How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[Storm Force]

pfP[ILOT

PAF has only 63 F16 (not 80 as you suggested ) . ie 44 F16 which are being upgraded & 18 brand new F16/52...

IT WILL BECOME 80 if you BUY the other 18 block 52s that where offered to you with the FIRST BATCH OF 18 recently.

TO DATE PAF has not excercised this option to buy 18 more F16/52 something i find odd especially since the IAF are adding 20 SU30MKI EACH YEAR TO ITS FLEET.

i THINK THE PAF has put off by the user restrictions on the NEW BATCH OF F16s so will stik to JFT.

UNLESS YOU CAN EXPLAIN WHY PAF has NOT brought those other 18 i,lm all EARS

MAV3RICK

Re your comment PAF will set the rules over PAK AIRSPACE if india attacks

You couldnt be MORE WRONG.

in war since the dawn of time BUT especially since MODERN AIR WARE FARE times ITS THE ATTACKING SIDE that dictates where, time, duration, target, and size of operation. AS A DEFENSIVE FORCE you are letting india dictate how the airwar over pakistan pans out.

 

[Dazzler]

pfP[ILOT

PAF has only 63 F16 (not 80 as you suggested ) . ie 44 F16 which are being upgraded & 18 brand new F16/52...

IT WILL BECOME 80 if you BUY the other 18 block 52s that where offered to you with the FIRST BATCH OF 18 recently.

TO DATE PAF has not excercised this option to buy 18 more F16/52 something i find odd especially since the IAF are adding 20 SU30MKI EACH YEAR TO ITS FLEET.

i THINK THE PAF has put off by the user restrictions on the NEW BATCH OF F16s so will stik to JFT.

UNLESS YOU CAN EXPLAIN WHY PAF has NOT brought those other 18 i,lm all EARS

MAV3RICK

Re your comment PAF will set the rules over PAK AIRSPACE if india attacks

You couldnt be MORE WRONG.

in war since the dawn of time BUT especially since MODERN AIR WARE FARE times ITS THE ATTACKING SIDE that dictates where, time, duration, target, and size of operation. AS A DEFENSIVE FORCE you are letting india dictate how the airwar over pakistan pans out.

Thats the idea, let them come, and unleash the "surprise".

 

[MilSpec]

I think I can keep reposting 3-4 posts in this thread over and over again....

 

[Contrarian]

We have JFT's to counter all your Jets including the MKI's and those JFT's will also be complemented by F-16's & AWACS in the air. I will not even talk about the ground based assets. By the time you have your 272 MKI's we will have 80+ F-16's & 100+ JFT's. By the time you have your 126 Rafale, we will have something to counter it.

You assume that. And look at the difference in the quality of assets. India replaces MiG 21 with a 1:1 ratio of Su-30MKI.
You replace it with JF-17. India buys Rafale , Pakistan keeps buying JF-17.

And this will make a difference coupled with absolute numerical superiority.

 

[Hasnain2009]

if gone for full fledge war then hardly 2-3 days

30mins friend, Shaheen-II would not take more than 30min to reach eastern parts of india.

 

[notorious_eagle]

You assume that. And look at the difference in the quality of assets. India replaces MiG 21 with a 1:1 ratio of Su-30MKI.
You replace it with JF-17. India buys Rafale , Pakistan keeps buying JF-17.

And this will make a difference coupled with absolute numerical superiority.

The only problem is you are only comparing bird to bird. That itself is the fallacy in your perception. So what if India is replacing MIG21's with SU30MKI, it will only be a problem for PAF if its sending the JF17's to fight them 1 on 1. But fortunately, aerial warfare is not fought 1 on 1 between birds. There are a whole set of other factors that come into play that can change the face of the aerial warfare.

It are only fanboys whom look at fancy new birds and start comparing their specs with other birds. But a real war is fought by keeping multiple factors in mind backed up by a multi layered comprehensive strategy. It is not just the aerial birds that the pilot has to worry about but what about the threat from the ground. What if the enemy pilot forces you to drop down to 1000 ft and let his hidden gunners on the ground slaughter you in the air.

Looking at the stance of Indian Air Head Quarters, it appears that they are not confident of downing the PAF in their prescribed strategy. This is why they haven't itched to fight it out, and that is why they are adding additional hardware to counter PAF's improvement in her gaps.

Numerical superiority does not exist in Indo-Pak warfare. For argument sakes, lets say that IAF intends to field 750 fighters against PAF's 350. First of all, IAF is not going to throw up all her birds in the air and attack PAF in massive formations as seen in World War 2. In today's modern warfare, strike packages are the name of the game and the question is how many strike packages can the IAF afford to send. That being said, IAF needs to insert atleast 2-3 squadrons near her border against China to protect her flank. Great AF's operate under the doctrine of not what the intention of the enemy is but what the enemy is capable of. After that, IAF needs to split up her forces into Air Defence, Air Superiority and Close Air Support. Where exactly is the numerical superiority

 

[datalibdaz]

pfP[ILOT

PAF has only 63 F16 (not 80 as you suggested ) . ie 44 F16 which are being upgraded & 18 brand new F16/52...

IT WILL BECOME 80 if you BUY the other 18 block 52s that where offered to you with the FIRST BATCH OF 18 recently.

TO DATE PAF has not excercised this option to buy 18 more F16/52 something i find odd especially since the IAF are adding 20 SU30MKI EACH YEAR TO ITS FLEET.

i THINK THE PAF has put off by the user restrictions on the NEW BATCH OF F16s so will stik to JFT.

UNLESS YOU CAN EXPLAIN WHY PAF has NOT brought those other 18 i,lm all EARS

MAV3RICK

Re your comment PAF will set the rules over PAK AIRSPACE if india attacks

You couldnt be MORE WRONG.

in war since the dawn of time BUT especially since MODERN AIR WARE FARE times ITS THE ATTACKING SIDE that dictates where, time, duration, target, and size of operation. AS A DEFENSIVE FORCE you are letting india dictate how the airwar over pakistan pans out.

The number of F16 's are 87 of which 4 were destroyed in accidents, So now PAF has 83 F 16's...Please correct your facts.

 

[ziaulislam]

PAKISTAN HAS 67 F-16 plus 14 MIGHT BE released..
i think these 80 odd f-16s will be core force that are comparable to 270 odd MKIs(once induction completes)..j-10Bs will be the core answer to 120 Rafale..
again there isnt a answer ot specific aircraft..in another word every PAF fighter can take Su-30 (thunder/f-16s) in combine intergated warfare scenrio

in the end PAF will try to keep nos and strength ratio of approx 1: 2.5 to 1:3, as it has in past

a number of around 350 ACs (150 jf-17s, 150 f-16s+j-10s and 50 odd f-7pg) will be desire strength till 2020, after which 50-60 odd 5th gen ACs will be PAF target

this will be against 800 odd IAF fighters with approx 150 5th gen ac to be inducted

 

[DARKY]

Are you publicly stating the Indian Defence Budget at $100Billion?

Even then there is a magnitude of 7 difference. Plus US budget is procurement & maintenance. Wars, development costs borne by Defence Industry are not included. Intelligence is a separate blockbuster. Lastly US does not see India as an adversary nor is AA-12 Adder (Izdeliye 170) Indian origin weapon. Nevertheless, let me assure you that AA-12 is a very good BVRAAM of 1980s vintage with some further development. Let us just end on this. "AIM-120D \C-8 is being deployed with taking all this into account". Unless you want to make history here by telling us AA-12 has been tested at extreme ranges of 1XX nm by Indian Flankers with kill probablility >50 under dense electronic jamming & clutter....that would just make my day!!!!

One last thing before I bail; what does this actually mean? ..."Su30MKI being excellent at in WVR can avoid that thanks to its superior BVR.." Huh? Mighty cryptic?

Neither did I include the developmental costs borne by the Industry.
I agree about Intelligence... Hence the MMRCA evaluations on the F-16block70... and SH with their latest AESA radars and weapon systems including Aim120D.
Not to say about the yearly exercises with Singapore and Israeli air forces to know more on earleir blocks of F-16 and Aim120.

India too doesn't see US as its adversary... while the US is trying to enter the defense market in India they are also trying to built a strategic partnership.

Aim120 is roughly of the same time with additional improvement.. although agree I that RVV-SD would fall behind Aim120D in performance electronically and in kinematics(due to the dual-pulse rocket motor)... However it is well upto the mark with C5/6 versions electronically with better performance in kinematics and range.

Such simulations are usually carried by IAF in different air exercise and for weapon testing... however little is available about such tests.

Thats based on the evaluation conducted thought the years and using different data from overs scores of air exercises between different aircrafts and Su30MKI... without escort support by EW aircrafts... Its hard to survive against a Su30MKI.

 

[Mav3rick]

You assume that. And look at the difference in the quality of assets. India replaces MiG 21 with a 1:1 ratio of Su-30MKI.
You replace it with JF-17. India buys Rafale , Pakistan keeps buying JF-17.

And this will make a difference coupled with absolute numerical superiority.

Now lets have a look at your assumptions:

1) All Mig-21's to be replaced by SU-30MKI whereas 7 squadrons (around 120) Mig-21's are supposed to be replaced by LCA. SU-30MKI strength is envisioned at 270-272 and no more.
2) PAF counters the acquisition of Rafale with JF-17 where as Rafale will most likely be countered by J-10B's. Since no order has been placed for Rafale, no order has been placed for J-10B's which also gives time to J-10B to mature and to fly with a Chinese engine.
3) Biggest assumption is that IAF will put up all the fighters against PAF and maintain nothing on other borders. While PAF will be focused entirely on IAF, IAF will have to maintain minimum deterrence strength on other borders.

Also, while MKI has almost reached developmental saturation point, JFT is only just starting and will continue to develop where as MKI will most likely take a while (if at all) to upgrade from the Super MKI model. Finally, I would like to request keep things realistic and to speak of current inventory and those that are either in production or under acquisition. Rafale is yet to be ordered so I'd rather not talk about it or PAF's counter to it.

 

[Storm Force]

Replying to notorious

Where exactly is the numerical superiority

Air superiority in the 21st Century does not come in nos BUT in Technology, firepower, force multiplers,

ie One Sqn of su30mki 18 planes carrying 180 BVRs between them supported by phalcon awacs for jamming and survallence is equal 40 thunders armed with 4 bvrs sd10s and one awacs.

i am completely discounting other advantages of aoa, range , jammers ew suites and nos of simulataneous engagements.

 

[applesauce]

Replying to notorious



Air superiority in the 21st Century does not come in nos BUT in Technology, firepower, force multiplers,

ie One Sqn of su30mki 18 planes carrying 180 BVRs between them supported by phalcon awacs for jamming and survallence is equal 40 thunders armed with 4 bvrs sd10s and one awacs.

i am completely discounting other advantages of aoa, range , jammers ew suites and nos of simulataneous engagements.

ahh but you also forget the costs, if one mki goes down, then what? cry to russia/israel/etc to ship you more parts? will they? at what costs? if one jf-17 goes down it can be replaced quickly either by Pakistan itself or "rush ordered" from china.

 

[airomerix]

Comparasion of AIM-120C-5 to AA-12 is an insult to AMRAAM itself. The accuracy and reliability of AIM-120C still leaves every other European/Chinese/Russian BVR behind let alone the D and later C versions.

Even the RAF requested the EADs to integrate AMRAAM on to the Typhoon which is yet another evidence of its roaring sucess. Honestly a pilot would want a Mig at an airshow but in a combat F-16/F-15s are still unmatched.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Replying to notorious



Air superiority in the 21st Century does not come in nos BUT in Technology, firepower, force multiplers,

ie One Sqn of su30mki 18 planes carrying 180 BVRs between them supported by phalcon awacs for jamming and survallence is equal 40 thunders armed with 4 bvrs sd10s and one awacs.

i am completely discounting other advantages of aoa, range , jammers ew suites and nos of simulataneous engagements.

If i am the pilot of SU30MKI; as soon as i see the enemy pilot painting me and launching his BVR missiles, the first thing i will do is jettison my external fuel tanks and extra BVR missiles to take evasive manoeuvres. SU30MKI's huge RCS means that the enemy will spot this machine from miles and miles away. But spotting the M2K's and the Rafale's, thats going to be tricky. I am more afraid of these planes than the SU30MKI punching through PAF's defences.

The PAF's weakness remains its offensive capability, and that is where the IAF will remain supreme. While Pakistani airspace will be well defended and hard to penetrate successfully, the Indian airspace defense will be even more formidable.

Sir

You are right about the fact that PAF has limited ability to operate over Indian Air Space due to inferior numbers and quality of jets. But that being said, PAF has invested heavily in stand off range weapons. There is no reason to send a strike package for a long range aerial strike when a cruise missile or a long range glide bomb with pinpoint accuracy can do the same job.

 

[Teeta]

74 pages and people are still discussing how one professional air force will take on its enemy's aircraft? Is this a joke or something?

Su-30MKI isn't any F-22 or something...As far as I know, PAF operates F-16s, JF-17s , and AWACS.

These 4th generation fighters, armed with AIM-120Cs, backed by AWACS/data-link, would be more than enough to take on Su-30s....

Not to mention the ECM , air-defence units etc that Su-30s will face over hostile, heavily defended Pakistani skies....