How to deploy Air defence systems? Learning from Ukraine (in Pakistan Context)

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

In the matters of defense the alternatives are inexhaustible....

KEMANKEŞ Mini Intelligent Cruise Missile

KEMANKEŞ is a mini intelligent cruise missile developed nationally and originally by Baykar to be operationalized against strategic objectives. KEMANK

baykartech.com

An alternative from Baykar for the enemy AD identified by a plethora of systems: mini intelligent cruse missile KEMANKESH, carried by TB-2s or Akinjis.....

The Artificial Intelligence Assisted Optical Guidance System delivers the ability to identify and engage targets with pinpoint accuracy, even under challenging conditions. Moreover, KEMANKEŞ is able to operate during the day and night and is durable against any attempts of electronic jamming due to its Anti-jamming capabilities.

Basic flight performance criteria

• 0.7 Mach (720 km/h) Max Speed
• Jet Engine
• 0.3 Mach (360km/h) Cruise Speed
• 18.000 Feet Operational Altitude
• 1 Hour Endurance
• EO Camera
• 1.73 Meters Length
• 0.4 Meters Hight
• 1.25 Meters Wingspan
• 30 Kilogram Weight
• 6 Kilogram Payload Capacity
• 200 km+ Operation Range

Camera System

• 2-Axis Stabilization
• Range Up To 2.8 Kilometer Laser Range Finder
• 59.13°-1.10°(h) Field of View
• 36x Optical Zoom

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Layed systems of which the core sites are kept mobile.

The Ukrainian Patriot is protected by layers of SHORADs. This is also how the Ukranians kept their S-300s active which was to keep them mobile between two prepared sites.

Secondly is intel and emissions control - the Ukrainians know from NATO and additional Human intelligence sources when the Russians are going to launch a SEAD sortie - or whenever their Iranian Suicide drones are being readied so the cycle their emissions accordingly.

The Indians are practicing the same tactic for their S-400s. You don’t spend billions on a system and not expect it to be a big red marker.

For Pakistan - that means keeping its Hq-9Ps on the move between preset locations and rotating them in random patterns. Then having either HQ-16s forming a net close to them - with some SHORAD and AAA near these sites.

That keeps any threat guessing where they are in a moment of time unless they get intel on a location and then cue a substantial DEAD package or rocket artillery.

Distance applies to both India and Pakistan so the Chutiyapay comments from Bhaktoras should be ignored - saving a S-400 while driving it back East doesn’t mean its effective engagement area stays at the same positions if these gandoos had any humility to admit that.

Yes, I have no shame to admit that i was trolling.

Because every alternative day, people here post new thread about S400 missile defense systems and how can easily been destroyed. So my comments for too.

Coming to original point:

I still believe that pakistani most big cities are near by border, India is having huge stock of missiles with 150 to 300 km from prithvi to prahlay, if I add rockets too..

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/ind...-at-370-missiles-a-rocket-force-in-the-making.

It will be very difficult for pak sam to intercept those coming missiles. It wil be very challenging.

So basically, I believe you need a layer of defense for effective protect, you can not rely on one defense system. This is what india is working on it.. But unfortunate form pakistan, due to cities are closed with borders, it makes more difficult.

That may be so cities are close to border but would India dare attack a Pakistani city? I didn't think so.

Question is why not if pakistan dare to attack on any indian city including kashmir?

 

[MastanKhan]

Goes both ways doesn't it.

Hi,

It does not go both ways---.

Indians cities close to border are populated by sikhs---.

Hindu india would love better to have the sikhs be slaughtered by pakistani attack.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Hi,

It does not go both ways---.

Indians cities close to border are populated by sikhs---.

Hindu india would love better to have the sikhs be slaughtered by pakistani attack.

Bro we couldn't or shouldn't care less. Sikhs also are overrepresented in the mil or atleast were till recently.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Yes, I have no shame to admit that i was trolling.

Because every alternative day, people here post new thread about S400 missile defense systems and how can easily been destroyed. So my comments for too.

Coming to original point:

I still believe that pakistani most big cities are near by border, India is having huge stock of missiles with 150 to 300 km from prithvi to prahlay, if I add rockets too..

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/ind...-at-370-missiles-a-rocket-force-in-the-making.

It will be very difficult for pak sam to intercept those coming missiles. It wil be very challenging.

So basically, I believe you need a layer of defense for effective protect, you can not rely on one defense system. This is what india is working on it.. But unfortunate form pakistan, due to cities are closed with borders, it makes more difficult.



Question is why not if pakistan dare to attack on any indian city including kashmir?

In the Ruso Ukrainian conflict we have seen how S400s aren't indestructible have we not? Ukraine AF has nothing even close to what PAF has. This conflict has mostly been ground and air attack (comprehensive use of missiles/uavs/rockets). And even Russian capital hasn't been immune.

Now I'd imagine india doesn't have as much coverage or capabilities compared to Russia.


As for cities

You have missiles, do you think Pak doesnt? Fatah 2 itself is said to be over 240km.
Fatah 1 is 160 something.
A-100 is 130.

Than there are short ranged battlefield ballistic missiles aswell as cruise missiles.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

In the Ruso Ukrainian conflict we have seen how S400s aren't indestructible have we not? Ukraine AF has nothing even close to what PAF has. This conflict has mostly been ground and air attack (comprehensive use of missiles/uavs/rockets). And even Russian capital hasn't been immune.

Now I'd imagine india doesn't have as much coverage or capabilities compared to Russia.


As for cities

View attachment 939601View attachment 939602View attachment 939603View attachment 939604

You have missiles, do you think Pak doesnt? Fatah 2 itself is said to be over 240km.
Fatah 1 is 160 something.
A-100 is 130.

Than there are short ranged battlefield ballistic missiles aswell as cruise missiles.

When i said that sam defence systems are 100% full proof.

This is the reason you a multiple layer of missile defence systems.

Even then, it wouldn't be 100% full proof but the case of India vs Pakistan.

India will always have upper hands due to geographical advantages and distance of the cities little far from the borders.

And multi layer systems will be providing you probability that might you can able to success as well, this s the most reason, USA china, Russia and even India is working on it.they are not idiots to waste money on it if no chance of success, and the same reason Pakistani purchased the Sam's from china.

They way India is working on Sam's defence systems, it will definitely goona hard for Pakistan if war happens in the future

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

In the Ruso Ukrainian conflict we have seen how S400s aren't indestructible have we not? Ukraine AF has nothing even close to what PAF has. This conflict has mostly been ground and air attack (comprehensive use of missiles/uavs/rockets). And even Russian capital hasn't been immune.

Now I'd imagine india doesn't have as much coverage or capabilities compared to Russia.


As for cities

View attachment 939601View attachment 939602View attachment 939603View attachment 939604

You have missiles, do you think Pak doesnt? Fatah 2 itself is said to be over 240km.
Fatah 1 is 160 something.
A-100 is 130.

Than there are short ranged battlefield ballistic missiles aswell as cruise missiles.

02-27 has already proved who is what.....

 

[migflug]

Russo-Ukraine war has shown that the guided munitions are way to go. Much more effective than any drones while being reasonably cheap. They are also very difficult to counter if used in a swarm attack. Most nation will now focus a lot in these loitering munition in coming years.

 

[jhungary]

Ukraine has deployed Patriot defence system and Russia miserably failed to counter it.
So what are really the tactics Ukrainians applied to successfully deploy and use Air Defence Systems
While on the other hand, Russians got hits on their most advanced defence systems.
So what was difference in tactics used by both these countries?
@LeGenD
@SQ8
@jhungary
@PanzerKiel
And other knowledgeable members
Since Pakistan has deployed Long Range defence systems,it is necessary to take notes from this war especially regarding successful use of defence systems.

It's a defensive/offensive relationship, it's not really the same thing.

For the Russian, you would have to choose as an invading army to whether or not follow the SAM when you move, if you do so, you do it in a snail pace, and if you don't your asset is open to attack.

For the Ukrainian, they are the passive party, Russia needs to get inside, not the other way around, while Russia did occupied some Ukrainian land, but they were not that deep (on average 40-60km deep) which is more than enough to be covered by modern system. And when all you have to do is to wait for the Russian to come, your job will get a lot easier to do. Because you know which way the Russian is coming, and they can't teleport.

The problem for the Russian is that they do not have offensive SEAD capability, you can't just fly fighter in and trying to drop dumb bomb blind and think you can take care of your enemy air defence, if you do it, it will most likely be your enemy defence taking care of you. plus NATO is sharing intel with Ukraine, they can detect Russian aircraft as soon as they take off, that kind of AWACS are very useful and will make your day a lot easier.

 

[Dalit]

In the matters of defense the alternatives are inexhaustible....

KEMANKEŞ Mini Intelligent Cruise Missile

KEMANKEŞ is a mini intelligent cruise missile developed nationally and originally by Baykar to be operationalized against strategic objectives. KEMANK

baykartech.com

An alternative from Baykar for the enemy AD identified by a plethora of systems: mini intelligent cruse missile KEMANKESH, carried by TB-2s or Akinjis.....

The Artificial Intelligence Assisted Optical Guidance System delivers the ability to identify and engage targets with pinpoint accuracy, even under challenging conditions. Moreover, KEMANKEŞ is able to operate during the day and night and is durable against any attempts of electronic jamming due to its Anti-jamming capabilities.

Basic flight performance criteria

• 0.7 Mach (720 km/h) Max Speed
• Jet Engine
• 0.3 Mach (360km/h) Cruise Speed
• 18.000 Feet Operational Altitude
• 1 Hour Endurance
• EO Camera
• 1.73 Meters Length
• 0.4 Meters Hight
• 1.25 Meters Wingspan
• 30 Kilogram Weight
• 6 Kilogram Payload Capacity
• 200 km+ Operation Range

Camera System

• 2-Axis Stabilization
• Range Up To 2.8 Kilometer Laser Range Finder
• 59.13°-1.10°(h) Field of View
• 36x Optical Zoom

View attachment 939525

View attachment 939526

Turkiye is on another level.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Russo -ukranian war is not a real war scenario between two other nations---. This scenario is an exception in the happening.

Ukraine is surviving due to the intial blunder of Mr. Putin---who against all advise went soft---.

Secondly---ukraine is getting weapons from all the western powers put together as well as some asian connections as well.

This weapons supply won't happen again---.

So---country should stick with its original training---follow the basics---see what the enemy has and prepare for the combat accordingly---.

 

[Cash GK]

Hi,

It does not go both ways---.

Indians cities close to border are populated by sikhs---.

Hindu india would love better to have the sikhs be slaughtered by pakistani attack.

Pakistani panjabi will not hurt indian side panjabis...they respect each other

 

[LeGenD]

Ukraine has deployed Patriot defence system and Russia miserably failed to counter it.
So what are really the tactics Ukrainians applied to successfully deploy and use Air Defence Systems
While on the other hand, Russians got hits on their most advanced defence systems.
So what was difference in tactics used by both these countries?
@LeGenD
@SQ8
@jhungary
@PanzerKiel
And other knowledgeable members
Since Pakistan has deployed Long Range defence systems,it is necessary to take notes from this war especially regarding successful use of defence systems.

Ukrainian forces were originally using Russian-origin air defense systems such as Buk-M1, Osa, Strela-10, and S-300 variants but lost many pieces in the war. Ukraine had deployed a large number of S-300 systems but lost many launchers in the war.

1. Russia is using standoff munitions such as ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, and UAVs to strike at Kyiv and this was becoming a routine so Ukraine has deployed a combination of several NATO-origin air defense systems to protect Kyiv such as The Hawk, IRIS-T, NASAMS and Patriot. These air defense systems have met or exceeded performance expectations.

But Ukraine does not have sufficient NATO-origin air defense systems to protect all cities in the present. This capability gap might be plugged in the future but let's see.

2. Ukrainian forces are using relatively mobile Avenger, Gun trucks, Gepard, and Stinger to counter Russian helicopter gunships, jet fighters, and UAVs in various sectors.

3. Ukrainian forces are using HIMARS to take out all manner of Russian air defense systems on the ground when within range.

This is the Ukrainian side of picture for now.

Patriot is very advanced and capable air defense system in its current form. WE do not have any air defense system of this caliber in our inventory unfortunately. Pakistani air defense systems are similar to Russian-origin air defense systems and sourced from China.

HQ-9P = S-300+ level
HQ-16 = Buk-M2+ level
HQ-7B = Crotale+ level

Pakistani forces also use a variety of AA guns and Stinger types to protect troops on the ground. These can help counter UAVs and to lesser extent helicopters and jet fighters in some locations.

Pakistani forces rely more on the PAF for defense in fact. PAF is much better equipped than Ukrainian Air Force in its current form. Ukrainian Air Force is using storm shadow standoff munition to great effect though.

Pakistan is not facing a threat like Russia for now but this calculus will change in the near future.

 

[MastanKhan]

Ukrainian forces were originally using Russian-origin air defense systems such as Buk-M1, Osa, Strela-10, and S-300 variants but lost many pieces in the war. Ukraine had deployed a large number of S-300 systems but lost many launchers in the war.

1. Russia is using standoff munitions such as ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, and UAVs to strike at Kyiv and this was becoming a routine so Ukraine has deployed a combination of several NATO-origin air defense systems to protect Kyiv such as The Hawk, IRIS-T, NASAMS and Patriot. These air defense systems have met or exceeded performance expectations.

But Ukraine does not have sufficient NATO-origin air defense systems to protect all cities in the present. This capability gap might be plugged in the future but let's see.

2. Ukrainian forces are using relatively mobile Avenger, Gun trucks, Gepard, and Stinger to counter Russian helicopter gunships, jet fighters, and UAVs in various sectors.

3. Ukrainian forces are using HIMARS to take out all manner of Russian air defense systems on the ground when within range.

This is the Ukrainian side of picture for now.

Patriot is very advanced and capable air defense system in its current form. WE do not have any air defense system of this caliber in our inventory unfortunately. Pakistani air defense systems are similar to Russian-origin air defense systems and sourced from China.

HQ-9P = S-300+ level
HQ-16 = Buk-M2+ level
HQ-7B = Crotale+ level

Pakistani forces also use a variety of AA guns and Stinger types to protect troops on the ground. These can help counter UAVs and to lesser extent helicopters and jet fighters in some locations.

Pakistani forces rely more on the PAF for defense in fact. PAF is much better equipped than Ukrainian Air Force in its current form. Ukrainian Air Force is using storm shadow standoff munition to great effect though.

Pakistan is not facing a threat like Russia for now but this calculus will change in the near future.

Hi,

Ukraine did not face the REAL RUSSIAN threat---. Putin went totatlly against the advice of his generals---. They wanted quick action---a blitzkrieg----Putin went against their advise---.

He "ASSUMED" that ukraine will fall for peace right away---so he decided to go soft---.

Soon---ukraine will run out of ammunition.

 

[LeGenD]

Hi,

Ukraine did not face the REAL RUSSIAN threat---. Putin went totatlly against the advice of his generals---. They wanted quick action---a blitzkrieg----Putin went against their advise---.

He "ASSUMED" that ukraine will fall for peace right away---so he decided to go soft---.

Soon---ukraine will run out of ammunition.

Russian forces invaded Ukraine from six different directions and its invasion plan was well done. But Ukrainians began to fight back and Russian tanks are not survivable.

American tanks are survivable and troops can fight to hold ground even in less than ideal conditions.