How Pakistan descended into poverty

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It depends on how the budget is counted.

The individual I posed that question to made a claim - I'm asking him to justify it.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Nothing is worse then anarchy and chaos. Pakistan like most developing countries is divided along ethnic, tribal, clan, regional, sectarian lines.

Hmmm..you think it may be related to preserving wealth in a family could be leading to systemic nepotism in jobs (technically corruption) and thus basically nothing advances since you don't have the best people doing the job. Stagnation and maintaining the status quo.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Hmmm..you think it may be related to preserving wealth in a family could be leading to systemic nepotism in jobs (technically corruption) and thus basically nothing advances since you don't have the best people doing the job. Stagnation and maintaining the status quo.

Yes. Crony capitalism best exemplified by the ex- PM Nawaz Sharif. This class launders the wealth abroad - mostly western countries. They also as a class maintain homes in the west where they 'farm' out some of their children/family. But inside Pakistan they use Islam or those twisted aspects of it to sedate or distract the masses. This worked like a charm but over the last two decades their sedated clones have become susecptible to being militarisared by mostly Middle Eastern politics.

You see example of that on PDF. The extreme anti westernism and even racisim is rampant amongst ex-pat working class Pakistani's. All this defelects from the real illness in Pakistani society. Truth is we need more 'westernism'. Not less like these guys claim. The army for what it's worth is the most undiluted western legacy in Pakistan. There is precious little indigenous about it as a insitution. Bizzarely many of thise who laud it fail to see that Pakistan Army is epitomy of westernism and that is exactly why it is the only institution that functions in Pakistan.

 

[Corona]

Great post. I agree 100%.



This is the prevailing mood on the Pakistani street. This sentiment is what propelled PTI.

Well, they say half the solution of a problem is admitting there is a problem. It's too early to talk about the other half. PTI might pull through.

Nothing is worse then anarchy and chaos. Pakistan like most developing countries is divided along ethnic, tribal, clan, regional, sectarian lines. Developing countries like this need a strong anchor around which the state can be built and cooked to the right dispensation. I know that UK is where it is as a result over 1,000 years of bloody history.

We can see what happens in un-reformed societies with examples of Libya, Iraq, Syria where countries concerned cracked along the existing cleavages. In Pakistan such choas would be catastrophic. But the Pakistan Army acts as the iron grid frame around which the country is secured. So trust me whatever is spent n PA is worth it.

It almost makes being the "go to" bad guy worth it.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

It almost makes being the go to bad guy worth it

Sorry?

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Well, they say half the solution of a problem is admitting there is a problem. It's too early to talk about the other half. PTI might pull through.


It almost makes being the go to bad guy worth it

Sure, it would be very convenient for India not to have the Pakistani military next door.

Half the problem is only because we jailed the crooks, the full answer will be when he hang all those traitors under Musharraf, Nawaz, Zardari governments and set a precedent.

 

[VCheng]

Well, if we can loose so much and still stand up....if we manage the loosing then it would mean we would be flying, no?

Oh yes, I am always happy to agree that Pakistan has a lot of potential.

 

[Corona]

Sorry?

Bad joke.

It's almost worth India being Pakistan's default bad guy, if it enables the people to rally together and pull themselves out of poverty.

 

[VCheng]

so back in the days during my graduate studies our professor tells us when big oil reserves were discovered in Nigeria they all cheered declaring the days of plenty , luxury and fun were own them and they would be playing with money,.
despite all that oil , through all the ills of corruption &mismanagement etc the promised days never arrived.

so I wonder if we disband the Pakistan army or bring it to level of say Punjab police .. where would all that saved stash of money be spent on health ? education, infrastructure?
or would the money just vanish in payment of phantom teachers and ghost schools?
or find its way to Western and Middle eastern banks?

but there is only one way to find out. disband the army. it will just do wonders just like disbanding the Iraqi army brought so much joy to Iraqis

No Sir. The Army is Pakistan, like it or not, there can be no denying that fact.

The individual I posed that question to made a claim - I'm asking him to justify it.

Let me wait to see how you tear down any presented justifications quite predictably.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

hang all those traitors under Musharraf, Nawaz, Zardari governments and set a precedent.

Impossible. This can only happen in very cohesive, integrated and unfied societies. In Pakistan we have dozen political grouping each coalesced around a ethnic, economic, social, or religious group. If PTI want to do that, PPP, PML-N will oppose it. If PPP want to do that, PML-N, MQM would oppose it etc. This conflicted, divided polity leaves space for all sort of shenanigans to be played out and gives enough oxgen for like of Zardari, Altaf to not only maintain influence but prosper for decades.

It's almost worth India being Pakistan's default bad guy, if it enables the people to rally together and pull themselves out of poverty.

Yes, there is some point to what you said.

 

[Corona]

Sure, it would be very convenient for India not to have the Pakistani military next door.

Half the problem is only because we jailed the crooks, the full answer will be when he hang all those traitors under Musharraf, Nawaz, Zardari governments and set a precedent.

We're not waiting at the border to waltz into Karachi, my friend. We've got our own problems. An invasion at this time is the last thing on our minds.

If and when you hang them, you'll have a bunch of dead guys and that's it. Nothing will change. I bet you there are 10 more Sharifs waiting to take his place.

As much as you pin the entire blame on a few people, they simply took the opportunity that was available to them. You have to clean your house and fix the problem too. IK might not steal from the people. What about the next guy and the one after that?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Let me wait to see how you tear down any presented justifications quite predictably.

It's numbers - he just has to make sure the numbers he presents to contrast India and Pakistan are broken down consistently for both sides.

If India does not count military pensions as part of the defence budget, then no need to include them on the Pakistani side etc etc

 

[Irfan Baloch]

No Sir. The Army is Pakistan, like it or not, there can be no denying that fact.

Blasphemy
how can you say that with a straight face

 

[VCheng]

It's numbers - he just has to make sure the numbers he presents to contrast India and Pakistan are broken down consistently for both sides.

If India does not count military pensions as part of the defence budget, then no need to include them on the Pakistani side etc etc

I await to observe this discussion with anticipation, but without participation.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I await to observe this discussion with anticipation, but without participation.

I reviewed the numbers months ago in a similar discussion. He's not coming back with a response.