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I Stand With Imran Khan - please Share!!

It seems that the Establishment of Pakistan has decided to pack and dispose of IK, for good. See, what happens.
If this does not convince you that Establishment (read Army) is the main driver of instability & lack of evolution, then I do not know what will. THIS is why I have been anti-IK since August 2014. When he aligned with Establishment, he killed the promise that he held. Everything that happened subsequently only confirmed me in the correctness of my decision to forsake him & his brand of politics.

This no confidence vote is taking forever. I know such things were frequent for India in the 90s. But I don't know if they took so long to realize.

Also, it seems like Pakistan's democracy has reached the same level of stability as the Indian democracy in 90s. In the next decade or so, you guys may start to see more stable coalitions from civilian political leadership. If the democratic institutions are simply allowed to exist (as they are today), then even if they seem to be under influence now - they will gradually win over the military control. Just a matter of time :cheers:

The vote of no confidence is a necessary bridge to cross & no better time than this. If IK can swim across this obstacle on his own steam then good, if not then that is even better. Politicians need to stand on their own performance, not climb Khaki shoulders.
 
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Windjammer

True Patriotic Thread and post

New Motto
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Here I must relate a small story from early days of Internet, May 1993. When Supreme Court set aside President Ghulam Ishaq Khan's decision to sack the first government of PM Nawaz Sharif, some Indians at soc.culture.pakistan bulletin board congratulated Pakistanis on the Court's order to reverse Establishment's heavy handed interference in politics. The court decision was the first to support an elected government in Pakistan's history (as far as I can tell). This was the first time that I felt that some Indians genuinely want progress in Pakistan's democracy. I was a little confused too. They are the enemy & why would they want Pakistan to progress in political evolution? As time passed, I realized the rationale for their doing so. As two neighbors, we must engage & the quality of the said engagement depends upon the quality of political systems in the two countries. Many in Pakistan's intelligentsia also believed this, though this opinion mostly stayed obscure.

When I read posts by @.King. & @Wood I am reminded of those Indians who had shown optimism in 1993. Thank you gents for writing in favor of democratic development & evolution. I know that you may feel bewildered when you read reactionary responses. Please do know that a large part of Pakistan's population, especially in Punjab, has graduated to a level where they understand the value of political maturity. Mostly it is people who either support PPP or PML-N. But I see a growing number of mature & sensible PTI supporters slowly coming around to the view that Establishment's interference in politics is wrong. When IK took a hard turn towards Establishment politics in 2014, he lost many supporters like myself. Some smart ones had figured him out years ago & had been warning about his tendencies, but people like me had ignored all the signs & kept supporting him, believing that he was an agent of change.

In August 2014, we had to make a choice - it was either Pakistan & its constitution or PTI politics. Many of us chose Pakistan & its constitution over PTI & its brand of disruptive politics at the behest of Establishment. After almost 4 years of PTI's one-page rule, all our fears have come true. We see how petty politics & Establishment's lust for control has done to our country.

Though the price that Pakistan has paid is steep, we look at the silver lining here. This was a necessary education for many people who do not understand politics & role of Establishment in holding political evolution back. Pakistan now requires a steady hand after more than 5 years of induced instability. May we have that & may people learn to respect our Constitution & the process of establishing norms - vote of confidence being one such norm.

To all the PTI supporters: be angry at the Establishment for forsaking IK. But be angrier still at welcoming Establishment's interference on IK's behalf. If you learn this one lesson, then there is hope for future.

PS> Edited the month to May 1993
 
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Here I must relate a small story from early days of Internet, August 1993. When Supreme Court set aside President Ghulam Ishaq Khan's decision to sack the first government of PM Nawaz Sharif, some Indians at soc.culture.pakistan bulletin board congratulated Pakistanis on the Court's order to reverse Establishment's heavy handed interference in politics. The court decision was the first to support an elected government in Pakistan's history (as far as I can tell). This was the first time that I felt that some Indians genuinely want progress in Pakistan's democracy. I was a little confused too. They are the enemy & why would they want Pakistan to progress in political evolution? As time passed, I realized the rationale for their doing so. As two neighbors, we must engage & the quality of the said engagement depends upon the quality of political systems in the two countries. Many in Pakistan's intelligentsia also believed this, though this opinion mostly stayed obscure.

When I read posts by @.King. & @Wood I am reminded of those Indians who had shown optimism in 1993. Thank you gents for writing in favor of democratic development & evolution. I know that you may feel bewildered when you read reactionary responses. Please do know that a large part of Pakistan's population, especially in Punjab, has graduated to a level where they understand the value of political maturity. Mostly it is people who either support PPP or PML-N. But I see a growing number of mature & sensible PTI supporters slowly coming around to the view that Establishment's interference in politics is wrong. When IK took a hard turn towards Establishment politics in 2014, he lost many supporters like myself. Some smart ones had figured him out years ago & had been warning about his tendencies, but people like me had ignored all the signs & kept supporting him, believing that he was an agent of change.

In August 2014, we had to make a choice - it was either Pakistan & its constitution or PTI politics. Many of us chose Pakistan & its constitution over PTI & its brand of disruptive politics at the behest of Establishment. After almost 4 years of PTI's one-page rule, all our fears have come true. We see how petty politics & Establishment's lust for control has done to our country.

Though the price that Pakistan has paid is steep, we look at the silver lining here. This was a necessary education for many people who do not understand politics & role of Establishment in holding political evolution back. Pakistan now requires a steady hand after more than 5 years of induced instability. May we have that & may people learn to respect our Constitution & the process of establishing norms - vote of confidence being one such norm.

To all the PTI supporters: be angry at the Establishment for forsaking IK. But be angrier still at welcoming Establishment's interference on IK's behalf. If you learn this one lesson, then there is hope for future.
Although i have lot of differences with u in past but here i agree with u.
 
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There is no country in the world that has prospered under the direct control of the military. Probably too much power, plays the role. They have a role to play and they need to focus on that only.

We civilians hold the military in high regard because they are seen as epitome of professionalism, dedication and bravery. These are true till they are focused on task they are assigned. As soon as the extra power comes in their hands, all these traits go down the drain. General populace misses this aspect most of the time and still thinks that they are doing their duty and saving the nation, which is not the case mostly.
 
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There is no country in the world that has prospered under the direct control of the military. Probably too much power, plays the role. They have a role to play and they need to focus on that only.

That is not correct.

Meet Park Chung hee, under his military dictatorship

"South Korea possessed one of the fastest growing national economies during the 1960s and 1970s as a result. According to the Gapminder Foundation, extreme poverty was reduced from 66.9 percent in 1961 to 11.2 percent in 1979, making one of the fastest and largest reductions in poverty in human history"

Maqsood Chaprasi fanboys and Bharati fanatics who just re-elected a Fanta bottle in their biggest state just because he will give it to those "katwas" are lecturing us about the virtues of democracy.
 
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That is not correct.

Meet Park Chung hee, under his military dictatorship
Just one case out of so many military ruled countries. More of an exception than the rule.

What I mentioned is majority of the cases. Hence, the chances are that a military rule would ruin a country more often than not.

There can be counter argument to my statement too. Democracies also can be a failure.
But when we compare same countries under military and other kind of rules then the military rules were worse more often.
 
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Just one case out of so many military ruled countries. More of an exception than the rule.

What I mentioned is majority of the cases. Hence, the chances are that a military rule would ruin a country more often than not.

There can be counter argument to my statement too. Democracies also can be a failure.
But when we compare same countries under military and other kind of rules then the military rules were worse more often.

It isn't democracy but meritocracy that is the key to success.

Countries where meritocracy can be achieved through a democratic process are going to have stable and forward looking governments.

PMLN, PPP, JUIF etc. etc. believe in "Daakucracy".

Indeed.
 
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Countries where meritocracy can be achieved through a democratic process are going to have stable and forward looking governments.

Of course. In Pakistan, this so-called democracy has mostly brought the most characterless and conscienceless scum of the society on the top.
 
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If this does not convince you that Establishment (read Army) is the main driver of instability & lack of evolution, then I do not know what will. THIS is why I have been anti-IK since August 2014. When he aligned with Establishment, he killed the promise that he held. Everything that happened subsequently only confirmed me in the correctness of my decision to forsake him & his brand of politics.



The vote of no confidence is a necessary bridge to cross & no better time than this. If IK can swim across this obstacle on his own steam then good, if not then that is even better. Politicians need to stand on their own performance, not climb Khaki shoulders.
Can I have a question? Lets say if IK takes anti establishment stance and PDM alligns with establishment then where you will be stand? Or betterment of Pakistan shareef should get the power?
 
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It isn't democracy but meritocracy that is the key to success.
Yes. Thats the right way of putting it across.

Why aren’t militaries able to put meritocracy on top? They are well trained, motivated, patriotic but even then they generally fail to deliver on good governance and a nations development.

One reason could be - they think that only people in uniform can do a good job. They put their own to govern all institutions like trade, science, education, space, research etc. They don’t have enough know how and they end up taking all these sectors down, which are key to any nations development.
 
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I fully support the military "ONE RULE" NOW in Pakistan after seeing people still believe that a core to corrupt, convict, and blackmailer NS is a saint and a "Politician". Every country has different dynamics whereas, in Pakistan, we have strong foreign interference. Our politicians are mafia. They are compromised and playing in the hands of the international establishment. Thanks to the last tenure of NS who cleared my doubts. These criminals in the form of politicians have no democratic credentials nor their minds and politics are based on democracy. We have seen how he delt against the Army for no reason. On one end you're continuously poking your nose in others' internal matters and decision making despite knowing that you don't have the power to face them once they turned against you. But wait, that panga provides these political bigots a lifeline to take advantage of circumstances and fool their illiterate brain-dead alien supporters' by driving a narrative meray khelaaf conspiracy ki hey fooj nay. The fact of the matter is, these criminals are the real culprit of our worst democracy. Army brought them into power to run the state but instead of focusing on the governance, these convicts start challenging the state upright without any credible performance. Look what kind of laws they've passed in the past 10 years. You will clearly understand the intentions from 18 amendments (blackmail state whenever you ask them about the taxpayer money) to dual nationality.
 
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