How Saudi Arabia's religious project transformed Indonesia

[Indos]

Now Indonesia will have to keep fighting ISIS and AQ in Indonesia..

LOL AQ and ISIS has already been defeated in Indonesia.

That article is written by some one who doesnt understand Indonesia Islamist Movement. They start the writing by stating Indonesia Islamist leader Muhammad Natsir has a link with Saudi. LOL. Stupid article.

Indonesia Islamist Movement is started with the forming of Syarikat Islam in 1908 long before Saudi was even become a country in 1938.

And Muhammad Natsir comes from that organization. It is ABC standard lesson for any one wanting to know Indonesia Islamist Movement. Not only the first Islamist movement in Indonesia but also the first Nationalist Movement to fight for Independent. Indonesia is actually starting to exist due to this movement. So saying something bad about Islamist movement in Indonesia is a foolish thing and will be lough by respected political analyst and historian.

This I bring you some information about the organization.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarekat_Islam

Sarekat Islam (Islamic Union), formerly Islamists Trade Union (Indonesian: Sarekat Dagang Islam), was a cooperative of Javanese batik traders in the Dutch East Indies and a predecessor of independent Indonesia. The group was founded by Haji Samanhudi, a dealer of batik, in 1905 in Surakarta[1] or 1912.[2] Sarekat Dagang Islam, or Union of Islamic Traders, had as its goal the empowerment of local merchants, especially in the batik industry. The establishment of the organization was inspired by the Jamiat Kheir organization.

As Sarekat Dagang Islam grew, it was reorganized under the name Sarekat Islam. Sarekat Islam's general office was in Surabaya. Early prominent figures of Sarekat Islam included H.O.S. Cokroaminoto[2] and Haji Agus Salim. H.O.S. Cokroaminoto had three famous students, who went on to play a dominant role in Indonesian politics: Sukarno the nationalist, Semaun the socialist and Islamist Kartosuwirjo. Haji Agus Salim joined Sarekat Islam in 1915 and promoted Islamic modernism. Some of Salim's students such as Kasman Singodimedjo, Mohammad Roem and Mohammad Natsir later became prominent Islamic and Nationalist leaders.

Goal and orientation Goal - initial: to raise cooperation level of indigenous batik businessman. Goal - later: 1. Raise the educational and health level of various indigenous people. 2. Raise the political awareness of various indigenous people.

Orientation: first business, later mostly political. They are active as political Islamic movement.

Demise: After Indonesia gained recognition of their Independence, the limit of people's politic is dissolved. Their members and supporters moved to join new political organisations.

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It can be seen here that Agus Salim, a prominent Syarikat Islam leader who has two prominent student, Muhammad Roem and Muhammad Natsir, has Modernist Islam view. And it is why Muhammad Natsir also some one who has similar view. If some one wanting to see what type of Islam Muhammad Natsir has, he/she should study Muhammadiyah, a modernist Islam organization that is now the second largest Muslim organization in Indonesia.

Muhammadiyah
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search MUHAMMADIYAH

The logo of Muhammadiyah

Zone of influence
Formation 18 November 1912
Type Organization
Purpose Religious Islamic
Headquarters Jl. Cik Dik Tiro, Yogyakarta, Special Region of Yogyakarta, Indonesia
Region served
Indonesia
Membership
50 million
Leader
Dr. Haedar Nashir
Website Official website
Muhammadiyah (Arabic: محمدية‎, followers of Muhammad. full name: Persyarikatan Muhammadiyah) is a major Islamic non-governmental organization in Indonesia.[1] The organization was founded in 1912 by Ahmad Dahlan in the city of Yogyakarta as a reformist socioreligious movement, advocating ijtihad - individual interpretation of Qur'an and sunnah, as opposed to taqlid - the acceptance of the traditional interpretations propounded by the ulama.[2] Since its establishment, Muhammadiyah has adopted a reformist platform mixing religious and secular education,[3] primarily as a way to promote the upward mobility of Muslims toward a 'modern' community and to purify Indonesian Islam of local syncretic practices.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammadiyah

@AUz

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

In the last 15 to 20 years, many Muslims all over the world have gone "religious" in the most superficial and artificial sense, thinking that Islam is all about prayer, ritual and dress-code. Males with long beards and females with burqa or at least "headscarf" but which heavily comes down over the chest.

There is no intellectual debate among these newly "pious" Muslims.

I blame the Tableeghi Jamaat movement, originally from India, for corrupting the minds of Muslims. The TJ movement in modern times may be funded by Saudi money but its idea of Islam ( prayer, ritual and dress-code ) comes from India from being influenced by other religions. The TJ movement is spread all over the non-Arab world, including in Indonesia. I wish for a global ban on the TJ. Doing so will bring back intellectual activity among Muslims which will take them back to the Progressive activism they had in previous decades ( members can read this thread of mine from 2016 ) or even a new Golden Age of Islam.



You may know that until it existed the Communist Party of Indonesia was the biggest communist party outside of the USSR.

Between 1965 and 1966 the dominant right-wing elements of the Indonesian army started a massacre of Indonesians they said were communists. More than one million people across the country were massacred. Many of these murdered people were not even communists.

Indos, another fact about Sukarno :

On the other hand, like @OsmanAli98 said, Suharto seemed to have been just an agent of the Western governments.

However communists and socialists throughout history turned out to be even worse than their religious counterparts. Poverty , Famine , malnourishment, genocide you name it communists did that. Communism holds back the promise of free market and rather than promoting meritocracy and reward intellectual capability they only promoted a repressive autocracy. Even China so called communist only here because it took the free market approach. In India too muslims think that communism is the ideology and a new fad. However it reminds me a story from Aesop. Once upon a time eagle had a really sweet voice but they got enchanted with the sound of horse and try to emulate it but rather it costed them their voice and they lost their ability. In this sense muslims should emulate free market approach with a tinge of social responsibility as hinted by Islamic sources. If they try to make a hotchpotch of Islam and Socialism . They will face similar thing like the eagle. Educated muslim youth in India has already lost it and it is only a matter of time Islam will be in oblivion maybe in few decades. However rest of muslim world discarded the socialist garbage that is a good going.

 

[AUz]

Your welcome,

LOL that professor is so desperate No respected Indonesian political analyst ever believe with such estimation. Here my explanation below brother @AUz :

Kejawen who are mostly believed by some Javanese (Central and East Java) and also other traditional religion in West Java only believed by so few Indonesian, I believe the number not more than 1 %. If they even have 20 percent of Indonesia population, logically they will absolutely be accepted as one of state religion in Indonesia since Indonesia independent, just like 10 percent Non Muslim who follow Christian, Catholic, Hindu, and Budha. Quantity means political power as well. Basic understanding in politics. As Islamization process is continuing in Indonesia, their number will even get smaller.

I will try to explain more about Islamization process in Indonesia.

I said the term Islamization as the process of making Indonesian Muslim know better about their religion and thus increase their religiosity level.

After our independence, many Javanese are still practicing some Hindu belief althoug being Muslim, since Islam is quite late to be introduced in central and east Java, so Islamization process there hasnt yet been completed when we declare Independent in 1945 as can be seen by their women traditional dress which is still quite open for Muslim standard. We can thus compare it with women traditional dress in Sumatra, Jakarta (Betawi ethnic), Kalimantan, and South Sulawesi which are more closed. West Java (Sundanese) women traditional dress is a bit open but more close compared to Javanese since West Java is near to both Sumatra and also Central Java and the people are also more Islamic.

It is why in our first democratic election in 1955, Indonesia communist party can get significant votes which is 10 percent. The amount of Communist sympatizer in 1965 is not known but could be bigger then the number in 1955.

After our country get stable since 1967 as the start of New Order regime under Soeharto, Islamization process across Indonesia continues and particularly since there is no Dutch anymore that can curb that process and also due to the modern technology like TV, radio, and also the formation of Religion Ministry which is 100 % controlled by Muslim, Islamization get more effect in Republic. Mosque are built across the nations and Islam study is one of the subject any kid must learn in school since kindergarden until high school.

The process is even getting accelerated after in 1990 Soeharto become more Islamic, took Hajj for the first time, change his name into Muhammad Soeharto, and the formation of ICMI (Indonesian of Muslim Intelectuals) by BJ Habibie whose activist infiltrated the government, including in Golkar, Soeharto political party, where Golkar leadership are dominated by HMI (Muslim Student Association) alumny. BJ Habibie as the main Islamist leader inside the government at that time also become Vice President.

The emergence of 24 hours private TV station are also helpful and they are all controlled by Soeharto son and daughter who knows that their father are becoming more Islamic. Many Islamic programs are launched.

It is about ICMI and as person who are interested on Indonesian politics, I recommended you to read it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_Association_of_Muslim_Intellectuals

You can see there that Islamist movement in Indonesia doesnt have any influence from Saudi. They are genuine Indonesian movement.

After Reformation 1998

After we embrace democracy in 1998, the process is not slowing down but rather getting more systematic as Muslim political power is elevated by democracy system and it can be seen by seeing Muhammadiyah activist always become Minister of Education since then, except for this second term Jokowi when he put Nadiem Makarim (Gojek founder and CEO) as Minister of Education.

All News TV stations which are TV One, Metro TV, CNN Indonesia, CNBC Indonesia are also own by Muslim entrepreneur. Popular TV station like Trans TV is also owned by Muslim and have regular Muslim program. Even TV station owned by Non Muslim like Indosiar has popular program like Mamah dedeh (Sundanese women preacher) that try to correct many false Islamic practice in Indonesia and based her argument on Quran and Hadith. Her Islamic version is similar like Muhammadiyah version. Second largest Muslim organization with modernist idea.

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Regarding Indonesia politics you can see more explanation by me in this thread. This page below and other page contains answer to question raised by Alhasani

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/arab...ndonesians-5-million-population.513493/page-7

I will answer other question later inshaAllah.

Thank for your such a detailed and beautiful response brother Wishing you and Muslim people of Indonesia best of luck from the bottom of my heart!!

 

[jamahir]

However rest of muslim world discarded the socialist garbage that is a good going.

Then why are Syrians fighting war for nine years to retain the Ba'ath socialist system ??

And in Libya there are many who want the country to go back to the Jamahiriya socialist system that existed until 2011.

Communism holds back the promise of free market and rather than promoting meritocracy and reward intellectual capability they only promoted a repressive autocracy. Even China so called communist only here because it took the free market approach.

I never understood the term "Free market". Can you explain ??

In India too muslims think that communism is the ideology and a new fad.

Indian Muslims interested in socialism / communism has not been seen in the last 15 to 20 years, save for some like Umar Khalid and the lovely Shehla Rashid. In earlier decades Indian Muslims were active in Progressive movements like IPTA. It was many such Muslims who drove the Hindi film industry.

But now, as I wrote previously, most Muslims have sadly been misguided by wrong elements such as the Tableeghi Jamaat.

If they try to make a hotchpotch of Islam and Socialism . They will face similar thing like the eagle.

If you again read that 2016 thread I linked earlier you will see that Islam is an older socialist movement.

Educated muslim youth in India has already lost it and it is only a matter of time Islam will be in oblivion maybe in few decades.

It is the so-called educated Muslim youth in India who are the major part of the Tableeghi Jamaat for the last 15 to 20 years. Obviously, they are thus not educated in the real sense.

They have an incorrect understanding of Islam which they think is all about prayer, ritual and a certain dress-code.

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

Then why are Syrians fighting war for nine years to retain the Ba'ath socialist system ??

And in Libya there are many who want the country to go back to the Jamahiriya socialist system that existed until 2011.



I never understood the term "Free market". Can you explain ??



Indian Muslims interested in socialism / communism has not been seen in the last 15 to 20 years, save for some like Umar Khalid and the lovely Shehla Rashid. In earlier decades Indian Muslims were active in Progressive movements like IPTA. It was many such Muslims who drove the Hindi film industry.

But now, as I wrote previously, most Muslims have sadly been misguided by wrong elements such as the Tableeghi Jamaat.



If you again read that 2016 thread I linked earlier you will see that Islam is an older socialist movement.



It is the so-called educated Muslim youth in India who are the major part of the Tableeghi Jamaat for the last 15 to 20 years. Obviously, they are thus not educated in the real sense.

They have an incorrect understanding of Islam which they think is all about prayer, ritual and a certain dress-code.

1. For the first part it is too general assumption that they are fighting for socialism form rather than that they want to regain some stability if they only wanted to root for socialism and baaath party there would not be a protest movement in fist place.


2. Fo free market I think this video is great.

Also please watch this with it

3.The way I am seeing in my vicinity educated ones are opting for che and marx that is why I told it is a dangerous cocktail as socialism can be escape route but it won't change the ground reality for muslims. It will ultimately erode the muslim identity with it as well as communists are hardcore atheists. And an atheist can't be a muslim as to be a muslim you need to adhere or believe the 5 pillars and having a muslim name doesn't make you a muslim.

4.Islam is not socialist movement because it supported the right to own property as well as it supported free market approach , but it did have some tinge of socialism like social responsibility but calling it a socialist movement is a farce.


5.Islam encompasses everything from principle and philosophy to how we should live our live. Both are important pillars if you leave one thing other will crash completely in that sense Jamat is doing good things.

 

[jamahir]

1. For the first part it is too general assumption that they are fighting for socialism form rather than that they want to regain some stability if they only wanted to root for socialism and baaath party there would not be a protest movement in fist place.

1. A desire for stability comes after some time of instability. In the Syrian case it would be after nine years of war. But it was not mostly anyone else fighting all this time, it was mostly the Syrians. In other words, the loyal Syrians have continuously fighting all these nine years.

2. The so-called protest movement in 2011 also started simultaneously in Libya. Though the Western governments termed it "Arab Spring" and called it an expression of "people's protest against oppressive and dictatorial governments", in truth these "protests" were organized by elements of Al Qaeda and Muslim Brotherhood.

2. Fo free market I think this video is great.

Also please watch this with it

OK, thanks. I will watch the vids when I am able to borrow headphones from my brother ( I don't own a pair now ) when he is able to go to his office in some days.

3.The way I am seeing in my vicinity educated ones are opting for che and marx that is why I told it is a dangerous cocktail as socialism can be escape route but it won't change the ground reality for muslims.

Where do you live ??

It will ultimately erode the muslim identity with it as well as communists are hardcore atheists. And an atheist can't be a muslim as to be a muslim you need to adhere or believe the 5 pillars and having a muslim name doesn't make you a muslim.

As I said earlier, mere prayer, ritual and a certain dress-code does not make one a Muslim.

4.Islam is not socialist movement because it supported the right to own property as well as it supported free market approach , but it did have some tinge of socialism like social responsibility but calling it a socialist movement is a farce.

In socialist Libya a person could own a business.

And socialism is not only an economic aspect but also bringing progressive ideas. Like you yourself said - social responsibility. Islam brought an end to regressive social practices and put out some sensible ideas ( like the idea of a formless God whose presence cannot come into a mud idol in a temple ).

5.Islam encompasses everything from principle and philosophy to how we should live our live.

I agree.

Both are important pillars if you leave one thing other will crash completely in that sense Jamat is doing good things.

Again I insist, the obsession of the Tableeghis with prayer, ritual and a dress-code is a wrong understanding of Islam. Does a long-beard-no-mustache pious Tableeghi ever talk about widow remarriage that is present in Islam ??

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

1. A desire for stability comes after some time of instability. In the Syrian case it would be after nine years of war. But it was not mostly anyone else fighting all this time, it was mostly the Syrians. In other words, the loyal Syrians have continuously fighting all these nine years.

2. The so-called protest movement in 2011 also started simultaneously in Libya. Though the Western governments termed it "Arab Spring" and called it an expression of "people's protest against oppressive and dictatorial governments", in truth these "protests" were organized by elements of Al Qaeda and Muslim Brotherhood.



OK, thanks. I will watch the vids when I am able to borrow headphones from my brother ( I don't own a pair now ) when he is able to go to his office in some days.



Where do you live ??



As I said earlier, mere prayer, ritual and a certain dress-code does not make one a Muslim.



In socialist Libya a person could own a business.

And socialism is not only an economic aspect but also bringing progressive ideas. Like you yourself said - social responsibility. Islam brought an end to regressive social practices and put out some sensible ideas ( like the idea of a formless God whose presence cannot come into a mud idol in a temple ).



I agree.



Again I insist, the obsession of the Tableeghis with prayer, ritual and a dress-code is a wrong understanding of Islam. Does a long-beard-no-mustache pious Tableeghi ever talk about widow remarriage that is present in Islam ??

1. The revolution started due to economic reasons and social prospects. If MB was given a space and not taken out in a undemocratic manner there would not need a revolution in first place. The autocrats are so afraid of MB that they take out the legitimate govt chosen by popular votes so much for good ol' days.

2.Social responsibility and socialism is two different things. Socialism is what marx described as a form of collectivised production with little room for individual ownership and entrepreneurial skills.Progressive Idea is a result of a society which doesn't clamp down on people however every socialist regime fails in that from Hitlar's Germany to Modern Day Venezuela.


2.TJ is not just about showing faith outwardly but also to take the responsibility and maintain the Islamic philosophy in thinking and work so that they can be better version of themselves in this world as well as after world.

 

[Indos]

2- My second question is in regards to the constitutional amendment bill. Whenever this bill is about to be passed, entire International media and liberal Indonesian media go hoopla, haapla because it makes premarital sex illegal in Indonesia (like many other Muslim countries). And when that happens, this bill always gets delayed. Its been more than 5 years since this bill was about to be passed---and it has been 'postponed' multiple times.

You think this bill will get passed this year? What is happening in that regard?

Thank you

That is the effort to change our criminal law. We just adopted criminal law from Dutch after our independent and name it KUHP. The process to change that very old criminal law is very challenging as secular nationalist and Non Muslim are afraid that it can be the start to implement Shariah law later. Just like how they are so afraid when we change some content on the constitution in early 2000. They want those things (constitution and criminal law) to be sacred and unchangeable.

But even during secular nationalist rule, they cannot stop the process. Any way, there are many controversial thing on new criminal law, so the public is quite united to reject new criminal law to become effective. And also the mass protest that was going on the parliament during that time were not against the law but the other law, anti corruption law, that is seen to be made to weaken our independent anti corruption body (KPK).

Those two law are compiled as one unit to be sign by President at the same time. The protest about criminal law is just made by small demonstrant which comes from liberal group, while the majority of demonstran are college student who are protesting on Anti Corruption Law.

Western Newspaper/Western media (Including Aljazeera) spin the protest as if it is the protest to reject some criminal law that is against Liberal ideas like what you just said (criminalizing sex for those who make it with illegal partner(not husband and wife) and there is also prohibition for women to go out after 10 PM and others. While the truth is the main demonstrant are protesting Anti Corruption Law. So they try to make the world believe that Indonesian are liberal.

Any way, there are many thing inside the new criminal law that need some fixing like we can get prison if some one else chicken found in our house yard. I think that is too much.

Any way, the new criminal law will be effective soon, maybe around this year. And in this regard, what ever the contain is, Islamist will won, since this process show that our criminal law can be changed, so the opportunity to insert Shariah Law into our criminal law is wide open, or at least some inspired Sharia Law.

 

[jamahir]

2.TJ is not just about showing faith outwardly but also to take the responsibility and maintain the Islamic philosophy in thinking and work so that they can be better version of themselves in this world as well as after world.

Again I ask you, does a pious Tableeghi ever talk about progressive things ( for a backward society like India ) like widow remarriage whose provision is part of the present in Islam ??

No. All that the tolis of the TJ that go on gasht every Thursday evening talk about is "Allah ne hawa banaya, paani baana, aao ibaadat karein". No true intellectual debate. They don't really respect the Nature that surrounds us. Does a Tableeghi ever wonder that in Space, which is the true face of Nature, without a proper, undamaged spacesuit we would be burnt or frozen to death, depending on how near or far we are from a star, and irrespective of how much ever hurried prayers we do then ??

I am a person who likes to talk for long over tea but the TJ tolis, with their specific dress-code and look, are not any kind of intellectual debaters. They bore me.

The TJ is not the sort of movement whose members have a great vision for humanity like setting up colonies on Mars by the mid 2030s. Not Mars but it is the mosque for them.

The TJ types are not the sort who try to understand why The Last Messenger liked cats. The TJ is the type about whom is said "Mullah ki daud masjid tak". They don't actually mind living in areas where there are street dogs, three to five for every street, barking away all night, killing away any cat they find. The TJs don't know or care that the real sunnah is things like imitating the cat-liking ways of The Last Messenger.

The TJ is not a thinker's movement. They are drones whose least contribution has been to bore people and most contribution has been to enable stepping stones to join or create terrorist movements in places as far apart as Indonesia to Britain.

By the way, you didn't tell me where you live.

 

[El Sidd]

Again I ask you, does a pious Tableeghi ever talk about progressive things ( for a backward society like India ) like widow remarriage whose provision is part of the present in Islam ??

No. All that the tolis of the TJ that go on gasht every Thursday evening talk about is "Allah ne hawa banaya, paani baana, aao ibaadat karein". No true intellectual debate. They don't really respect the Nature that surrounds us. Does a Tableeghi ever wonder that in Space, which is the true face of Nature, without a proper, undamaged spacesuit we would be burnt or frozen to death, depending on how near or far we are from a star, and irrespective of how much hurried prayers we do then ??

I am a person who likes to talk for long over tea but the TJ tolis, with their specific dress-code and look, are not any kind of intellectual debaters. They bore me.

The TJ is not the sort of movement whose members have a great vision for humanity like setting up colonies on Mars by the mid 2030s. Not Mars but it is the mosque for them.

The TJ types are not the sort who try to understand why The Last Messenger liked cats. The TJ is the type about whom is said "Mullah ki daud masjid tak". They don't actually mind living in areas where there are street dogs, three to five for every street, barking away all night, killing away any cat they find. The TJs don't know or care that the real sunnah is things like imitating the cat-liking ways of The Last Messenger.

The TJ is not a thinker's movement. They are drones whose least contribution has been to bore people and most contribution has been to enable stepping stones to join or create terrorist movements in places as far apart as Indonesia to Britain.

By the way, you didn't tell me where you live.

do you work for government IT centre for the smear campaign of an average Muslim?

How does it feel eating food cooked on the ashes of lynch victims?

 

[jamahir]

1. The revolution started due to economic reasons and social prospects. If MB was given a space and not taken out in a undemocratic manner there would not need a revolution in first place. The autocrats are so afraid of MB that they take out the legitimate govt chosen by popular votes so much for good ol' days.

The MB in Egypt once tried to assassinate Nasser, for which it was banned then. Do we take it to mean that Nasser was not the great leader that was assumed in previous decades.

do you work for government IT centre for the smear campaign of an average Muslim?

How does it feel eating food cooked on the ashes of lynch victims?

Fans of the government would prefer calling people like me as an "Urban Naxal" and an apologist for the "tukde tukde gang". Do research what that means.

 

[El Sidd]

Fans of the government would prefer calling people like me as an "Urban Naxal". Do research what that means.

If you need more creative labels, hit me up.

Still does not explain why you have Nazi tendencies and prefer the fascist route of blaming minorities and exploiting religious divide amongst them.

I wonder if you tell your RSS buddies that only progressive Muslims who chant Jai Sri Ram should be allowed to live and rest euthanized

 

[jamahir]

Still does not explain why you have Nazi tendencies and prefer the fascist route of blaming minorities and exploiting religious divide amongst them.

How does criticizing the Tableeghi Jamaat equate to blaming all Muslims ?? I too am saddened at the injustice towards, say Gujjar Muslim milk sellers in Punjab who are being socially boycotted by many Hindu villagers using Corona as excuse ??

Did you actually read all those previous posts of mine ??

 

[El Sidd]

How does criticizing the Tableeghi Jamaat equate to blaming all Muslims ?? I too am saddened at the injustice towards, say Gujjar Muslim milk sellers in Punjab who are being socially boycotted by many Hindu villagers using Corona as excuse ??

Did you actually read all those previous posts of mine ??

You have a bias as you believe in your head that they are misguided zombies and hence when they get lynched, you are indifferent to them. Darwinism is taught differently in India but still does not hold true that you spend quite some time demonising them.

I do not care about Hindu or Muslim or anyone in the best interest of fairness.

You go to great lengths to pick on imaginatively at these people.

The thread is about Indonesia but you have taken upon yourself to preach Gaddafism. Any chance you fund people in Libya and Syria from your Deccan gold?

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

Again I ask you, does a pious Tableeghi ever talk about progressive things ( for a backward society like India ) like widow remarriage whose provision is part of the present in Islam ??

No. All that the tolis of the TJ that go on gasht every Thursday evening talk about is "Allah ne hawa banaya, paani baana, aao ibaadat karein". No true intellectual debate. They don't really respect the Nature that surrounds us. Does a Tableeghi ever wonder that in Space, which is the true face of Nature, without a proper, undamaged spacesuit we would be burnt or frozen to death, depending on how near or far we are from a star, and irrespective of how much ever hurried prayers we do then ??

I am a person who likes to talk for long over tea but the TJ tolis, with their specific dress-code and look, are not any kind of intellectual debaters. They bore me.

The TJ is not the sort of movement whose members have a great vision for humanity like setting up colonies on Mars by the mid 2030s. Not Mars but it is the mosque for them.

The TJ types are not the sort who try to understand why The Last Messenger liked cats. The TJ is the type about whom is said "Mullah ki daud masjid tak". They don't actually mind living in areas where there are street dogs, three to five for every street, barking away all night, killing away any cat they find. The TJs don't know or care that the real sunnah is things like imitating the cat-liking ways of The Last Messenger.

The TJ is not a thinker's movement. They are drones whose least contribution has been to bore people and most contribution has been to enable stepping stones to join or create terrorist movements in places as far apart as Indonesia to Britain.

By the way, you didn't tell me where you live.

The things you mentioned has already provision of Islam as widow remarriage is not a big deal in Islam. The thing you mentioned has already mentioned in Islam strive for knowledge and even TJ guys don't oppose education, they say educate yourself. And regarding MARS and Colony theses are two different things. You won't ask a economist about the effect of gravity in everyday life . Their field of expertise is different. And for TJ guys it is about how you should live a life and implications of bad choices in life, they are more of an life coach who just based upon their laws on a heavenly body.

As for me I live somewhere middle of the country.

The MB in Egypt once tried to assassinate Nasser, for which it was banned then. Do we take it to mean that Nasser was not the great leader that was assumed in previous decades.



Fans of the government would prefer calling people like me as an "Urban Naxal" and an apologist for the "tukde tukde gang". Do research what that means.

Regarding Nasser he was an authoritarian despot a popular one no doubt who tried to stiffle the voice of dissidents much like most socialist regime in world.