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How Vietnamese still suffer thanks to America. Documentary

Yes, I will admit that the Tet Offensive was quite revolutionary. Tho the Tet Offensive was a tactical failure (all Viet Cong units were repulsed and annihilated by South Vietnamese and American military units), it was a psychological blow to the troops. Its just ingenious how the North Vietnamese Army and Viet Cong dug trenches, tunnels to evade American strategic bombing, and local patrols.

Had the South Vietnamese Government under President Ngo Dinh Diem enacted the same offensive policies into North Vietnam, this might have taken the fight in the north, far from the South and this would have prevented the civilian casualties experienced in South Vietnam. In Fact, the South Vietnamese should have utilized Laos and to an extent Cambodia to pursue a pincer offensive to the north.

Unfortunately, they enacted a defensive doctrine. In war, offensive is the best defense.
Yeah, thats the tragedy for any countries who side wt USA. Unlike Soviet who allowed N.Vn to do any things and gave a full support VN , the US only consider their 'allies' as Dogs and treat them like dogs, too.

Thats why S.Vn fall.
 
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Yes, I will admit that the Tet Offensive was quite revolutionary. Tho the Tet Offensive was a tactical failure (all Viet Cong units were repulsed and annihilated by South Vietnamese and American military units), it was a psychological blow to the troops. Its just ingenious how the North Vietnamese Army and Viet Cong dug trenches, tunnels to evade American strategic bombing, and local patrols.

Had the South Vietnamese Government under President Ngo Dinh Diem enacted the same offensive policies into North Vietnam, this might have taken the fight in the north, far from the South and this would have prevented the civilian casualties experienced in South Vietnam. In Fact, the South Vietnamese should have utilized Laos and to an extent Cambodia to pursue a pincer offensive to the north.

Unfortunately, they enacted a defensive doctrine. In war, offensive is the best defense.
That's only applied to case when you have enough manpower and resources to carry out attacks. With US helps, SVN should have just unified the whole VN, but then against the ones behind NVN (China and USSR) were not known for fair play and stuff. Before you know it VN war could have turned into the second Korean war.
 
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Yeah, thats the tragedy for any countries who side wt USA. Unlike Soviet who allowed N.Vn to do any things and gave a full support VN , the US only consider their 'allies' as Dogs and treat them like dogs, too.

Thats why S.Vn fall.

This is why it is important to have a strong military arm, and a strong economic arm. South Vietnam was poised to become an Asian Tiger. In fact, political and economic analysts have written reports that South Vietnam would have been another Singapore or Taiwan, had it not collapsed to the North.

The problem was that tho South Vietnam was economically superior to the North, it had a smaller armed forces; and it did not take advantage of the Cambodian and Laotian border regions for offensive strikes into the North. While the South had such reservations, the North Vietnamese Military Command did not.

Had Vietnam been united under South Vietnam's Democratic Government, no doubt Vietnam would have been a economic power house in South East Asia. She could have been another South Korea, or Japan.
 
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Yeah, thats the tragedy for any countries who side wt USA. Unlike Soviet who allowed N.Vn to do any things and gave a full support VN , the US only consider their 'allies' as Dogs and treat them like dogs, too.

Thats why S.Vn fall.
Dude, whatever they were, they were still VNese. Some SVN presidents tried to shake off US colars, and got couped by US puppet generals. We are the victors, we should show mercy on them.
 
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This is why it is important to have a strong military arm, and a strong economic arm. South Vietnam was poised to become an Asian Tiger. In fact, political and economic analysts have written reports that South Vietnam would have been another Singapore or Taiwan, had it not collapsed to the North.

The problem was that tho South Vietnam was economically superior to the North, it had a smaller armed forces; and it did not take advantage of the Cambodian and Laotian border regions for offensive strikes into the North. While the South had such reservations, the North Vietnamese Military Command did not.

Had Vietnam been united under South Vietnam's Democratic Government, no doubt Vietnam would have been a economic power house in South East Asia. She could have been another South Korea, or Japan.
We r not big countries, so we have to choose btween getting rich wt US's 'help' or get a real freedom wt Soviet's help.....and VNese chose real freedom.

Thats why Vn can enrich uranium now when SK-Singapore-JP can not coz u guys dont have real freedom when under US's control.

Dude, whatever they were, they were still VNese. Some SVN presidents tried to shake off US colars, and got couped by US puppet generals. We are the victors, we should show mercy on them.
When I lived in Sai Gon, my ex-girl friend was a daughter of a military officer of former S.VN govt, unluckily, we broke up for some reasons . What I mean here that I do love all VNese , I dont care if they worked for US or not.

But the Truth can be changed, US treated them like dogs and abandoned them when they didnt need those dogs any more. To US, maybe only Israel is their real friends, thats all.
 
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We r not big countries, so we have to choose btween getting rich wt US's 'help' or get a real freedom wt Soviet's help.....and VNese chose real freedom.

Thats why Vn can enrich uranium now when SK-Singapore-JP can not coz u guys dont have real freedom when under US's control.

Taiwan , a nation that is 1/4th the size (population terms) of Vietnam has a higher GDP than Vietnam. There is no reason why Vietnam could have matched or even exceeded Taiwan. After all, most of the classic Asian Tigers are Confucian societies -- eg, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan.

Vietnam belongs to the Confucian East Asian Family of Nations. It is different from other nations in South East Asia which have a different cultural milieu. In my opinion, there is no reason to deny Vietnam could have even surpassed Taiwan or South Korea in term of economic power. Had she (Vietnam) been a democratic nation.....
 
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Taiwan , a nation that is 1/4th the size (population terms) of Vietnam has a higher GDP than Vietnam. There is no reason why Vietnam could have matched or even exceeded Taiwan. After all, most of the classic Asian Tigers are Confucian societies -- eg, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan.

Vietnam belongs to the Confucian East Asian Family of Nations. It is different from other nations in South East Asia which have a different cultural milieu. In my opinion, there is no reason to deny Vietnam could have even surpassed Taiwan or South Korea in term of economic power. Had she (Vietnam) been a democratic nation.....
Just bcz US boss feed them well without US's 'help' TW would still be a poor fishing village, S.Korean would still starve to death in every winter like the past in history. Did u read the fable 'the dog and the wolf' yet ?? U like the dog or the wolf ?? and why ??

The Dog and the Wolf


A GAUNT Wolf was almost dead with hunger when he happened to meet a House-dog who was passing by. “Ah, Cousin,” said the Dog. “I knew how it would be; your irregular life will soon be the ruin of you. Why do you not work steadily as I do, and get your food regularly given to you?” 1
“I would have no objection,” said the Wolf, “if I could only get a place.” 2
“I will easily arrange that for you,” said the Dog; “come with me to my master and you shall share my work.” 3
So the Wolf and the Dog went towards the town together. On the way there the Wolf noticed that the hair on a certain part of the Dog’s neck was very much worn away, so he asked him how that had come about. 4
“Oh, it is nothing,” said the Dog. “That is only the place where the collar is put on at night to keep me chained up; it chafes a bit, but one soon gets used to it.” 5
“Is that all?” said the Wolf. “Then good-bye to you, Master Dog.”
“BETTER STARVE FREE THAN BE A FAT SLAVE.”
 
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Just bcz US boss feed them well. Did u read the fable 'the dog and the wolf' yet ?? U like the dog or the wolf ?? and why ??


“BETTER STARVE FREE THAN BE A FAT SLAVE.”

Your response is too simplistic , my friend. The realities on the ground, namely, the dynamic of nations are more complex.
 
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Your response is too simplistic , my friend. The realities on the ground, namely, the dynamic of nations have a more complex dynamic.
We experienced the time when siding wt US, we know they treat their allies(except Israel) like dogs, thats why we chose to side wt Soviet to get independence , no need to lie to me, bro.
 
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true, countries like Japan, Korea and Phillipines are watching dogs of the USA. USA can pick any one of them for c0ck-licking
 
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Taiwan , a nation that is 1/4th the size (population terms) of Vietnam has a higher GDP than Vietnam. There is no reason why Vietnam could have matched or even exceeded Taiwan. After all, most of the classic Asian Tigers are Confucian societies -- eg, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan.

Vietnam belongs to the Confucian East Asian Family of Nations. It is different from other nations in South East Asia which have a different cultural milieu. In my opinion, there is no reason to deny Vietnam could have even surpassed Taiwan or South Korea in term of economic power. Had she (Vietnam) been a democratic nation.....
There is the US image behind those classic Asian Tigers. Even now I see Singapore is more US friendly than China friendly. There are several reasons why VN cannot match those tigers. One huge reason is that VN just joined WTO in 2005, I believe, and from then had access to the world market. Even now VN goods meet up with difficulty from US market, a profitable market.

As a VNese I cannot openly talk about politic and stuffs, or will I say any anti-communist comments. But I believe stability is much more important than political system.
 
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The crux of his -- and mine -- argument is that while countries under US influence do not always economically prospered, the communist model consistently failed.

The democracy-capitalist combination allows those 'other socio-cultural' factors to influence the countries to the tune that some succeeded and some failed.

I take it that we both agree that being under US influence/democracy-capitalist model does not guarantee success but other key socio-cultural/historical factors are necessary for success.

I took it further and argued that the socio-culture/historical factors are what really mattered. Case in point: PRC economically flourishing without the democracy-capitalist combination. You might say that that model won't be sustainable, and many doomsday anti-PRC economists have argued the same for years, but we have yet to see it. So we'll have to leave this open for now.

The communist model removed those 'other socio-cultural' factors, as they are aberrant to the centralized control method of societal planning, so that under comparison to the democracy-capitalist model, communist countries have no choice but to fail.

I disagree with this. The Soviet Union or PRC during the cultural revolution did not tried to remove these socio-cultural factors and left a cultural vacuum. Rather, they were trying to impose a new social-cultural ethos onto their population that they believe would result in human flourishing, not just economically, but flourishing on every faucet of society.

Now I disagree with some of the social ethos that they were trying to impose (and it failed) . But I agree with them that having the "correct" socio-cultural ethos is necessary for human flourishing, including economic flourishing. You also agree that having the "right" socio-cultural factors are necessary for economic success no?

You may argue that an Authoritarian system inhibit this socio-cultural factors, but we already showed some counter-examples such as the early days of SK under state-directed capitalism.

The problem I see with fiscal right wingers is their emphasises of the democracy-capitalist model over other more important factors for success. I've already argued that the US influenced/democracy-capitalist model is neither necessary nor sufficient for economic success. I argued in another thread that the reason why right-wingers argued for their free-market model is because they are already in an advantage position and promoting their model elsewhere would only increase their advantages and not necessarily be an advantage for other people. And if we consider other aspect of society into the debate, we might see that the US model is demerital if everyone adopts it.

You know the argument by statisticians, that the earth will not have enough resources to sustain us all if every country is as developed as the US.

Do not take China's economic success as the middle-of-the-road or compromise between the two ends. The reality is that the democracy-capitalist model is the compromise while Marxism-communism is the extreme. If history is instructive in any way, the state directed capitalist method do not last long. The method produced a string of fast initial successes, but over the long term, the method is unsustainable as England and a host of Continental powers learned the hard way. Now we see Russia and China repeating the same mistakes.

I've never believed that there have existed a truly extreme right wing system. I argued elsewhere that most fiscal right wingers have double standard. That is, they argue for Authoritarian rule where it is necessary for their interest, such as external and internal security, Justice system, etc. But when it comes to trade and business (areas that they have an advantage) they become anti-authoritarian.
 
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American sphere of influence:
West Germany, capitalist, prosperous
South Korea, capitalist, prosperous
Japan, capitalist, prosperous

Soviet sphere of influence:
East Germany, communist, impoverished
Belarus, communist, impoverished
Vietnam, communist, impoverished

Chinese sphere of influence:
North Korea, communist, impoverished

Even China under communism was impoverished.

This is not a difficult decision to analyze. America promotes capitalism, and it has no territorial designs on Vietnam. The question isn't why Vietnam is making this choice, the question is why it took so long.

No, the North Vietnamese were the victims of something far more insidious, namely, the sphere of influence of the Soviet Union. The South was under the sphere of influence of the US. Witness the results, even decades later:

View attachment 73090

According to this RAND study, South Vietnam's GDP grew at a CAGR of 15% between 1960-1967, and in 1968, had a GDP/capita comparable with South Korea, despite dedicating three times the percent of budget to defense that South Korea did. We all know how South Korea turned out, and we can only speculate about South Vietnam, but we do know how a unified Vietnam turned out under the Communists (i.e. Soviet influence).

It is a probabilistic scenario. A country under US influence is more likely to succeed than one under Soviet/ChiCom influence, and the record is quite good.

Your sample size is too small to make a probabilistic case. You ignored other variables that can influence the success rate. Furthermore, you ignored samples that are contrary to your thesis.

It is a straw man to say that my argument implied guaranteed success, since I made no such claim, since it is impossible, and since the US cannot even guarantee itself economic success, much less other countries.

I've never interpreted your argument as saying US influence guarantees success. I simply pointed out that you only considered one factor for success and you credited the US influence for success of various countries without considering other socio-cultural/historical factors.

I've quoted your posts again on top, read it for yourself.

You cannot view the world in black and white, or reduce the economic model to such simplistic terms. I never claimed that the US was the sole factor, and neither should you.

Again, read your quote above for yourself. You are the one who view the world in black and white (US influence vs non-US influence, or Capitalism vs non-capitalism). I was the one who tried to bring in other socio-cultural elements into the debate. Other members and I tried to explain the failure of the Philippines from a social and historical perspective. Other members talked about the growth SK and other Euro countries had while they were under state-directed capitalism. While you made this kind of post:

American sphere of influence:
West Germany, capitalist, prosperous
South Korea, capitalist, prosperous
Japan, capitalist, prosperous

Soviet sphere of influence:
East Germany, communist, impoverished
Belarus, communist, impoverished
Vietnam, communist, impoverished

Chinese sphere of influence:
North Korea, communist, impoverished

Even China under communism was impoverished.

This is not a difficult decision to analyze. America promotes capitalism,

You also continued to have this black and white view in the other post with Fairandunbiased. You said that Vietnam under French colonialism was better off than it is now, and you credit it to capitalism under French colonialism. But you again failed to include other social elements or factors that existed under a colonial system.

You will need to prove that my the essence of my argument implied that the US was the single determining factor . You will also need to show that I claimed that US influence was necessary and sufficient for economic growth.

Read your above quote again, you only mentioned the US influence as a factor. I pointed out that you haven't included any other factors.

I didn't interpret you arguing that US influences is necessary or sufficient. That was my own arguments.
 
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