I am a tough negotiator, let me save money: Parrikar on Rafale deal

[ito]

Let him beat his chest for a while and then sign the deal claiming he has saved you billions. Let him be a poltican.

Billions?? I guess if he is going to save it will be some 100 or 200 crores. Again if MMRCA would have been inducted on time in 2001, India would have got 126 fighters for 10 billion. Now we are getting 36 fighters for 7 billion. Time has value too, that Parrikar seem to forget.

 

[dadeechi]

India and france both can afford to wait. Given that americans have just landed, makes it more interesting. Things get hyped up but does not we should fall head over heals to get it done just for sake of it.

Absolutely.

RAFALE vs F16 vs F/A-18 competition for MII component is getting very interesting.

The 36 off shelf order of RAFALE is stuck for due to the pending negotiations on the MII component.

 

[Abingdonboy]

RAFALE vs F16 vs F/A-18 competition for MII component is getting very interesting.

It's actually not interesting at all considering that the F-16 and F-18 offers are in no way desirable, it's a cheap tactic from MP to dangle some imaginary outsider threat infront of Dassualt, I just hope they bite and this entire debacle can be put to an end sooner rather than later.

Starting an "MMRCA 2.0" would cost the IAF years it does not have just to reach the same decsion- the Rafale.

 

[dadeechi]

It's actually not interesting at all considering that the F-16 and F-18 offers are in no way desirable, it's a cheap tactic from MP to dangle some imaginary outsider threat infront of Dassualt, I just hope they bite and this entire debacle can be put to an end sooner rather than later.

Starting an "MMRCA 2.0" would cost the IAF years it does not have just to reach the same decsion- the Rafale.

No it is not dangling US offerings to negotiate with the French. There are some serious negotiations going on regarding F16s+ F-35Cs package.

 

[Indika]

France may be able to wait (they are getting more orders all over the world) but the IAF is in no postion to wait, they have been screaming out for new jets for more than a decade now and only MKIs have been inducted. Right now the SQN strenght is dropping like a stone, it could be as low as 24 from a sanctioned strength of 42.

Its not longer a case of what the airforce needs but also wants of foreign policy. That is keeping every one interested but also maximizing our bargaining potential and influence in foreign policy. The thinking in south block is that war is not imminent and they can go slow. Chinese will not pull the trigger as it will push India into US embrace. The indian govt thinks they can invest that capital else where and get better ROI.

End result govt thinks it can wait,wait,wait . But of course it can lead to "yudh kale shastra abhyasam" but life is all about taking risk.

 

[Abingdonboy]

No it is not dangling US offerings to negotiate with the French. There are some serious negotiations going on regarding F16s+ F-35Cs package.

It very much is my friend, the IAF has absolutely no interest in either the F-16 or F-18 and by the MoD's and now GoI's own rules they would not be eligable for "Make in India" as they do not offer the requsite high end ToT (on radars, engines and EW systems), this is something I have just had confirmed to me via email by a friend of mine who works in this industry. Remember the DM's comments about making the F-22 in India? Obviously they were meant in jest but they conveyed the messege- India is only interested in critical tech transfer, not token "screw driver" ToT that has chracterised such deals in the past.

As such, no part of the US offer holds much value, but are being entertained right now purely to coerce the French BUT I have also heard something rather interesting that the Rafale MII part is being leveraged for many other aspects including UCAV and SSN partnerships.

+ India will never get the F-35 junk.

Its not longer a case of what the airforce needs but also wants of foreign policy. That is keeping every one interested but also maximizing our bargaining potential and influence in foreign policy. The thinking in south block is that war is not imminent and they can go slow. Chinese will not pull the trigger as it will push India into US embrace. The indian govt thinks they can invest that capital else where and get better ROI.

End result govt thinks it can wait,wait,wait . But of course it can lead to "yudh kale shastra abhyasam" but life is all about taking risk.

I'll post a few of my comments over the past few days to argue against the notion that the GoI can "go slow" right now or that there is a better ROI to be made with the US:

This is a very weak argument sir. It is not just a question to responding to the security threat (which by the way is becoming increasingly unfavourable for India contrary to what you seem to have asserted) but also a question of flight safety. Today MiG-21s and 27s are in service that are decades past their life spans and need to be replaced or does the "geo-poltical climate" negate that requirement also?

The delay has to do with incompetence, let us not delude ourselves it is borne out of hardheaded clear decsion making to prioritise, if that was the case the military wouldn't be returning billions in unspent funds every year.

Against a sanctioned strength of 42 fighter SQNs the IAF curently has less than 30 (some say it is as low as 24), this isn't about geo-poltical climates but minimum force levels. Threats can emerge at an instant before you have time to raise the requsite force levels and fighter jets take a LONG time to induct, this is why you have sanctioned strength, force levels, standing militaries and capability benchmarking. To say "we will only do X when the situation necessitates it" is all that is wrong with reactive decsion making that plagues India.

How can you possible say that? Boeing are in no postion to promise ToT- that has to go through the US Congress and government who have refused to transfer any such crtical tech even to their allies, they won't even sell the F-22 to their closest friends. India has no chance of getting ToT for the most critical parts of the F-18.

Then there are other issues:

1) Price, the generally held misconcpetion is that the F-18E/F will be massively cheaper than the Rafale but this has no basis in facts. As @Taygibay has pointed out, the price for Rafales is pretty reasonable:

https://defence.pk/threads/real-jet-fighter-prices-rafale-f-35-2015-16.423797/

The RAAF's 24 F-18 SHs cost them around $250 USD per plance

2) Boeing has said they will retain full sovereign control over any Indian F-18 production line meaning there would be little industrial benefits for the Indian aerospace industry and Boeing would be the sole beneficary.

3) Like every other US origin military product the F-18s (and every single nut, bolt, accessory, display etc) would be subject to USG and Congress clearance and would be at their whim, look at the trouble the PAF has in getting just 8 F-16s from them, do you want this for the IAF? Do you want a frontline combat system that is controlled by a foreign entity to such a degree?

4) The F-18 LOST the MMRCA the first tie around on TECHNICAL grounds, what's changed now?

5) Like all US equipment these birds would come with increidbly restrictive and intrusive end-user agreements ie IAF would have no soverign control of their own assets, there would be sealed compartments that only Boeing officals could look at and the USG would control/monitor the movements of these assets. Considering this is a strategic purchase this set of rules is not congruent with that goal and what about nuclear delviery? Do you think the US would allow these birds to be used for such a role? Not a chance.



Boeing are trying to pawn off a redundant product on some unsuspecting customer (like LM with the F-16) now the market for the F-18 has all but dried up- India is the last hope they have. Conversly, the Rafale has a clear and well supported future road map well into the future that the IAF would benefit from greatly over the life of their birds. This is a last ditch effort for Boeing.


So the Boeing offer is for an inferior product at arguably little discount with no tangible industrial benefits and yet it is still a better deal than Dassualt's? How does this work?

He is speaking in line with what the DM has said but has not indicated this means a second type of fighter just a dedicated MII line- remember the 36 Rafales are coming off the shelf so "second line" makes NO sense whatsoever. The IAF has no interest in inducting a second type and just 36 Rafales- that just isn't economical for an airforce the size of the IAF.


Exactly and it is a proven fact given the IN has shown no interest in the F-18 for their future carriers. Dassualt has breifed the IN on the other hand and given the IN wants as much commonality with the IAF as possible, their snub of the F-18 clearly shows what chances the IN beleives the F-18 offer has in India.


Either back it up or don't make such declarative statements.

I don't understand the compulsion from som many to complicate things, as the saying goes the simplest solution is often the best.

As such, as we have been promting for so long the result will be the simplest:

1)MKI--->FGFA (Nasik production line of HAL, FGFA to be in service from 2025/6)
2) LCA (under HAL with the potential for a second line to be added, intially 8/year but ramped up to 16/year from 2018 )
3)AMCA (under devlopment, to enter service by 2030)
4) Rafale (production line in India run with an Indian private partner with full ToT that will ensure 90% availability)

This mix will replace the MiG-21s, MiG-27s, Jaguars, Mirage 2000s and MiG-29s. Adding a seconf MMRCA type makes 0 sense whatsoever, AFs all over the world are reducing their fighter types, why should the IAF buck this trend? What is so unique about the IAF?

@Techy I understand you bro

As for:

It is a throwaway line that doesn't mean anything really. I guess Raha is just parroting what the DM/MoD has told him to say because this is the exact line the DM has used a number of times. I suppose the intention is to be ambiguious in line with MP's pressure tactics with Dassualt.

The way i read this comment is that the first line of fighter aircraft is the LCA because there is ZERO other new production line for fighter aircraft being established right now is there? And thus the MoD will select whether it is Dassualt, Boeing, LM or SAAB that will produce the second fighter line in India but as @PARIKRAMA has pointed out- Dassualt remains in pole position for this. It seems almost unfathomable that anyone else would get this deal, the others all come with significant downsides, the Rafale/IAF, India/France/Dassualt partnership objectively seems to be (by far) the best option on the table AND the option that has progressed the furthest.

I would concede that Boeing probably is in second place behind the Rafale offer but it still has next to no chance:


1) Dassualt
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
2)Boeing
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
3) SAAB
.
.
.
.
.
4) Lockhead Martin

I've been saying it for a while, MP is using this deal to play at being "tough" and is using some very exotic (but immature) tactics which is why the door has now suddenly been opened to SAAB, Boeing and LM. I hope this nonsense leads to a good deal sooner rather than later because this is getting very tiring indeed and just for 36 jets, we need to move onto the FAR bigger requiremnt for 100++ MMRCA.

Please do read all of them in full my friend.


@PARIKRAMA

 

[Taygibay]

And how much he is going to save?

Rupees ... OH! and face! Of course!

Sorry, still good night, Tay.

 

[ito]

Rupees ... OH! and face! Of course!

Sorry, still good night, Tay.

Yes in rupees!

If you say you are tough negotiator without getting any results for years, you come across as indecisive and not as negotiator. Negotiators close deals and not drag things.

Anyway, good night!

 

[Taygibay]

^^^ What I meant exactly! -----»» [ ]

 

[Archie]

I fear Rafale acquisition is going the way of Jaguar deal
A fighter which was requested by the Airforce in 1968 , gets inducted in 1982, by which time The world was moving to 4th Gen and India had to hastily order Mig29s and Mirage 2000 to keep pace with Pak getting F16

 

[Dungeness]

He is a tough negotiator all right, but he just enjoys negotiation a little too much so that he just forgot why he is negotiating in the first place. This is not negotiation. This guy is bargaining like a flea market vendor.

 

[$@rJen]

They Signed Apache & Chinook Deal.Soon PM Modi will Sign for Spike ATGM & MR SAM during Israel visit . Point is Dassault has same level of Fault in this MMRCA Saga Like MoD or DM.

they had to sign Apche&chinook deal because it was already postponed by Indian request for more than 10 times.. the Americans were impatient they said to increase the cost if india hadn't signed the deal in given time.

About ATGM with Israel!! its been dragging forever by UPA and now the current gov. we might see some light when modi visits Israel or else nothing...... that's it other than it MP did nothing but talk and giving out chest thumping interviews... get this guy off of DM chair.. put someone who knows about the military issues with military history...

MP is wasting the precious time, i don't believe this guy was in IIT

Let him beat his chest for a while and then sign the deal claiming he has saved you billions. Let him be a poltican.

Dude "for a while" is taking too long... even whe he is going to sign the deal the price would be what was set by the french... i wish this guy to b removed from DM position

 

[Awesome Indian]

@Abingdonboy which UCAV you are talking about?

 

[Immortan.Joe]

+ India will never get the F-35 junk.

I digress.

F-35C ,if inducted is going to have major problems. First its LCC is very high; second, no ToT would be available for F-35; Third, there would be severe limitations in scope of usage; Fourth, there would be US technicians and officials present on Indian bases; Fifth, we would need LM's assistance even for day to day maintenance; Sixth, it would need permissions/Encryption keys from LM from time to time making us dependent on USA/LM.

So if we look at F-35C alone, it is a strict no-no.

But let's say if USA is ready to transfer Nuclear reactor tech for IAC-II, or provide consultancy for same (as first one is not allowed by their domestic laws), won't it be better to accept F-35C as aircraft that would fly from IAC-2 (Around 70 in number), if it comes as a package.

If IAC-2 is nuclear, be sure sir that it would be a crippled carrier. Every time a country makes a generational leap in technology, there are many issues with that technology. IAC-2 ,if nuclear, would similarly be ridden with problems which would be sorted out so that its follow-on orders do not have them. Flying a Aircraft that is somehow restricted from IAC-2 would not be such a big issue as its efficacy would be lower with or without F-35Cs.

I don't think that it is wise to go with F-35Cs just for EMALS. F-35Cs may be better than Rafael-M in its capabilities, but that difference does not justify cost difference, and both our adversaries have planes which are inferior to Rafael so we do not need better plane than Rafael for our needs.

Here if French provide consultancy for Nuclear propulsion too, I think it would solve most of IN problems as long as USA does not throw a fit ("We are not going to transfer EMALS if you take help from France" type of fit)

Rupees ... OH! and face! Of course!

Sorry, still good night, Tay.

And reputation.


Most of people in India do not even know that a CAG exist. This is a department of accounts in which people have same interest as they have in watching paint dry, but being an accountant (and if last CAG is to go by, an attention wh0re too) it could audit same project in such a way that its report could give an illusion of massive kickbacks, even in a clean deal.

It has done so in recent past, so government is extremely cautious in big deals now.

 

[mirage]

He is a tough negotiator all right, but he just enjoys negotiation a little too much so that he just forgot why he is negotiating in the first place. This is not negotiation. This guy is bargaining like a flea market vendor.

free press and media .
BTW i am confident that mr defense minister parikar will crack a good deal ultimately keeping in mind MII and other important issues relating to the technology and potency of acquisitions which Bharat can gain during any defense acquisitions .