What's new

How secular, really, is India?

Status
Not open for further replies.
The Intellctual Forum and their Thinking of Muslims.

New York City Indian American Intellectuals Forum (“Forum”) organized a Seminar titled “HOW TO COUNTER GLOBAL TERRORISM. Former FBI Consultant, a renowned Terrorism Expert Dr. Paul L. Williams was the chief Guest and the key note speaker of the seminar.
Mr. Kataria President of the Forum, said that the greatest danger to India’s stability and existence came from the rapidly increasing Muslim population. Tracing the History of India, Kataria said that the rise in the Muslim population was responsible for the Partition of India in 1947. Muslim population in India again is rising with leaps and bound. It is an irony of fate that there is no Uniform Civil Code for all Indians. It is also reported in media that Muslims do not believe in the concept of family planning.

Informing the audience he said in the world there are around 1.2 billion Muslims. Out of which approximately 45% Muslim population lives in the Indian Continent. Giving further details, he said that there are 150 million Muslims in India, 140 million Muslim in Bangladesh and roughly same number in Pakistan and Sri Lanka. The rising Muslim population, if not checked, will have disastrous consequences and deleterious effects on the Indian polity. This is a frightening scenario.
 
Yawn, anything else?

Just for you to Cheer up and stop dosing off:cheesy:


Ghatge (48), a Dalit farmer and a father of three, retired from the Railways a few years ago and moved home from Mumbai to farm on his family’s 5-acre plot here. He was murdered last week by upper-caste villagers who did not want him to dig a well on his own property.

It would have been the first well in Kulakjai village on land owned by a Dalit.

The police said Ghatge was hacked so violently that even the earth-moving machine he was using at the time was damaged. ‘They left him to die’ “They were armed with axes and iron rods. They attacked him and left him to bleed to death,” said Ghatge’s 21-year-old son Tushar, a law student at a local college.
 
1) Atheist chief ministers like from TN and WB open criticize Hindu gods and questions their belief can this happen in any other country with majority religion ?
2) Muslims are provided subsidies for their pilgrimage no such privilege for other religions does this mean India does not support its minorities ?
3) World renowned Muslim painter paint Hindu gods naked does any other religious people from other religions tolerate this ?
4) Few Danit leaders have published books which were allowed by government to be published heavily criticizing Hindu gods can such thing be imagined in your country? Hindu's are not allowed to publish such materials.
5) India's ruling party openly supports Muslims and still gets elected isn't this a sign of a secular society ? BJP which supports Hinduism infact was defeated if India were not secular then only Hindu parties would be ruling and India would have been declared a Hindu state.

Just ponder over above few facts, I am not saying India does not have blemishes like Gujarat or Ayodhya but still it is still proud of only democracy in the world which survived after independence against all odds and is continuously improving and doing great.
 
1) Atheist chief ministers like from TN and WB open criticize Hindu gods and questions their belief can this happen in any other country with majority religion ?

There is nothing called Hindu Gods, can you list ALL the Hindu gods you consider? Then we can discuss?

2) Muslims are provided subsidies for their pilgrimage no such privilege for other religions does this mean India does not support its minorities ?
T
here is nothing special, have you seeen Kumbh mela

Heard of Amarnath Yatra

Of all the thousands of Crore Paid in taxes...........Muslims are excluded from formal participation be it Jobs or Economy. So most of the money is spent on Hindus......you get it........Muslims pay but hardly recive.

3
) World renowned Muslim painter paint Hindu gods naked does any other religious people from other religions tolerate this ?

Yes the Secular India banished him from India and he is in Dubai

The same secular India is courting an Bangladeshi for publishing Anti-Islam material.

4) Few Danit leaders have published books which were allowed by government to be published heavily criticizing Hindu gods can such thing be imagined in your country? Hindu's are not allowed to publish such materials.


The so called Hindu gods told " Dalits" are made/Born from feet of Brahma, so they better do Scavenging for rest of your life.

What do you suppose to do such a god..........worship?

5
) India's ruling party openly supports Muslims and still gets elected isn't this a sign of a secular society ? BJP which supports Hinduism infact was defeated if India were not secular then only Hindu parties would be ruling and India would have been declared a Hindu state.

The Congress Brahmins acts as supportive to Muslims, RSS Brahmins hate Muslims..... so both win alternatevly.........seee Muslims are bad...........yeah I gree but not so bad... so both enjoy fruits of power.

Just ponder over above few facts, I am not saying India does not have blemishes like Gujarat or Ayodhya but still it is still proud of only democracy in the world which survived after independence against all odds and is continuously improving and doing great.


As i just rebuked you verbal diarrhea allied to intellectual constipation, you take your Jingoism to ***-shack. There you may find some one to digest your intellectual constipation.

Yeah This Hypocracy only happens in India
 
There is nothing called Hindu Gods, can you list ALL the Hindu gods you consider? Then we can discuss?

I am discussing about Lord RAM TN chief minister uttered derogatory remarks on him recently WB chief minister joinded him. Does your nation tolerate such behavior ?


here is nothing special, have you seeen Kumbh mela

Heard of Amarnath Yatra

Of all the thousands of Crore Paid in taxes...........Muslims are excluded from formal participation be it Jobs or Economy. So most of the money is spent on Hindus......you get it........Muslims pay but hardly recive.

I am talking about Haj subsidy not even pakistan offers its to its citizen are Hindu's offered subsidy for Kumbh or Amarnath yatra? I am not aware f Muslims not allowed to participate even if what you say is truth this must be done for law and order as any incident can easily flame up.

Yes the Secular India banished him from India and he is in Dubai

He is not bannished only some right wing activist have protest against him he is living in Dubai to escape controversies.

The same secular India is courting an Bangladeshi for publishing Anti-Islam material.

Bangladeshi activist has received death threats she is in India on Visa and has to undergo trouble of renewing it every six months. India is forced to provide the same due to its secular priciples.

The so called Hindu gods told " Dalits" are made/Born from feet of Brahma, so they better do Scavenging for rest of your life.

What do you suppose to do such a god..........worship?

I am not aware of what you are saying you might be refering to ancient texts
Dalit issue is more of vote bank in India see its leaders like Mayawati they are making mockery of Dalit issue.
Dalit issue may exists in remote villages but that is changing fast India has lots of Great Dalit leaders.
These are things are done by the people who follow Gods so its not God that is bad.

The Congress Brahmins acts as supportive to Muslims, RSS Brahmins hate Muslims..... so both win alternatevly.........seee Muslims are bad...........yeah I gree but not so bad... so both enjoy fruits of power.

Congress was always under Gandhi's after Nehru and they are not Hindu's Sonia Gandhi is a Christian her childerns are christians can you list Brahmin leaders ? if at all they are their they are not prominent and do not matter much.
Congress mostly has ruled India BJP was in power for few years his is contrary to your beliefs.

Yeah This Hypocracy only happens in India

Hypocracy happens only in India? but what about your country? or the world over? None of them is perfect.
 
I am talking about Haj subsidy not even pakistan offers its to its citizen are Hindu's offered subsidy for Kumbh or Amarnath yatra? I am not aware f Muslims not allowed to participate even if what you say is truth this must be done for law and order as any incident can easily flame up.



He is not bannished only some right wing activist have protest against him he is living in Dubai to escape controversies.



Bangladeshi activist has received death threats she is in India on Visa and has to undergo trouble of renewing it every six months. India is forced to provide the same due to its secular priciples.



I am not aware of what you are saying you might be refering to ancient texts
Dalit issue is more of vote bank in India see its leaders like Mayawati they are making mockery of Dalit issue.
Dalit issue may exists in remote villages but that is changing fast India has lots of Great Dalit leaders.
These are things are done by the people who follow Gods so its not God that is bad.



Congress was always under Gandhi's after Nehru and they are not Hindu's Sonia Gandhi is a Christian her childerns are christians can you list Brahmin leaders ? if at all they are their they are not prominent and do not matter much.
Congress mostly has ruled India BJP was in power for few years his is contrary to your beliefs.



Hypocracy happens only in India? but what about your country? or the world over? None of them is perfect.

As you accept that you are "unaware", Ignorant and you are only spouting what is called verbal diarrhea and constipation of thoughts.


So there is hardly a point in discussing your, So you better comeback when you know facts and where am Pointing.
 
:lol: :lol: Goodperson the subsidy is being provided by the airlines mostly private and looking at the poverty level in India specially the plight of Muslims one can easily guess how many of them apply for Haj.

Only giving subsidy on airfare for Haj doesnt make india a secular state if India realy wants to be fair it should provide these poor with more employment and educational facilities.
 
:lol: :lol: Goodperson the subsidy is being provided by the airlines mostly private and looking at the poverty level in India specially the plight of Muslims one can easily guess how many of them apply for Haj.

Only giving subsidy on airfare for Haj doesnt make india a secular state if India realy wants to be fair it should provide these poor with more employment and educational facilities.

Nothing to laugh about Subsidy is being provided to pilgrims much before private airlines came into being, Subsidy is significant amount of travel.

Actually secular government is not supposed to provide subsidy to people from one religion.

You may be aware this thread it is questioning Secularism of India. You can discuss about India's poor in another thread.
 
:lol: :lol: Goodperson the subsidy is being provided by the airlines mostly private and looking at the poverty level in India specially the plight of Muslims one can easily guess how many of them apply for Haj.

Only giving subsidy on airfare for Haj doesnt make india a secular state if India realy wants to be fair it should provide these poor with more employment and educational facilities.

Jana

Please don't comment on things that you have no clue about.

It gives a wrong impression about the credibility of Journalistic acumen and honesty of Pakistan since you are a representative of the media.

No private airline gives subsidy. They are there for profit and not social activity.

It is the government which gives the subsidy and the subsidy so given is becomes a 'book debit' for the govt owned airlines!

The govt gives no other community, be it Christian or Hindus. this privilege!

Some in India feel this is not secularism but appeasement and vote bank politics! Maybe you will agree with that since you feel it is not secularism!
 
As you accept that you are "unaware", Ignorant and you are only spouting what is called verbal diarrhea and constipation of thoughts.


So there is hardly a point in discussing your, So you better comeback when you know facts and where am Pointing.

May we talk about the gurudwaras in Pakistan?

It is not my intention to vitiate the atmosphere, but should you want such a slanging match, I am sure the Moderators will be fair to give adequate space!
 
Secularism in India

When India became independent 60 years back, everyone welcome Secularism and with a very few if none dissenting against this.

Today Secularism in India is being attacked by all quarters, some more vehemently esp by India's neighbors. Many of the scathing remarks are aimed at BJP, VHP, Bajrang Dal, RSS.. who are "believed" to be the principal agents of Hindutva and Hindu nationalism..

Criticism of Secularism in India is of a wide range and use different arugements depending on their place of origin..

Democracy and freedom usually imply secularism and secularism is seen as an important factor for the success of democracy, and therefore there is a marked relecutance to discuss the criticism of Secularism in India...

The debate being presented on this thread is mostly of hate of India and Hinduism from the detractors..

As I posted before we must understand what does Secularism really means..

Politically it means seperation of state from all religions.
a. this further implies that either the state is equidistant from all religions and refuses to take sides with any ie neutrality..
b or that the state should not have any relation whatsoever with any religion.. and it should be removed from all..

Since Secularism implies that no religion can have a privelleged position hence .. when the state deals with different religious comminuties they will act in the same neutral way and treatment will be similar for all religions.. here there is no violation of secularism though the state is involved with and working for religion and religious communities.. a case in eg. protecting the right of worship of 1 religion etc.. this again is not a breach of secularism but at the same time here the state is working for religious freedom..

the only criticism here is that as to what similarity or neutrality is exhibited by the state while dealing with different religions..
a very famous example is .. that the state decides not to offer any school with religious affliations.or it can provide support to all schools irresp of religious affliations.. which is more secular?
the first case is secular since there is no association with religion..
the second case is also politically secular since all religions are equidistant from the state..

Here another question rises that if a majority of schools are catholic in their religious affliations it may be seen as anti-Hindu and anti-Muslims,, if thexe communties have fewer religious-affliated schools..
does this mean that the state stop vital funds for schools and other education establishments?? or they give it in propotion and ruin the education system??

here a qualitative and beyond a secualrism approach is vital..

the problems with Indian Secularism is of several types this is with regard to Pakistan and Muslims..

Problem # 1. Identification of India as a Hindu Land

for eg. Hindu India, Muslim Pakistan... esp when videos of Riots etc. are shown.. this is a major stereotype of India in the west.

Many Indians are against this kind of portrayl of India as Hindu by the Western Media..as it is insensitive to the fact that how outside perceptions have shaped Indians themselves historically.. even the word Hindu is foreign in nature and now accepted by Indian "Hindus".. therefore this is the most wrongful portrayl of India..

The fact that the Indian diaspora is massive and are large contributors to India.. therefore they cannot be expected to not be influenced by the "wrongful" portrayl of India by the media..

--> main question is Hindu India the counterpart to the Muslim Pakistan?? <---

one must realize that Pakistan after independence has become an Islamic Republic, a largely theocratic state, and with special powers for Muslims.. where as India is a Secular democracy, with no state religion..

It is cruel the way the Westerns are unable to see the contrast between the 2 nations..and the few odd riots(condmenable no doubt) have fuelled the westerns vision that India is a masquerading Secular Country without realising India has more Muslims than Pakistan.....

Pakistan explicity doesnot allow a nonmuslim to become the head of state whereas India is pretty secular in this regard. 2 half Parsis(Indira Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi), a Sikh(Manmohan Singh) have been heads of state in India..

similarly India cannot have special laws protecting any religion unlike Pakistan's laws protecting Islam w.r.t Blasphemy etc..

Though one must realize that the Hindus in India enjoy an advantage over Muslims in many fields w/o enforcement of any state legislation..

There is no clear identification of the kind or form of Secularism practised in India w/o admonishing or glorifying the same.. and there are lot of questions that are unanswered wrt to how the state of India conducts itself with different religions.. for.eg, Minorities are generally favoured over Minorities.. esp during court or govt rulings.. is this insecular act.. though justifiable, legal and constitutional ?? a famous case, Satanic Verses was banned versus Hinduism trashing books which are allowed to be published...

another issue is that wrt to religion etc. does the state be sensitive to religions and use the religious scholars to interpret certain very sensitive subjects like anti-Islamic or anti-Hindu actions or should the state rely on rationality and do away with all religious interpretations ?

the first case is again secular since the state is equidistant, in second the state is again secular by removing the religion component..

protecting the right to worship, etc can be called secularism in principle as the state is granting religious freedom to various religious communities against what they deem to be blasphemous/hurtful etc.

certain actions deemed classically anti-secular though are arguably in-principle secular -- are very necessary in case of India to prevent religious intolerance and violene.. though having religious scholars sit and interpret the topics is unfeasible and downright anti-Constituional yet.. the govt's or courts intervention in topics which are potentially flammable is welcomed..

The secularism practised in India as over the years adopted a dynamic form and can be thought of as at times biased towards minority but in the interest of the nation.. and the question that Indian secularism has no special requirements is plain jane stupid..

Problem #2. Perceived favouritism of a community over others.

for eg. many Muslims cling on to the Rajinder Sachar committee report that puts Muslims at the bottom of the pile and promptly blame the govt for this (self-created) mess..

here there are big problems.. does the govt sideline the fundamental rights of citizens to give poorer-communities, who have not been able to progress due to a variety of reasons, opportunities??
or should we favour poor-communities esp on religious or caste demonitations and give up secualrism and the very basis of our democracy??

many Hindutva leaders point out the difference in personal laws of the various religious communities in India.. for eg.. a Hindu can be jailed for polygamy but a Muslim in India can have upto 4 wives by invoking the provision of Islamic legal position.. the famous Shah Bano case etc.. have highlighted the discrimination of Hindus in India and favouritism of Muslims in India..

though I believe these are not discriminations or favoritisms .. as what is considered favouritism to Muslim men is discriminatory to Muslim women and what is discriminatory to Hindu Men is favoritism to Hindu Women.. this is a very a narrow minded point put across by the already narrow minded Hindutva leaders..

The muslim and Hindu laws are not a newly created set of laws but are an inheritance of British laws.. though AMbedkar did what a uniformity in the fundamental, civil and criminal laws for maintaining unity..

This resulted in Directive Principle of State Policy not invocable by the courts but by the govt... basically this policy states that there has to be uniform civil code for all Indians.. and the Shah Bano case.. resulted in the courts expressing anger at the govt for not enforcing DPSP.. the Muslim reaction to the case was by certain sections critical and from others supportive..

here a further question arrives.. do we treat all equally as regards to laws and judgements.. and do away with all sensitivities of religion.. for eg.. allowing paintings of Muhammad, Satanic verses etc.. or do we continue to essentially allow dyanmisicm in our laws and secualrism to suit the needs and sensitivities of all relgious communities by being equi-distant from all.. and treating all the same??
the problem with the first part is obvious and with the second is basically do we let the unchecked discrimination in the religious community for eg. anti-woman in Muslims go unchecked and give legal empowerement too..

This is not a failure of secularism mind you but a acknowledgement that secularism goes beyond its stated domain..and involves the concept of fairness and justice..

there is a need to distinguish b/w

1. the need for symmetry amongst different religious communities
2. what kind of symmetry should we take keeping in mind conept of fairness and justice.. and other non-relgious categories..

PS: 2 more posts coming up
 
Now - Stop bringing Pakistan into this discussion or for that matter any country except India.

Thanks.
 
Now - Stop bringing Pakistan into this discussion or for that matter any country except India.
Thanks.

Sir if you read the post.. you would understand that this is meant to counter the argument that India is a Hindu counterpart to Muslim Pakistan in the western media and in fact all over the world.. and I am precisely up for non-comparision of India and Pakistan..

I feel you should not jump the gun and read the post again..

I shall with my next post try to clear the misunderstandings that you have...

Secularism practised in India is unique and must and has to be seen in light what goes around in the world.. and should be understand as unique case and not compared.. but to show this a comparision has to be made..

thanks..
 
Now - Stop bringing Pakistan into this discussion or for that matter any country except India.

Thanks.

The sorry beings that they are..........any discussion can not be complete without comaprision and the fixation they have.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom