How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[alimobin memon]

The JF-17 may in special circumstances be "able to take on MKI" but in most cases the MKI will see the JF-17 much earlier and be able to take due action before the Thunder ever even knows the MKI is out there- the MKI will see the JF-17 at 140km, the JF-17 will see the MKI at ~115 km.

Now take into consideration that from 2013/14 the MKIs will begin a "deep upgrade" known as the "Super" upgrade that will equip the MKI with an AESA radar, a new weapons suite ( Meteor/R-77 are going to part of it along with others) and RCS reduction through RAM coatings aswell as a greatly improved EW suite. So the MKI will be able to detect all PAF a/c at much greater ranges and engage them and the opposition a/c will be much less likely to ever see a MKI let alone engage it. Also if the oppostion a/c ever did manage to get lucky and get within missile range of the MKI the EW suite would make it much harder to lock-on an secure a kill wherin a WVR fight might ensue and we all know of the MKIs super-maneuverability with canards and TVC. One of the main criticisms always used by members here to attack the MKI is its relatively large RCS and now that is being addressed.

Very Good Explanation , However if we look at present there is not much advantage to MKI . but in 2014 -15 AESA i think only AESA is enough to make difficult for jf17 , But PAF might also bring a new block for jf17 in development by then.

 

[MilSpec]

Can Fc1's have a data link with the F16's???

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

My friend if Su30MKI is flying above will give Jf17 advantage of Greater radar range since LOOK up range is greater than look down and no one can in present judge if EW SUITE OF jf17 is less or SU30MKI's greater

it is simple common sense that bigger aircraft like mki can accommodate bigger and powerful radar and electronic warfare system.small ones can't because of space, power and in this case cost also.

a missile fired from higher altitude from an aircraft flying at match 2 will get at least 20% to 30% advantage in range and time.

 

[alimobin memon]

it is simple common sense that bigger aircraft like mki can accommodate bigger and powerful radar and electronic warfare system.small ones can't because of space, power and in this case cost also.

a missile fired from higher altitude from an aircraft flying at match 2 will get at least 20% to 30% advantage in range and time.

In Case of Radar Look up has greater advantage than look down so no advantage for one flying above.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

In Case of Radar Look up has greater advantage than look down so no advantage for one flying above.

you may be right frankly I don't know about it.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Very Good Explanation , However if we look at present there is not much advantage to MKI . but in 2014 -15 AESA i think only AESA is enough to make difficult for jf17 , But PAF might also bring a new block for jf17 in development by then.

You're right to an extent- in a BVR fight there is about 30-40 kms in it and when you've got two opposing jet fighters traveling at speeds in excess of Mach 1 this is only really about 10 seconds of time for the MKI to capitalize on the radar advantage which obviously isn't much. Of course when you factor in weapons and EW suites it can be a different story. As a "bomb-truck" the JF-17 is pretty good- it does what it says on the can and is quite some "bang for your buck".

 

[alimobin memon]

you may be right frankly I don't know about it.

http://www.selexgalileo.com/EN/Common/files/SELEX_Galileo/Products/GRIFO_S.pdf u will see in end of page as a example the range difference

 

[Jungibaaz]

The JF-17 may in special circumstances be "able to take on MKI" but in most cases the MKI will see the JF-17 much earlier and be able to take due action before the Thunder ever even knows the MKI is out there- the MKI will see the JF-17 at 140km, the JF-17 will see the MKI at ~115 km.

Sure sources say MKI can detect a 'fighter sized target' meaning 5m^2 at 140km which is where you've got that figure from.
But KLJ-7 can detect even a 5m^2 target above the 115km range you've stated.

MKI is much larger and could be detected in ranges in excess of 150km.

Now I ma not saying that they are equal, nor am I saying that MKI doesn't have greater capability.
But MKI and JF-17 both have the capability to kill each other and when placed in the Indo-Pak theater where range of engagement is smaller and AWACS are in play... It's anyone's game at times.

Now take into consideration that from 2013/14 the MKIs will begin a "deep upgrade" known as the "Super" upgrade that will equip the MKI with an AESA radar, a new weapons suite ( Meteor/R-77 are going to part of it along with others) and RCS reduction through RAM coatings aswell as a greatly improved EW suite. So the MKI will be able to detect all PAF a/c at much greater ranges and engage them and the opposition a/c will be much less likely to ever see a MKI let alone engage it. Also if the oppostion a/c ever did manage to get lucky and get within missile range of the MKI the EW suite would make it much harder to lock-on an secure a kill wherin a WVR fight might ensue and we all know of the MKIs super-maneuverability with canards and TVC. One of the main criticisms always used by members here to attack the MKI is its relatively large RCS and now that is being addressed.

I have no doubt Super MKI will be impressive and from what we think we know, it will outclass JF-17 of the foreseeable future.
But that is for the future right? that is why i wont go there, since you cannot compare since no-one knows much about the Block II and III JF-17.

 

[alimobin memon]

You're right to an extent- in a BVR fight there is about 30-40 kms in it and when you've got two opposing jet fighters traveling at speeds in excess of Mach 1 this is only really about 10 seconds of time for the MKI to capitalize on the radar advantage which obviously isn't much. Of course when you factor in weapons and EW suites it can be a different story. As a "bomb-truck" the JF-17 is pretty good- it does what it says on the can and is quite some "bang for your buck".

Yea Abingdonboy you are right , I hope the SU30MKI if upgraded in 2014 , then should JF17 too or there will be huge gape.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Yea Abingdonboy you are right , I hope the SU30MKI if upgraded in 2014 , then should JF17 too or there will be huge gape.

Haha- great answer! Indians and Pakistanis should thank one another for some of the awesome gear they get- if it weren't for the MMRCA the PAF wouldn't even be looking at the J-10, if it weren't for the PHALCON AWACS the PAF wouldn't have gone for the Erieye or ZDK similarly if it weren't for the F-16 the IAF wouldn't have gone for the MiG-29.

It is sad this is the case but that is the world we live in.

 

[Mr.Hunt]

That is a fair estimate. I'd agree with you and put the detection range for 10m^2 around 140km given the range for 5m^2 as you've said is 120km. But the upgraded KLJ-7 has a detection range for a fighter sized target up to 130km. Now that would probably mean a target representing 5m^2.



The KLJ-7's only a bit less in terms of power then the APG-68.
And that I'm talking about the old stat, plans were underway to increase the power, meaning greater range without the cost of target resolution.



That's true BARS Hybrid ESA is harder to jam UNLESS you use a specific jamming technique and signal.



I never said that JF-17 was more capable, the question is can it take on MKI?
I would say it certainly can.

JF-17 has a massive RCS advantage, lowest RCS of all PAF airforce aircraft, putting in the F-16 Class of RCS so easily 1-2m^2.

Now MKI's RCS is higher than the Su-27 because of canards and extra seat.
and frontal RCS clean would be at least 10m^2, armed would likely be 15m^2 all the way up to 20 depending on weapons configuration. Meaning the KLJ-7 could detect the MKI at long ranges.

So I believe that MKI's radar advantage is made up for by JF-17's RCS advantage and MKI's assive RCS

Do u think that KLJ-7 V2 is Superior to ZHUK ME on MIG-29M. Zhuk ME is the latest Operational radar on MIG-29. ZHUK ME has as a range or 120 kms for 5m2 RCS. KLJ -7 is based on russian Phazotron N010 Zhuk radar which is a generation below ZHUK ME.

Single engine fighters cannot support high power radar. Example Compare the radars oif F-35 vs F-22. I have considered the KLJ-7v2 while doing the calculations.The detection of range for KLJ-7v2 for 10 m2 RCS cannot be more then 140 kms. Because " So as the Target range increases, The tracking range % gets reduced due to loss of power & disturbance in reception of reflected wave. Therefore consider 77-80 % as tracking range for 10 m2 RCS target. Even at 80% of 140kms the tracking range would be 112 kms."

& Su-30MKI carry a very good Israel Electronic Warfare Suite. In Electronic warfare JF-17 Is at serious disadvantage.

 

[Mr.Hunt]

You cannot compare Su-30MKI. with JF-17. Both are different class of fighters. If F-16 was so good why did USA even built F-15 ?
Heavy fighters are necessary to DOMINATE the opponent.
Why is China Manufacturing/Developing J-11 when they already have J-10 ?
Single engine fighters are good for defence but u need heavy twin engine fighters if you think of WINNING & not just defending yourself.
F-22, Typhoon, Rafale, Su-30MKI, Su-35BM, J-11, F-18, F-15 Can never be substituted by JAS-39, J-10, JF-17.....
Just think of the below point & see who wins.
Agility: Su-30MKI.
Radar: Su-30MKI.
Range: Su-30MKI.
Weapons: Su-30MKI.
Electronic Warfare: Su-30MKI.
Numbers in Servive: Su-30MKI.
RCS: JF-17

 

[alimobin memon]

You cannot compare Su-30MKI. with JF-17. Both are different class of fighters. If F-16 was so good why did USA even built F-15 ?
Heavy fighters are necessary to DOMINATE the opponent.
Why is China Manufacturing/Developing J-11 when they already have J-10 ?
Single engine fighters are good for defence but u need heavy twin engine fighters if you think of WINNING & not just defending yourself.
F-22, Typhoon, Rafale, Su-30MKI, Su-35BM, J-11, F-18, F-15 Can never be substituted by JAS-39, J-10, JF-17.....
Just think of the below point & see who wins.
Agility: Su-30MKI.
Radar: Su-30MKI.
Range: Su-30MKI.
Weapons: Su-30MKI.
Electronic Warfare: Su-30MKI.
Numbers in Servive: Su-30MKI.
RCS: JF-17

Hahahahha Kid F15 came Before F16 and For your information Zhuk me I read it's detail it is indeed Less in AA mode , claiming KLJ7 as one generation below (only moron would think so). My Friend KLJ7 "was" a copy of old zhuk radar "but" like J11 it added chinese expertise to improving it to further level. The old generation radar was bought from Russia in 1990's and klj7 was inducted tested first time in 2007 where are you? but according to you logically you are also saying j10A radar is also old generation? ... You are a Fanatic seriously no one know's the power of Electronic warfare suite of Jf17 and I never said jf17 is superior but in Present If we look technically SU30MKI would have only 4-5 seconds advantage before jf17 engages.
Don't Judge A Book By It's Cover
if u know what I mean't.
Oh and I just found a great information THAT SU30MKI has 120 km detection range for 5m^2 target and even if by 85% (for your sake ) the engagement range is 102!!! , Where as by 80% it is 96KM.
Further for your information russians are already worried about their 4th generation MIG 29 as it losses edge over jf17 and block 2 god knows what it would be ... Lates variant of MIG29 is SMT which is focused more on Ground attack package which has ZHUK ME radar (by the way it is not latest in series)
so .....

 

[notorious_eagle]

The JF-17 may in special circumstances be "able to take on MKI" but in most cases the MKI will see the JF-17 much earlier and be able to take due action before the Thunder ever even knows the MKI is out there- the MKI will see the JF-17 at 140km, the JF-17 will see the MKI at ~115 km.

Now take into consideration that from 2013/14 the MKIs will begin a "deep upgrade" known as the "Super" upgrade that will equip the MKI with an AESA radar, a new weapons suite ( Meteor/R-77 are going to part of it along with others) and RCS reduction through RAM coatings aswell as a greatly improved EW suite. So the MKI will be able to detect all PAF a/c at much greater ranges and engage them and the opposition a/c will be much less likely to ever see a MKI let alone engage it. Also if the oppostion a/c ever did manage to get lucky and get within missile range of the MKI the EW suite would make it much harder to lock-on an secure a kill wherin a WVR fight might ensue and we all know of the MKIs super-maneuverability with canards and TVC. One of the main criticisms always used by members here to attack the MKI is its relatively large RCS and now that is being addressed.

You have presented a very valid argument but it fails to take a very important aspect into account, the introduction of AWACS and a fully fused C4I network on PAF's side. PAF has adopted a cost effective solution, instead of arming every plane with a capable radar, she has adopted to install force multipliers(AWACS, 3D Radars and Active/Passive Radars) to mitigate this factor. All aircrafts assigned for AD roles will be data-linked to PAF's command and control centre.

This will enable the JF17 to roughly spot the MKI at approximately the same time as the MKI spots JF17. During the 2008 probing incident, although the AWACS on PAF side were not online they were able to track and vector in interceptors in less than 2 minutes towards the border. That should tell you how capable PAF's radar network is. No matter how much RAM coatings are applied on the MKI, you will never be able to reduce its RCS to a level of that of a Rafale or a EF. Its structurally designed in such a way from its inception, the least the designers can do is reduce the RCS to a minimum level and thats that. MKI is a very capable machine no doubt. If MKI and JF17 were going head to head far out in the ocean without any backup, my money would be on the MKI but wars are not fought 1 on 1. A cohesive strategy that is designed to get the maximum out of each and every asset is the name of the game today.

Haha- great answer! Indians and Pakistanis should thank one another for some of the awesome gear they get- if it weren't for the MMRCA the PAF wouldn't even be looking at the J-10, if it weren't for the PHALCON AWACS the PAF wouldn't have gone for the Erieye or ZDK similarly if it weren't for the F-16 the IAF wouldn't have gone for the MiG-29.

It is sad this is the case but that is the world we live in.

If it were up-to me i would scrap our Armed Forces and use that money for social uplift of the poor, employment generation, education and healthcare.

 

[alimobin memon]

You have presented a very valid argument but it fails to take a very important aspect into account, the introduction of AWACS and a fully fused C4I network on PAF's side. PAF has adopted a cost effective solution, instead of arming every plane with a capable radar, she has adopted to install force multipliers(AWACS, 3D Radars and Active/Passive Radars) to mitigate this factor. All aircrafts assigned for AD roles will be data-linked to PAF's command and control centre.

This will enable the JF17 to roughly spot the MKI at approximately the same time as the MKI spots JF17. During the 2008 probing incident, although the AWACS on PAF side were not online they were able to track and vector in interceptors in less than 2 minutes towards the border. That should tell you how capable PAF's radar network is. No matter how much RAM coatings are applied on the MKI, you will never be able to reduce its RCS to a level of that of a Rafale or a EF. Its structurally designed in such a way from its inception, the least the designers can do is reduce the RCS to a minimum level and thats that. MKI is a very capable machine no doubt. If MKI and JF17 were going head to head far out in the ocean without any backup, my money would be on the MKI but wars are not fought 1 on 1. A cohesive strategy that is designed to get the maximum out of each and every asset is the name of the game today.



If it were up-to me i would scrap our Armed Forces and use that money for social uplift of the poor, employment generation, education and healthcare.

Oh yes who can forget the awacs and "C4I System" by pakistan but u are wrong that RCS of MKI cannot be reduced indeed it can be reduced check the RCS of SU35 BM