste.
Does the state not help the poor?
Every now and then, politicians set aside a large amount and give it a donor-inspired name like Income Support Fund or Social Protection. Much bureaucracy, Land Cruisers, consultants and plush offices later, the poor get some minor rationing subsidy. Most often, it is some form of food coupons, cash transfers, a yellow cab scheme or micro-credit. How strange: give them food and capital but no place for entrepreneurship.
Interestingly enough, the state subsidy to industry is way more than the state has ever spent on the poor. And the subsidy to the industry goes directly into the pockets of the rich.
What about enlightened self-interest and noblesse oblige?
In history, enlightened self-interest has led the rich to invest in some social mobility. Philanthropy has set up universities and community infrastructure to level the playing field for the poor. Royalty always patronised intellect. Unfortunately, in Pakistan, philanthropy means building for the rich country clubs, polo grounds, LUMS and Aitchison College: places for elite use that, for the most part, do nothing for the excluded.
As a footnote, the rich do not even visit the poor campuses to mentor and interact with the underprivileged. They have no time for these trivialities.
What about leisure and community for the poor?
Leisure and community are only for the rich. City zoning provides fully subsidised space for the elite to play golf, tennis and polo, even for rich schools, but there is not an inch of space for community and leisure for the poor. No public libraries, no community centres, no publicly provided football fields or even a basketball court for the poor. Even competitive sport as a vehicle for social mobility is completely ruled out as a result.
Why are the intellectuals so unconnected?
For years the government has been pushing a vision of fundamentalist Islam and frowning on liberal social science. Intellectuals have been driven out of universities and are now minor employees of donors, singing only the masters tune. Recently, I asked a leading intellectual to write on a social issue. His answer: I am a big time consultant now, I write only to drum up donor money. This will not fit in!
Who offers the poor hope?
Certainly not the government! Certainly not the donors with their minor employees! The liberal elite made big promises and delivered nothing. The promise of globalisation and liberalisation has rightly lost its lustre in the minds of the poor.
Theatre, cinema, or any form of intellectual activity that will offer an alternative vision has been zoned out. Where should the poor look for a vision; who offers them hope; who offers them community; who gives them some opportunity; who gives them the vision of a just society?
Think about it. It is the mosque and the maulvi. Mosques remain totally unregulated, need no zoning permission and have been actively encouraged by the state. Not surprisingly, the mosque is the only community centre for the excluded poor; the unregulated maulvi the only visionary. This is the unintended consequence of the greedy, unenlightened behaviour of our elite.
Nadeem Ul Haque is former Vice Chancellor of PIDE. Email: nhaque_imf@yahoo.com
The unenlightened elite
Nadeem Ul Haque
Our great analysts (mainly columnists) never go beyond Zia-ul Haq and the political leadership to understand the causes of our political and social ills, especially the phenomenon of fundamentalism. This is why our politics and policymaking remains so uninformed. Superficial intellect is often satisfied with proximate causes.
What is needed is a deeper analysis based on social science thinking.
A starting point could be an attempt to look into the apartheid social regime we have created. Could the extreme degree of exclusion of the poor (basically the non-elite) be at the heart of our troubles? Here are some benchmarks:
Ask yourself: where do the poor live?
The poor are totally excluded from elite space; they are seen only as servants and the only place allocated to them in the cities are servant quarters.
Most of the population needs small one- to two-room flats. But where can they be put? Zoning laws in our cities do not allow this except on the outer reaches. Council houses in London exist side by side with expensive housing. Not so in Pakistan. The rich and the poor cannot mix. We cannot have high rises looking into the residences of the rich.
The rich want conveniently located polo grounds and golf courses, giant parks to jog in and, of course, nice big lawns for their parties. They want sleek, low-rise cities where their cars can move easily from their estates to their leisure activities golf and polo. The rich want zoning laws so that there is no high-rise construction or congestion in their park-like setting.
Ask yourself: what do the poor do?
The elite policymaker, who is often an industrialist, looks to industrial parks and subsidies for employment of the non-elite; no matter that factory employment lags way behind employment in the services sector.
With technological advancement, no longer are giant factories employing millions of workers. Large numbers are now employed in construction, shopping malls, hotels and the leisure industry. But that is anathema to planners and zoners, who are from the elite civil service. All retail, warehousing, leisure and community enterprises, and the non-elite, are regarded as non-essential. These then expand informally on residential property. Limited development of these activities means less employment for the non-elite.
So what about entrepreneurship by the poor?
The poor have traditionally helped themselves by running street hawking businesses and khokhas (kiosks). They used to be around a few years ago. But administrations have become vigilant and do not allow these in rich areas. And, of course, there can be no zoning for them. Where is the space? We need wide avenues for the Porsches and the BMWs! We also need large urban tracts for golf courses, polo grounds and giant parks (lungs of the city). So let these people go to shantytowns in the outskirts of our cities.
How do the poor work their way out of poverty?
Traditionally education has been an equaliser. However, in the Pakistani apartheid system, this is not happening. The rich educate their kids overseas to leave the local education system in a permanent state of disrepair. Many years ago, driver Majeed declared quite openly his intention not to educate his son because Urdu-medium public schools do not offer children upward mobility even after years of education. Only a few days ago, talking to me a 26-year-old driver in Dubai cursed his over twelve years of Urdu-medium education from Pakistan that only qualifies him for menial jobs a waste.
Does the state not help the poor?
Every now and then, politicians set aside a large amount and give it a donor-inspired name like Income Support Fund or Social Protection. Much bureaucracy, Land Cruisers, consultants and plush offices later, the poor get some minor rationing subsidy. Most often, it is some form of food coupons, cash transfers, a yellow cab scheme or micro-credit. How strange: give them food and capital but no place for entrepreneurship.
Interestingly enough, the state subsidy to industry is way more than the state has ever spent on the poor. And the subsidy to the industry goes directly into the pockets of the rich.
What about enlightened self-interest and noblesse oblige?
In history, enlightened self-interest has led the rich to invest in some social mobility. Philanthropy has set up universities and community infrastructure to level the playing field for the poor. Royalty always patronised intellect. Unfortunately, in Pakistan, philanthropy means building for the rich country clubs, polo grounds, LUMS and Aitchison College: places for elite use that, for the most part, do nothing for the excluded.
As a footnote, the rich do not even visit the poor campuses to mentor and interact with the underprivileged. They have no time for these trivialities.
What about leisure and community for the poor?
Leisure and community are only for the rich. City zoning provides fully subsidised space for the elite to play golf, tennis and polo, even for rich schools, but there is not an inch of space for community and leisure for the poor. No public libraries, no community centres, no publicly provided football fields or even a basketball court for the poor. Even competitive sport as a vehicle for social mobility is completely ruled out as a result.
Why are the intellectuals so unconnected?
For years the government has been pushing a vision of fundamentalist Islam and frowning on liberal social science. Intellectuals have been driven out of universities and are now minor employees of donors, singing only the masters tune. Recently, I asked a leading intellectual to write on a social issue. His answer: I am a big time consultant now, I write only to drum up donor money. This will not fit in!
Who offers the poor hope?
Certainly not the government! Certainly not the donors with their minor employees! The liberal elite made big promises and delivered nothing. The promise of globalisation and liberalisation has rightly lost its lustre in the minds of the poor.
Theatre, cinema, or any form of intellectual activity that will offer an alternative vision has been zoned out. Where should the poor look for a vision; who offers them hope; who offers them community; who gives them some opportunity; who gives them the vision of a just society?
Think about it. It is the mosque and the maulvi. Mosques remain totally unregulated, need no zoning permission and have been actively encouraged by the state. Not surprisingly, the mosque is the only community centre for the excluded poor; the unregulated maulvi the only visionary. This is the unintended consequence of the greedy, unenlightened behaviour of our elite.
Nadeem Ul Haque is former Vice Chancellor of PIDE. Email: nhaque_imf@yahoo.com
fatman17
PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2007
- Messages
- 32,563
- Reaction score
- 98
- Country
- Location
Certainly not the government! Certainly not the donors with their minor employees! The liberal elite made big promises and delivered nothing. The promise of globalisation and liberalisation has rightly lost its lustre in the minds of the poor.
maybe hillary clinton read this op-ed before making quite similar comments to the senate foreign relations committee. the present and past govt.'s have been incapable to provide the basic needs of the people of this country, Jobs, Security, Health & Education. it is no wonder that a segment of the poor is attracted to the cause of the militants who claim to provide all that is not provided by the state.
the icing on the cake was when our indomitable ambassador to the US and the FO refuted the comments of the US secty of state!!!
denial! denial! denial!
maybe hillary clinton read this op-ed before making quite similar comments to the senate foreign relations committee. the present and past govt.'s have been incapable to provide the basic needs of the people of this country, Jobs, Security, Health & Education. it is no wonder that a segment of the poor is attracted to the cause of the militants who claim to provide all that is not provided by the state.
the icing on the cake was when our indomitable ambassador to the US and the FO refuted the comments of the US secty of state!!!
denial! denial! denial!
fatman17
PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2007
- Messages
- 32,563
- Reaction score
- 98
- Country
- Location
RescueRanger
PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2008
- Messages
- 16,370
- Reaction score
- 244
- Country
- Location
Marra
Tha tsanga ye?
Dont even go there about this Nazem-e-ada, i am 20th generation Niazi of Mohammadzai and i can frankly say this is going our country... Now there are saying Sariki Province? WTF! What is wrong with us...
When you go abroad, people will not look at you as Pathan, Punjabi, Sindhi, Makrani, Kashmiri, Jatt, Baluchi, Kafri (you will be a Pakistani, with a Pakistani Passport)
Pakistan eik Neshan hai yar... Wake up!
AFP do not represent all Pakistani's and all Pashtun's. Shere Afghan Khan Niazi is behaving like an Idiot and Zardari that dog is helping him. First they bring Bacha Khan's dream to fruittion by renaming the NWFP to Pukhtun Khaw (WTF! There are Hazarra, Chitrali, Hindko, Isai, Hindu, Sikh, Jatt, Kafristani, Aga Khani, Ismaili) people living in that area who dont speak Pashtu or subscribe to Pukhtunwali... So Why thel hell call it Pukthun Khaw!
Nonsense!
Stumper
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
- Messages
- 1,226
- Reaction score
- 0
Muse, What about the education system? . Somehow, in our region (both India and Pakistna) have been teaching the self righteous, racist view points in our books. Although my books were not racist in terms of religion, but we rarely got a fair view of other side. Example, British Rulers were nothing short of Rapists and Diamond robbers. Pakistan was easily defeated in all war, Chinese thrust the war upon us, etc etc. Point is, our education never really allows us to self introspect or encourages being a critic.
What's your view point on this? Dont you think this has effected the way this kids (grown up now) have easily embraced the alternate teachings of the extremist's?
What's your view point on this? Dont you think this has effected the way this kids (grown up now) have easily embraced the alternate teachings of the extremist's?
abrakadabra
FULL MEMBER
New Recruit
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2009
- Messages
- 59
- Reaction score
- 0
Very correct. Even media (print, electronic etc.) has been badly wanting as far as this is concerned.
I have not seen one news paper, one news channel debating the merits of the case of our adversaries.
Zob
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2009
- Messages
- 1,403
- Reaction score
- 0
- Country
- Location
Rora zo koo khayam tu waiyaa??
See brother you know one thing PATHANS mashallah till now have not been ghadar will not be ghadar inshallah....even the TALIBAN are scared to say give us freedom because they know all PATHANS are very patrotic....nizam-e-adal seems to be correct for SWAT people because they had grievences...the problem which i keep saying is not NWFP or nizam-e-adal no one can inshallah break NWFP...but balochistan if not adressed will break because the locals in balochistan have developed a hatred for pakistan that with each passing day is getting harder to reverse....don't worry you know it and i know it no one can inshallah seprate our NWFP from pakistan. Taliban is a diversion from what the real goal is...i.e. break balochistan....and you know it the TALIBAN cannot get to SWABI,mardan anywhere because people in these areas have no greivences and are educated...so don't worry...
Cheetah786
PDF VETERAN
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2006
- Messages
- 9,002
- Reaction score
- -3
- Country
- Location
Mr. Zob these Terrorist wants to enforce a law but at the same time they themselves are exempt from it .
could you please provide a link where God said to FATA area Thugs you can enforce my LAW but you your self is free to do as will.last i remembered Islamic laws apply evenly to all so by that definition these thugs will have to pay for all the crimes they committed before they can enforce it on others.
Thats the thinking of most Idiots as uneducated idiots almost always believe they know better and are the chosen ones but at the same time these are the same people who will have a problem with the same law when they face it themselves.
Patriot act was cheered by 1000s in USA till they found out its powers were also being used against them now the same people are against it but 2 late
In Canada people signed petitions to increase security here and there but complained at the same time when government started charging them tax to enforce extra measures of security same people wanted.
TOPGUN
PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2006
- Messages
- 8,689
- Reaction score
- 2
- Country
- Location
We need our country back forsure! the people need to stand up specialy this stupid gov we need to unite , we need to fight these cowards that have troubled our country ! Indian's are not the enemy here infact i think why raise your hand when they arent we should work towards peace and friendship we are all human after all but as for these bastards that are doing wat they are doing need to be delt with ASAP not just for Pakistan's sake but for the world so help us GOD!
Last edited:
Interceptor
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2007
- Messages
- 2,005
- Reaction score
- 0
meaning!
and oh! welcome back - long time no hear Mr. PPP!
Have you even read what the story starts off as, he left the country 8 years ago knowing he had no future in Pakistan. Who was in Power or should we say who held Pakistan hostage for the last decade.
This mess is the epic discontent of the history of Pakistan. When some generals make up their mind to hijack society, and leave 10 years later a country in ruins dead or alive.
---
You still descend where others would have learned their lesson....Mr.
muse
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2006
- Messages
- 13,006
- Reaction score
- 0
Criticism is METHOD, that is to say that it is what helps us test our ideas and these tests then allow us to create better solutions - however; we, especially in Pakistan do not take such a view of criticism.
The author of piece suggests that we have a kind of aparheid education system in Pakistan and it's difficult to disagree. Urdu medium schools are a disaster, but look who pushed for Urdu medium schools, are these not the same people who have enabled extrmists ideas in society? are they not the same who have made a ideology of religion?
Energon
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2007
- Messages
- 1,077
- Reaction score
- 0
Muse: Awesome posts. kudos
While poverty and inequality (historically rampant throughout South Asia under varying labels) are undoubtedly factors that increase a society's susceptibility to destabilizing effects through violence, crime and extremism; it would be naive directly correlate it with "Talibanization".
Indignation over indigence should never come at the expense of introspection. The primary drivers of this extremist movement were at its inception and are even today individuals with exceptional financial means who have at some point or the other benefited from all the advantages of modern society; the very thing they want to destroy now by enlisting less fortunate people who weren't lucky enough to have the same exposure and opportunities.
This is not a matter of poverty, but rather that of manipulation through ideology. Religion and political doctrines have always been at the forefront of this problem. One would think if you separate one from the other the problem would lessen, experiences from Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao and their fellow comrades however indicate to the contrary. What makes religious based radicalism virulent IMO is that it is inherently an untestable hypothesis.
Very serious measures have to be taken to improve literacy and equality; not because it will stop people from being terrorists, but rather because it will be a stepping stone to forging a healthier society which also provides adequate public services (especially law and order), economic opportunities based on merit and a regulated source of capital (like banks). It is the latter greater objective that diminishes the foundation of radicalism and terrorism.
While poverty and inequality (historically rampant throughout South Asia under varying labels) are undoubtedly factors that increase a society's susceptibility to destabilizing effects through violence, crime and extremism; it would be naive directly correlate it with "Talibanization".
Indignation over indigence should never come at the expense of introspection. The primary drivers of this extremist movement were at its inception and are even today individuals with exceptional financial means who have at some point or the other benefited from all the advantages of modern society; the very thing they want to destroy now by enlisting less fortunate people who weren't lucky enough to have the same exposure and opportunities.
This is not a matter of poverty, but rather that of manipulation through ideology. Religion and political doctrines have always been at the forefront of this problem. One would think if you separate one from the other the problem would lessen, experiences from Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao and their fellow comrades however indicate to the contrary. What makes religious based radicalism virulent IMO is that it is inherently an untestable hypothesis.
Very serious measures have to be taken to improve literacy and equality; not because it will stop people from being terrorists, but rather because it will be a stepping stone to forging a healthier society which also provides adequate public services (especially law and order), economic opportunities based on merit and a regulated source of capital (like banks). It is the latter greater objective that diminishes the foundation of radicalism and terrorism.
Similar threads
Latest posts
-
-
Russian air strikes kill 19 civilians in north Syria: monitor- Latest: Pakistan Space Agency
-
-
Imran Khan vs Pakistan: Protest of Treachery - Casualty Report
- Latest: Pakistan Space Agency
Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts
-
-
Imran Khan vs Pakistan: Protest of Treachery - Casualty Report
- Latest: Pakistan Space Agency
-
