How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[danger007]

That may be your understanding. Ours is that both the countries are working hard to fulfill the requirements of PAF (150-250 Jets) and are seriously negotiating with many countries on the sale of JF-17's after internal orders are exhausted. There is also serious development being committed to JF-17's (Block II & Block III) as well as development of a twin seat trainer/fighter Jet.

So you mean only JF-17 will go for upgrade... But MKI will not go for any upgrade...huh.... let blk-II role out then we can talk about 3 or 4th blocks...

 

[Storm Force]

You guys SHOWING OFF radar ranges of KLJ7 & KLJ10 & BARS PESA are missing the most important point.

It shows your lack of understanding

RANGE IS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS PROCESSING SPEED & ANTI JAMMING CAPABILITY.

THE REASON AESA RADARS ARE GAME CHANGERS IS BECAUSE they process the same info that a MSA radar does in one/tenth of the time.

ie what takes KL7/10 40 seconds an AESA does in 4 seconds

PESA radars are step up from MSA radars and a 2 steps down AN AESA.

this means your MKI pilot will see things twice as fast as your F16/JFT/F7 pilot maybe even three x as fast

ALSO a bars radar is much harder to JAM than a MSA.

see give us a break with your RCS & RADAR RANGES.

please

 

[MilSpec]

There is just one problem with your post, pakistan signed an agreement with US saying that they cannot use f-16 as a tactical/interceptor against India and if they do US will terminate all future upgrades and spare parts.

If you have a stick and sword, what will you employ first....

 

[SQ8]

Which is to be used on block 2... and aren't present on block 1 as of now.

Maybe if you took your head out of repetitive parroting you will hear of something known as continuous life-cycle upgrades.
Something that you see in your windows as well whenever they update a system. So whether you purchased a windows 7 in 2008 or today. The former gets updated to the same specification to the one today.
When it comes to Radars, LRU's are updated and software if upgraded to match the capability of the newer models.
How about you leave Kopps page and look up into how radars from the same family get updated.

 

[MilSpec]

We have 100+ Mig-21s which will take care of the point defense in today's scenario. Though there are old and flying coffins, it is BVR capable, (can carry up to 4 so far I remember) have good ECM too. You can't just write it off them as on today. There will be a gap when they gonna retire one by one and LCA coming up so slowly indeed.

Mig21Bisons getting into a wvr fight with F16s is Ram nam satya!!! Mig29 from nasik 11bdr and pune lohegaon are stationed for patrolling trombay high.. not mig21's. Throwing in mig 21's in a mix of other air superior fighters, then it can do some damage flying right on the treetop level , firing it's salvo and disengaging. I have the utmost respect for mig 21 'bisons, but taking f16's one on one is just not possible for the bisons.

LCA mk2 if becomes what i envisage it to be, in defensive role, it will give a run for the money to anything in the subcontinent. The dynamics of the subcontinent will indeed change 2015 onwards with rafale and LCA mk2 becoming operational. Thats when Mig29 UPG, MKI and m2005 mk2 and rafales will be freed to do what they were intended for.

I have always maintained that we have a need for additional 100 Mig 29/35, which never came. there was something brewing with SFC having it's own dedicated sqdn, but unfortunately seems to have not materialized.

 

[SQ8]

AS THE JFT project director quoted JFT currently is a 3.5 gen fighter and 4 years away from becoming a mature reliable platfiorm.

that's the confusion between what is a Chinese 3rd gen and a western 4th gen.

 

[MilSpec]

You guys SHOWING OFF radar ranges of KLJ7 & KLJ10 & BARS PESA are missing the most important point.

It shows your lack of understanding

RANGE IS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS PROCESSING SPEED & ANTI JAMMING CAPABILITY.

THE REASON AESA RADARS ARE GAME CHANGERS IS BECAUSE they process the same info that a MSA radar does in one/tenth of the time.

ie what takes KL7/10 40 seconds an AESA does in 4 seconds

PESA radars are step up from MSA radars and a 2 steps down AN AESA.

this means your MKI pilot will see things twice as fast as your F16/JFT/F7 pilot maybe even three x as fast

ALSO a bars radar is much harder to JAM than a MSA.

see give us a break with your RCS & RADAR RANGES.

please

Dear members,

I would like to present my views on this thread which seems to have gathered a lot of momentum. I will not be able to go into critical data on an open forum. I have been following aviation posts and have certain perspective that I would like to present to remove the a few misconceptions regarding the SU30 MKI.I have worked for HAL nasik division and have interacted with quite a few CTP’s to be in a decent position to give you a general perspective on the SU30MKI and its subsystems.

SU 30 MKI Airframe: MKI’s airframe is very similar to Russian base model irrespective of what others claim. It differs slightly on the load requirements that were presented to the Russians during the development. I left HAL 4 yrs ago, back then there were plans to use domestic material instead of Russian with same or better physical characteristics which is not necessarily an improvement performance wise but a cost saving measure.

Radar: PESA BARS N011 Bars is the biggest ace up IAF’s sleeve, without divulging into the details detecting range, I can very confidently say that this radar has better resolution, noise cancellation and detection range than Captor and RBE2 hands down. Nothing in the subcontinent can come close to this radar today. I am not fully aware of Chinese subsystems, but this was the take of two Russian CTP’s 4 years ago. I don’t think PAF’s jf 17 radar is as good, but that’s my perspective and I could be wrong.
SU 30 MKI another advantage it can function as airborne command post and has excellent ability to function as such due to the two person crew and its radar.

Avionics: Additional subsystems like the Israeli HUD, OLS 30, laser/infrared hybrid IRST or also called optical laser tracker is very handy device. IAF and USAF goes gaga over the litening pod, it is as good as it gets.

Upgrades: have been discussed to death, so won’t go there again

Misconception on this forum about MKI

Airshow aircraft

There is a general American sentiment of flanker that it is a airshow aircraft which has permeated especially in Pakistani members here. Although the thrust vectoring is something I wouldn’t credit in WVR, without its pucgahevs and tail slides, its still a very high tvr and is a very nimble and agile dogfighter. Its weapons loadout gives immense amount of firepower in WVR conflict with its inherent disadvantage being size.

Lets not forget a fact that SU 30 MKI despite its airshow maneuvers is an excellent high speed performer. Its avionics, radar and weapons load out makes it a deadly BVR platform.

MKI is a huge blip on the radar waiting to be shot down

To begin with I am not a big believer in BVR combat to the ranges that people think it is effective. BVR regime is most effective to half the radar tracking range sometimes even less. Jammers awacs , Self protection suites have equally evolved as have the BVR missiles. MKI is RCS is not much different from that of a F15SE and I don’t hear the American complain about it. Indian pilots that I have interacted with will never say anything against their plane , but from what I have heard from the Russian ctp’s SU27 and su30 are not straight up traditional A2A packages. The A2A combat philosophy is more of simultaneous staggered formations entering tactical area to obtain maximum results . Su 30 MkI is not a lone gun slinger which will go up and bring down an aircraft with every pull of the trigger as some of my fellow countrymen here believe.

Pakistan’s counter to SU30 MKI.

Theoretically you can bring down any aircraft with from fro any platform that PAF fields. Hitting a MKI is not miracle and is possible by almost every platform, But in my honest opinion the most effective platform that counters the threat of MKI’s firepower and range is PAF’s SAAB ERIEYE. Awacs platform has given the capability to PAF to detec MKI, SMT, UPG, M2k even a rustom that flies into Pakistani airspace and device a counter to thwart the treat. Hence I wouldn’t be rushing to order f22’s as of yet, PAF is very well prepared to faceoff IAF successfully at the present movement. SAAB erieye and the chiniese awacs platform will provide a stiff counter to whatever IAF throws at them.

........................

 

[Storm Force]

Sandy

you seem to know your stuff.

CAN YOU SHED ANY LIGHT ON THE SUPER SUKHOI uprade programme ie

WN AND HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE?
Will IAF upgrade all or only some fighters
AESA radar when wil it come is it the snow leopard ibris aesa
RCS reduction options likely hood

 

[DARKY]

Maybe if you took your head out of repetitive parroting you will hear of something known as continuous life-cycle upgrades.
Something that you see in your windows as well whenever they update a system. So whether you purchased a windows 7 in 2008 or today. The former gets updated to the same specification to the one today.
When it comes to Radars, LRU's are updated and software if upgraded to match the capability of the newer models.
How about you leave Kopps page and look up into how radars from the same family get updated.

The article talks about that being ready by 2012.
Now that you are talking about life cycle upgrades... does it make sense to delay the block 2 and work on upgrading earlier block radars ?... I am sure you understand that its not like updating your Window 7 from what it was in 2008 to current status... now in 2012.
And If upgraded what further capability it has added to earlier Jf-17 other than dropping gravity bombs and firing heat seeking missiles... (now since it is clear that block 2 brings in the BVR upgrade).

 

[SQ8]

The article talks about that being ready by 2012.
Now that you are talking about life cycle upgrades... does it make sense to delay the block 2 and work on upgrading earlier block radars ?... I am sure you understand that its not like updating your Window 7 from what it was in 2008 to current status... now in 2012.
And If upgraded what further capability it has added to earlier Jf-17 other than dropping gravity bombs and firing heat seeking missiles... (now since it is clear that block 2 brings in the BVR upgrade).

Nope, it is not clear that block-2 brings in the BVR upgrade. The BVR capability has been there since block-1.
Please find coherent articles or sources that state otherwise.

Again, read through my post and as to how life cycle upgrades are implemented in Radars before talking again about stopping work on block-2 or otherwise. You dont need to spam the forum with repetition without reading the others post carefully.

 

[Armstrong]

Nope, it is not clear that block-2 brings in the BVR upgrade. The BVR capability has been there since block-1.
Please find coherent articles or sources that state otherwise.

Again, read through my post and as to how life cycle upgrades are implemented in Radars before talking again about stopping work on block-2 or otherwise. You dont need to spam the forum with repetition without reading the others post carefully.

Didn't the F-7PGs also have border-line BVR capability ?

A noob question : Too how far can we take the JF-17 with each subsequent upgrade in 'theory' ? Which is to say till how long can we keep on upgrading them in the same manner the F-16s began with its base line version & is now entering its Block 60 version, before a design limitation of the JF-17 impedes any further upgrades ?

 

[SQ8]

Didn't the F-7PGs also have border-line BVR capability ?

A noob question : Too how far can we take the JF-17 with each subsequent upgrade in 'theory' ? Which is to say till how long can we keep on upgrading them in the same manner the F-16s began with its base line version & is now entering its Block 60 version, before a design limitation of the JF-17 impedes any further upgrades ?

Not beyond anything that resembles a block-52+ in JF-17 terms. The idea of the fighter is to be cost effective, if it loses than then you are better off trying to find second hand F-16's or otherwise.

 

[Armstrong]

Not beyond anything that resembles a block-52+ in JF-17 terms. The idea of the fighter is to be cost effective, if it loses than then you are better off trying to find second hand F-16's or otherwise.

I read somewhere on this forum that the current version (or the projected one) of the JF-17 has the dog fighting capability of earlier model F-16s & perhaps an avionics & ECM suite approaching that of a Block 40...is this true ?

Khair at any rate would it be correct to say that a high-low mix of JF-17s resembling Block-52s in performance & the J-31s could be something like what the Turkish Air Force (TuAF) seems to be doing with its F-16 & F-35 high-low mixture or is the quality gap too large to ever bring the two of them (respective mixes) on par or even reasonably on par ?

Thanks...much obliged !

 

[MilSpec]

Sandy

you seem to know your stuff.

CAN YOU SHED ANY LIGHT ON THE SUPER SUKHOI uprade programme ie

WN AND HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE?
Will IAF upgrade all or only some fighters
AESA radar when wil it come is it the snow leopard ibris aesa
RCS reduction options likely hood

your guess is as good as mine, i left HAL 5 years ago.
My understanding is HAL is pushing for a bigger ZHUK Aesa radar for SU30MKI, but IAF is adamant on the Irbis AESA meant for PAKFA, the later is going to be very expensive and I doubt if will be available for Super Su upgrade as is still under development. There is a very high possibility that all new MKI's post 2014 will get AESA radar and Brahmos capability.

 

[Mav3rick]

yeah the swift reaction against 200+ Su 30MKI can be already seen.

It's not an irony how you jumped from RAFALE to MKI, it's just you! Well, we have all that we need to counter 200 MKI plus whatever else IAF has currently and we will continue to grow capability to counter IAF within our airspace.

Yeah sense is non sense there in your country and for you It seems.
Bars are a generation ahead of KLJ-7 simply due to the fact that it uses a phased array antenna while KLJ-7 uses slotted planar array which is mechanically steered.
The Figures for KLJ-7 stands at 75Km for 3m^2 in look up and 35km for the same in look down mode.
While for BARS its stands at 220Km for 3m^2... Besides that It the radars stand replacement with a more powerful Zhuk-ASE which would give figures of upto 400km for 3m^2 targets.
However It is useless explaining such things as your madarsa educated brain would find that funny and nonsense.

It isn't as of now.. and you didn't mention which AWE&C.

I asked "What are ground based EW/ECM/ECCM ? What affect they have on air borne radars ?"
since you claimed you prove... or is it done otherwise there in Pakistan.

Disregarding your personal attacks, have a look at the RCS of MKI with even 4 Missiles, JF-17 will spot it without an AWEACS at a distance of 120km (perhaps even more with current upgrades), the MKI with its massive radar and RCS is also a massive homing beacon for capable missiles. In this way, JFT will spot the MKI at a similar distance that MKI will spot the JFT at. Fortunately for us, we are armed with missiles a lot more capable then anything you have.

And it is as of now, unlike your imagination of Zhuk-ASE on MKI. And all the AWEACS.

Google.

And Su30 is Just the tip... there are death stars and Aladdin's lamp with our airforce.

For your own good.
How can Know what you collected and conclude about such.

Yeah is there any problem with that ?
Or is it wrong according to your madarssa logic ?

I cannot help you on that... you simply seem to defy Physics here the SAP518/SAP14 combo which is more powerful than the ALQ jammers and ECM present on Growler is somehow crap.
Israeli jammers are available for Mig21bisons even and they did score kills on F-15/16s using that.. during cope Indias.

Bisons probably scored kills during cope India......by dropping out of the sky!

Listen, kid, specifications/models/features are things that are tested in real wars (maybe even simulated battles up to some extent). However, the Russian jammers have been tested and tried time and again they have have never been up to the mark.....like never!

Your Israeli jammers (not in enough quantity to be deployed on all MKIs) are something that would worry PAF, no other jammer would.

How can a destroyer escort a supersonic fighter... same with a SAM battery... are you all right ?

What the hell are you talking about???? You brought up some **** and bull story about your MKI's challenging Chinese air space and escorted out after completing their mock attacks!

USAF has fired 13 AIM120 BVR and achieved success on only 6 a success rate of 45% much higher than your claimed estimate about Russians BVRs.

USAF has fired 16 AIM-120 (mostly versions inferior to C5) and shot down a total of 13 Airborne assets. Success rate stands at > 81%

You'll find only when you look for it
Its at the post #906.

No, it's not! Russian BVR's have yet to score a hit after multiple launches.

You cannot datalink F-16block52 with your swedish or chinese AWACS is one example of it... where is the trust ?

Tell that to the stupid engineers/programmers of PAF that have datalinked F-16's (all of them) to the SAAB AWEACS & now even the Chinese ones! That'll teach them a lesson!

After Su-30 MKI gets the Super Sukhoi upgrade then you guys won't have chance to counter the plane with plane of your own. You guys probably have to rely on SAMs and other air defense. But really in a war scenario would kinda be useless especially if India moves far into pakistan territory then we would be able to capture some on your air defenses. JFT is a plane that is equal to the lca tejas and f16 would be good against mig 29 but f16 would probably beat it .

Hmmm.....do you think it would be because we would be downgrading our Jets while MKI's get updates? Perhaps you did not realize that we would be upgrading our defensive assets simultaneously.