How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[Babbar-Khalsa]

While what you just wrote may point to some weaknesses in SU 30 -MKI but lets consider following points :-

1. SU-30 will not be alone . There would be multirole fighters like RAFALE , MIG-29s and Mirage -2000s who can match any ability of the advanced f-16s or f-18s . So if you are going for SU-30 , remember that a MIG-29 is right on your 6 '0 clock. Now let me tell you , people still avoid a dogfight with MIG-29 . It still appears in the nightmares of US pilots.

2. SU-30 is not just a fighter , its a weapon platform , you can call its a big daddy . At any time , it would be carrying high intensity and precision bombs , jammers , anit-aircraft-missiles , rockets and cruise missile and simultaneously it will be fighting.

3. Like everybody already said , its a mini AWAC. It has an extended range of 3000 kms . Let me remind you that it has been specifically designed for our stronger neighbour. During the war with our neighbour (in west) , it may act as force multiplier.


4. The real fights will be between Mig-29s , Mirage-2000s , Rafles from one side to F-16s , JF-17s , Mirages etc at other side . All these aircrafts are higly agile and true multirole fighters .

Having said that , the best team will win.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

J11 will do our Airforce some benefits

 

[Teeta]

While what you just wrote may point to some weaknesses in SU 30 -MKI but lets consider following points :-

1. SU-30 will not be alone . There would be multirole fighters like RAFALE , MIG-29s and Mirage -2000s who can match any ability of the advanced f-16s or f-18s . So if you are going for SU-30 , remember that a MIG-29 is right on your 6 '0 clock. Now let me tell you , people still avoid a dogfight with MIG-29 . It still appears in the nightmares of US pilots.

2. SU-30 is not just a fighter , its a weapon platform , you can call its a big daddy . At any time , it would be carrying high intensity and precision bombs , jammers , anit-aircraft-missiles , rockets and cruise missile and simultaneously it will be fighting.

3. Like everybody already said , its a mini AWAC. It has an extended range of 3000 kms . Let me remind you that it has been specifically designed for our stronger neighbour. During the war with our neighbour (in west) , it may act as force multiplier.


4. The real fights will be between Mig-29s , Mirage-2000s , Rafles from one side to F-16s , JF-17s , Mirages etc at other side . All these aircrafts are higly agile and true multirole fighters .

Having said that , the best team will win.

You are wrong on bold parts.

 

[Babbar-Khalsa]

30mins friend, Shaheen-II would not take more than 30min to reach eastern parts of india.

The Shaheen-2 would be blown up in atmosphere if it takes that much time to reach East India. But let me assure you that after this act , the barrage of Prithvi and Agni would do in-comparable damage within 11 minutes.

You are wrong on bold parts.

If i am wrong , then please enlighten me.

 

[Teeta]

If i am wrong , then please enlighten me.

O.K....

In EVERY fight between Mig-29 and F-16, F-16 shot the mig down...I'm talking about real battles, not some "exercises"....

Secondly, U.S pilots don't have nightmares from anything. This isn't IAF we are talking about.....

Thirdly, Su-30 doesn't have the range of 3000 km, but 300 may be...Also, Mr Sukhoi Thirty isn't someone special. Every plane will be carrying jammers, ECM pod, precision strike munitions, rockets and what not. So lets come back to reality now. Su30 is just another 4th gen fighter...nothing big (no matter how badly indians want to believe)...

Lastly, su30 can carry just one cruise missile..and when it is carrying that..I dont think it would be 'fighting' at the same time....

 

[Babbar-Khalsa]

The only problem is you are only comparing bird to bird. That itself is the fallacy in your perception. So what if India is replacing MIG21's with SU30MKI, it will only be a problem for PAF if its sending the JF17's to fight them 1 on 1. But fortunately, aerial warfare is not fought 1 on 1 between birds. There are a whole set of other factors that come into play that can change the face of the aerial warfare.

It are only fanboys whom look at fancy new birds and start comparing their specs with other birds. But a real war is fought by keeping multiple factors in mind backed up by a multi layered comprehensive strategy. It is not just the aerial birds that the pilot has to worry about but what about the threat from the ground. What if the enemy pilot forces you to drop down to 1000 ft and let his hidden gunners on the ground slaughter you in the air.

Looking at the stance of Indian Air Head Quarters, it appears that they are not confident of downing the PAF in their prescribed strategy. This is why they haven't itched to fight it out, and that is why they are adding additional hardware to counter PAF's improvement in her gaps.

Numerical superiority does not exist in Indo-Pak warfare. For argument sakes, lets say that IAF intends to field 750 fighters against PAF's 350. First of all, IAF is not going to throw up all her birds in the air and attack PAF in massive formations as seen in World War 2. In today's modern warfare, strike packages are the name of the game and the question is how many strike packages can the IAF afford to send. That being said, IAF needs to insert atleast 2-3 squadrons near her border against China to protect her flank. Great AF's operate under the doctrine of not what the intention of the enemy is but what the enemy is capable of. After that, IAF needs to split up her forces into Air Defence, Air Superiority and Close Air Support. Where exactly is the numerical superiority

Well :-

1. Adding additional hardwares never means lack of confidence.

2. Strike packages would be sent depending on resources in hand . Not to mention that IAF would be fully aware of the readiness of PAF and what to expect .

3. Numerical superiority is not a match -winner but it does affects the psyche.

 

[Mav3rick]

While what you just wrote may point to some weaknesses in SU 30 -MKI but lets consider following points :-

1. SU-30 will not be alone . There would be multirole fighters like RAFALE , MIG-29s and Mirage -2000s who can match any ability of the advanced f-16s or f-18s . So if you are going for SU-30 , remember that a MIG-29 is right on your 6 '0 clock. Now let me tell you , people still avoid a dogfight with MIG-29 . It still appears in the nightmares of US pilots.

2. SU-30 is not just a fighter , its a weapon platform , you can call its a big daddy . At any time , it would be carrying high intensity and precision bombs , jammers , anit-aircraft-missiles , rockets and cruise missile and simultaneously it will be fighting.

3. Like everybody already said , its a mini AWAC. It has an extended range of 3000 kms . Let me remind you that it has been specifically designed for our stronger neighbour. During the war with our neighbour (in west) , it may act as force multiplier.


4. The real fights will be between Mig-29s , Mirage-2000s , Rafles from one side to F-16s , JF-17s , Mirages etc at other side . All these aircrafts are higly agile and true multirole fighters .

Having said that , the best team will win.

1. Agreed. However, as the aggressor (designated role of IAF in case of conflict) all these assets will have to cross over to Pakistan airspace where PAF fighters will be complemented by AWACS that will be flying outside the range of weapons plus additional ground based assets such as SAM systems and EW systems. PAF will not have to worry about those. RAFALE is not on the scene yet and it may be a while before it takes part in anything. By the way, why does the Mig-29 appear in nightmares of US pilots when over a dozen mig-29's have been shot down by F-15's and atleast 3 by F-16's without a single loss?

2. Yes, MKI is a weapons platform, a mini AWEACS and most importantly a massive red blip on even the most primitive radars. What the story comes to next is the actual weapons that the platform holds and has to counter. We all know the performance of Russian BVR's and the US BVR's. We also know the performance of Russian WVR Missiles and the American WVR missiles. We are also fully aware of the quality of jammers on Russian systems that are unable to jam outdated SAM systems!

3. Then keep is far away from the range of our stand off weapons as they have a much higher kill probability then any Russian weapon. Not only that, the mini AWAC thing would be homing beacon to HARM missiles! Let me also remind you that the role of IAF in any actual conflict with China would be defensive just as that of PAF against India!

4. I am seriously tired of the Rafale discussion especially when the PAF counter to it is absent!

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

See the problem with your calculations is that

a) JF17 thunders will be carrying a lethal BVR that will lock onto the double decker bus with wings called sukhoi and the second thing is that we have no Upper Limit on Production of JF17 Thunders.

b) You assume that the Missile carrying capabilities will not increase with Block 2

c) Another Assumption you do make is that you assume , that the double decker Bus , Sukhoi fighters can match the agility of J10B

d) we already have chinese AWACs that work with JF17 and J10B

Movies can't be wrong

Here is Hypothetical Comparison

36 Pakistani J10B + 200 JF17 Thunders vs 150 Sukhoi
80 Pakistani F16 C/D vs 125 Rafale
100 JF17 Thunder vs 60 Mirage 2000

F7 & Mirage 400 vs Mig 29

PS : Pakistan also has very Agile platform F7 , which in Military Excercises have given F15 run for Money I imagine 200 of these fighters will certainly give the Sukhoi some real pain in the *** to lock them down specially in dog fights


In the End .... does not matters how many Missiles Sukhoi carries , it can be brougt to ground with a Missile fired even from F7 or Mirage or even Shoulder held platfom but I love the circus tricks it does .. what that trick it down standing up on its tail like a puppy , yeah .. do that infront of Chinese Missiles it may be a problem


PS: Just because a Sukhoi has extra 1-2 Missiles does not means that it will hit its target
every time because unlike the practice drones , all Pakistan Airforce planes have counter
messure and Missile Evasive planning enabled

 

[selvan33]

You are wrong on bold parts.

whatever he said was right.but except the mig29 a nightmare for US.

 

[Markus]

Except four squadrons, all Su-30s will be available to fight Pakistan.

So, around 90 may be available to hit Pakistan from multiple sides.

 

[selvan33]

O.K....

In EVERY fight between Mig-29 and F-16, F-16 shot the mig down...I'm talking about real battles, not some "exercises"....

Secondly, U.S pilots don't have nightmares from anything. This isn't IAF we are talking about.....

Thirdly, Su-30 doesn't have the range of 3000 km, but 300 may be...Also, Mr Sukhoi Thirty isn't someone special. Every plane will be carrying jammers, ECM pod, precision strike munitions, rockets and what not. So lets come back to reality now. Su30 is just another 4th gen fighter...nothing big (no matter how badly indians want to believe)...

Lastly, su30 can carry just one cruise missile..and when it is carrying that..I dont think it would be 'fighting' at the same time....

non sense quote. who said to you su30mki range is 300km. its more than 3000km.

 

[Markus]

non sense quote. who said to you su30mki range is 300km. its more than 3000km.

Yes, and that too without external fuel tanks.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

Now lets have a look at your assumptions:

1 ot) All Mig-21's to be replaced by SU-30MKI whereas 7 squadrons (around 120) Mig-21's are supposed to be replaced by LCA. SU-30MKI strength is envisioned at 270-272 and no more.
2) PAF counters the acquisition of Rafale with JF-17 where as Rafale will most likely be countered by J-10B's. Since no order has been placed for Rafale, no order has been placed for J-10B's which also gives time to J-10B to mature and to fly with a Chinese engine.
3) Biggest assumption is that IAF will put up all the fighters against PAF and maintain nothing on other borders. While PAF will be focused entirely on IAF, IAF will have to maintain minimum deterrence strength onher borders.

Also, while MKI has almost reached developmental saturation point, JFT is only just starting and will continue to develop where as MKI will most likely take a while (if at all) to upgrade from the Super MKI model. Finally, I would like to request keep things realistic and to speak of current inventory and those that are either in production or under acquisition. Rafale is yet to be ordered so I'd rather not talk about it or PAF's counter to it.

If you want to restrict the discussion to current inventory, lets us just stick to it. Currently PAF has three squadrons of JF17, 4 of F16. Rest all the aircraft in PAF arsenal are old third gen aircrafts with no BVR capability. Even in fourth gen, only 18 F16s have BVR capability and S10 integration on JF17 is not confirmed and has been questioned by your own compatriots.

Currently IAF is equipped with 8 squadrons of Su-30 MKI, which is more than a match for 7 squadrons of Jf17 and F16 combined. How can you say that JF17 is just starting to develop, when JF17 Blk II is already out and it came with almost zero upgrades, only Blk III is left now. MLU's won't take place before 15 years. No one is saying that India will keep nothing in reserve for china, however we can mobilise all our Su30s to Pakistan border and leave the rest for china if need arises. People need to understand how much this aircraft brings to the table, a single Su30MKI can carry as much weapons as 4 Jf17s and cruise through whole of pakistan, and then come back, and land in India. Its no joke that it defeated F15 during CI-2004

 

[Teeta]

non sense quote. who said to you su30mki range is 300km. its more than 3000km.

indian, he was talking in the context of "mini AWACS"...means he was talking about radar range.

 

[Babbar-Khalsa]

O.K....

In EVERY fight between Mig-29 and F-16, F-16 shot the mig down...I'm talking about real battles, not some "exercises"....

Secondly, U.S pilots don't have nightmares from anything. This isn't IAF we are talking about.....

Thirdly, Su-30 doesn't have the range of 3000 km, but 300 may be...Also, Mr Sukhoi Thirty isn't someone special. Every plane will be carrying jammers, ECM pod, precision strike munitions, rockets and what not. So lets come back to reality now. Su30 is just another 4th gen fighter...nothing big (no matter how badly indians want to believe)...

Lastly, su30 can carry just one cruise missile..and when it is carrying that..I dont think it would be 'fighting' at the same time....

1. Planes dont fight , pilots fight . All the instances you have mentioned are when inexperinced pilots from thirld world countries like IRAQ were gunned down by highly experinced US pilots . Those US pilots were using AWACS also which IRAQIs didnot have . Had it been erstwhile Soviet UNION and a fight between Mig-29s and F-16s , the story would have been much bloodier. Remember that in Korean wars , the soviet pilots (in Korean disguise) inflicted heavy damages to US aircrafts . Had the same airbattle been fought full-on with Soviets, the news would be full of many downed US pilots.

2. Su-30 does have a range of 3000 KMs after refuelling .

3.Agree that every plane carries jammers , ECM pod and etc etc . But that limits their ability to fight . This is not the case with Su-30 . If it fights with the enemy with same configuration , it will outperform by using its high thrust to weight ratio. At any time su-30 would be carrying more weapons and that too in variety .

4. Well , i never said that it carries more than 1 cruise missile , but it doesnot limit its capability to fight .Though there would be some drag while turning but su-30 can deal with it given its powerhouse engine. However , Russians might explain it much better.