How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[Mav3rick]

ummmm....Your post is reported for the bolded parts --- and lastly for the part highlighted in red --

You did that after 26/11 where the whole indian media and nation demanded surgical strikes and the media released reports of the great IAF awaiting the green signal only to chicken out when PAF promised for an equal response ....

The green signal was supposed to come from the US ensuring that PAF would not respond. That would have given IAF and the overall Indian Government a major chest thumping position in the world and at the same time would have consolidated Pakistan for showing restraint and for not pursuing or engaging IAF/India in taking out "alleged" terrorist camps.

However, the Civilian Government could not guarantee a subdued, vocal only response and the Military outright rejected the demands. This was not well taken by the US Government.

India and IAF's hope of an engagement free "precision strike" evaporated as soon as they were delivered the message by the US ambassador that PAF was ready & itching for the challenge!

Dawood bhai jaan and his gang control the hawala channel through which Indian politicans and Indian rich send their money to swiss bank. Now Sonia and her gangs doesn't want to spoil this by attacking Pakistan.
And Indian sunni will not like IAF attacking Pakistan. even when 1\4 of dead in 26\11 were Muslim. Congress party will not want to loose its ever growing sunni vote bank by attacking Pak.

And had India attacked Pakistan at time of 26\11, then it would have given PA a pretext to move its troops from Afghan border.

I don't agree with the first part and Indian Muslims support India in case of war with Pakistan. I know that for a fact. The second part, I can somewhat agree that yes Pakistan would have had to focus entirely on Indian front in case of a war.

But, my friend, can you tell me what the cause was for you to amass almsot a million soldiers at our border to only, unilaterally and unconditionally, withdraw? Not only that, in that 6+ month time period, why could you not cross even an inch of LoC??

 

[Mav3rick]

We are back to the circle with Rose upgrades.

I am saying I will post everything. Just define "kill probability" with a reliable source first. It shouldn't be too hard for you, since you claim to know that "kill probability" of Russian BVRs is less than that of American BVR. Is it so hard for you to post just one definition?

Definition of a kill probability would be hits:launches. Now you may run along and find how many Russian BVR's have been fired to date and even more importantly, how many have hit any target at all. Similarly, find details of American BVR engagements. Hopefully, you will understand how effective your MKI would actually be when it's shot down 40-50km's away while it has also wasted 2-4 expensive BVR Missiles.

Literally, detection is only a part of the game, the bigger challenge is shooting down the adversary and this is where PAF trumps IAF, both in BVR and WVR.

 

[DARKY]

es it does!!
Having trouble posting then? Check your post, accept your mistake and post again!
You mean pictures of IAF & RSAF pilots standing together? Is that what you mean by study? Next time there is an airshow where they display the F-35 & F-22 you must send your pilots for higher studies. Perhaps that's how you evaluated the performance of JFT by looking at brochure pictures! LOL. You are getting seriously pathetic and irony is that you most like know that already!

And yet I am sure!!





So you cannot understand simple posted messages right, perhaps you can understand a single word, let me spell it out for you "P R O O F"!!!

And I can understand your frustration at not being able to back any single claim with proof. You wanna live in a fairyland by all means do, but do not force the rest of us to follow. And dude, keep things linear, stop jumping here and there from RCS to TRMM to what not when demanded proof of Bisons's RCS (Clean).

Starting again, provide proof of Bisons clean RCS of 1m^2, provide proof of detection of 1m^2 targets at 400km's and beyond by the Phalcon and provide proof of Israeli involvement in KJ2K. Otherwise.........well, you know!

Offcourse in your dreams.
And we are yet to see a single JF-17 in service with PAF armed with any BVR whatsoever.

There shows the inability of your pathetic brain again.... they are not just standing together.. they are returning from shorties on F-16block52 some of which you can see parked in the back ground... Singapore Airforce pilots [who have been veterans on F-16 and have more pilots with over 2000 and 1000 hours than what the PAF ever had.. perhaps double the number or even more.] are talking about their birds.

And this is not airshow [I can understand that your poor IQ brain cannot differentiate between air shows and air exercises]... But Air exercise and Training which has been going on in India for about five years or so... I won't be surprised If a few IAF pilots already made it the 100hrs club on F-16block52.

And you were flying the JF-17 to conclude its performance...


Good to see that you can spell words correctly atleast.

I gave the "P R O O F"... in my previous posts... go and read that again... ranting the same thing over and over again doesn't change it.

No body is forcing you to come out of your well... you are better suited to stay there.

That was the point.. you don't understand terms such as RCS, TRMMs... and yet commenting on those.

 

[DARKY]

Keep silly images out of your posts --- next time there will be infractions

What do you expect when people from your side are outright Denialist.
Claiming things like...

JF-17 using Aim120.
PAF having Aim120C7.
The peak power ratings for KLJ-7 is not 550W.[for this he couldn't even come up with his usual imaginary number/stats]
F-16 datalinked with Chinese AEW&C and JF-17 datalinked with SAAB eri-eye.

cannot differentiate between airshows and air exercise.
Doesn't read what was answered and ask for the same answers again.
Perhaps you could have some effect... answer about bold parts before deleting this post.

 

[Viper0011.]

Orangzaib
NO OFFENCE but 160 su30mki can ACHIEVE air superority over PAF which is 75% obselete F7 & ,IRAGE ROSE upgrades.

One sentence response: At The Cost Of What?????

 

[DARKY]

Actually the PAF already possesses the Aim-120 C-5's

And if you wanna compare so that there is no room for doubt then go ahead....

Why you showing this to me ?

 

[GURU DUTT]

wow the thread was how PAF will counter the threat posted by SU30MKI

and there is all kind of verbal jingoism that can be imagined but not one post that can clearli say and 101 pages lost

well what they posted here to support there argument was

1. PAF will in future have 150 JF17 Block XYZ + 80 F16 52's +50 J10B's +150 other aircraft to defend pakistani air space and they have AWACS cover wich will see MKI's from 200 km's and will shoot it down before it can post any thread...but but

in reality its not just 180MKI's(rest will be for eastern front) that they have to think though they very vell know the power of elctronikk hokus phokus MKI's have on boared and it can onli on its strenth alone can enhilate any thing PAF deu to its massive load carrying capacity , a radar wich has no equevelent right now in sub continent(dont bring chinese as they are not goint to fight with IAF ) + all the BVR's& WWR's(missiles)on board MKI's of Israeli , french & russian origins coupled by french HMS IFF systems+Israeli jammers with baking of all french , israeli & russian ground based and airborn radars with net centrik cabality aided by Indian Sat cover

2. now they think IAF pilots are sitting DUCKS as compred to Divine PAF pilots ......

well guess what it isnt 40 years back infra we are having now we have every thing better and bigger than pakistani fan boys ever could imagine both in training and multi national expouser and training inputs(from russian, french israeli & singapori friends)

3.Pakistani AWACS Radars and pakistani SAM wont let IAF have a commanding position.....

well to start with Indian green pines and swordsish + french and israeli + russian radars already see as far beyond as Afghanistan already and we know as what takes of any pakistani airbase well before what pakistani sees within india coupled with sat cover enaballed phalcons wich can locate a threat as far as Afganistan flying well over hundred miles within indian territory & least we forget Indian AAD , PAD ,and other AA bateries which i dont thnk even likes of PALF(though thats main pakistani dream that they will come to rescue) would easy about forget PAF lolzz



4.PAF will enhilate all INDIAN air bases within mins if not hours of starting the war

thought the reality is PAF is now a defending air force which was not the case 40 years back so waeky waeky and IAF will dictate where and when it wants to fight (big diff) + ever wonder what IAF has in store if ever pakistani cruise missiles and airpalnes try to repeate what they achived in 1965


so in short 101 pages wasted and Paksitani freinds are yet to give any substantial answer to MKI threat forget about upgraded MIG's , M2K's among others

 

[Major Sam]

wow the thread was how PAF will counter the threat posted by SU30MKI

and there is all kind of verbal jingoism that can be imagined but not one post that can clearli say and 101 pages lost

well what they posted here to support there argument was

1. PAF will in future have 150 JF17 Block XYZ + 80 F16 52's +50 J10B's +150 other aircraft to defend pakistani air space and they have AWACS cover wich will see MKI's from 200 km's and will shoot it down before it can post any thread...but but

in reality its not just 180MKI's(rest will be for eastern front) that they have to think though they very vell know the power of elctronikk hokus phokus MKI's have on boared and it can onli on its strenth alone can enhilate any thing PAF deu to its massive load carrying capacity , a radar wich has no equevelent right now in sub continent(dont bring chinese as they are not goint to fight with IAF ) + all the BVR's& WWR's(missiles)on board MKI's of Israeli , french & russian origins coupled by french HMS IFF systems+Israeli jammers with baking of all french , israeli & russian ground based and airborn radars with net centrik cabality aided by Indian Sat cover

2. now they think IAF pilots are sitting DUCKS as compred to Divine PAF pilots ......

well guess what it isnt 40 years back infra we are having now we have every thing better and bigger than pakistani fan boys ever could imagine both in training and multi national expouser and training inputs(from russian, french israeli & singapori friends)

3.Pakistani AWACS Radars and pakistani SAM wont let IAF have a commanding position.....

well to start with Indian green pines and swordsish + french and israeli + russian radars already see as far beyond as Afghanistan already and we know as what takes of any pakistani airbase well before what pakistani sees within india coupled with sat cover enaballed phalcons wich can locate a threat as far as Afganistan flying well over hundred miles within indian territory & least we forget Indian AAD , PAD ,and other AA bateries which i dont thnk even likes of PALF(though thats main pakistani dream that they will come to rescue) would easy about forget PAF lolzz



4.PAF will enhilate all INDIAN air bases within mins if not hours of starting the war

thought the reality is PAF is now a defending air force which was not the case 40 years back so waeky waeky and IAF will dictate where and when it wants to fight (big diff) + ever wonder what IAF has in store if ever pakistani cruise missiles and airpalnes try to repeate what they achived in 1965


so in short 101 pages wasted and Paksitani freinds are yet to give any substantial answer to MKI threat forget about upgraded MIG's , M2K's among others

THanks for your Cooperation. Please go back to your home and sleep Tight. You need Rest buddy.

 

[GURU DUTT]

THanks for your Cooperation. Please go back to your home and sleep Tight. You need Rest buddy.

no sir just came to office a couple of hours back ......its too cold and i reaali want to go haome and have some XXX Rum &warmth

But sir ji kaam nahi karoonga to rotee kaun dega meree koi jageeren t hai nahi

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

Definition of a kill probability would be hits:launches. Now you may run along and find how many Russian BVR's have been fired to date and even more importantly, how many have hit any target at all. Similarly, find details of American BVR engagements. Hopefully, you will understand how effective your MKI would actually be when it's shot down 40-50km's away while it has also wasted 2-4 expensive BVR Missiles.

Literally, detection is only a part of the game, the bigger challenge is shooting down the adversary and this is where PAF trumps IAF, both in BVR and WVR.

Kindly, don't invent your own definitions. Post a definition with a proper source. I just want to see when was the term kill probability for a missile was invented by intellectuals.

Hint: A term like "Kill probability of a BVR missile" cannot exist.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Dawood bhai jaan and his gang control the hawala channel through which Indian politicans and Indian rich send their money to swiss bank. Now Sonia and her gangs doesn't want to spoil this by attacking Pakistan.
And Indian sunni will not like IAF attacking Pakistan. even when 1\4 of dead in 26\11 were Muslim. Congress party will not want to loose its ever growing sunni vote bank by attacking Pak.

And had India attacked Pakistan at time of 26\11, then it would have given PA a pretext to move its troops from Afghan border.

OOh--- the same bad Pakistan that was responsible for giving millions to rescue your citizen when you talk about your booming economy and all .... but my answer was never really to you it was to someone who was using sarcasm while personally attacking the nationality and race of an esteemed member ....

 

[abdulbarijan]

First of all, its a rumor. Both the RCS of F22 and detection range of APG-77. Secondly radars go advancements all the time. Once again, I have never said WVR will never occur. Answer just simple questions?

Is BVR the dominant form of combat today when air superiority aircrafts face off?
Is the ratio of BVR engagements today higher than it was yesterday?

I took the figures from F-16.net, anyways what the heck --- umm depends on the superiority aircrafts your talking about, the BVR missiles are not just shot 150-170 odd Km's away from the target ...its like wasting your missiles --- in today's world you have bvr shots in like 50-70 odd Km range, and even then you cant say 100 percent success because even aircrafts like JF-17 are now equipt with EW suites, you have a whole array of jamming equipment --- You now have equipment warning you about missiles approaching your aircraft ----

Even today BVR cannot be deemed really successful, because of these factors, the only time it can be successful is that when the target aircraft is and the attacker has a difference of an entire generation -- (4th and 5th) --- only then can you say---ohk one side will overwhelm the other due to BVR capabilities .... Now taking in two fighters which approach each other at high subsonic or supersonic speeds how much time till they get in to a merge after their BVR fails to get the job done ?? and then again the WVR is inevitable ...

Scientists spend time figuring out better turn rates, climb rates, etc. But the newer US airforce doctrine is of the one to avoid dogfights and perform hit and runs by detecting the adversary first and launch its missile. Is it true or not?

What happens to that doctrine when the likes of PLAAF field J-20 and Russia fields PAK-FA --- There is a reason you have guns and super maneuverability on an F-22, because the Americans know they are ahead but the world will catch up eventually and when that happens (the future) there will be WVR again ....

 

[GURU DUTT]

I took the figures from F-16.net, anyways what the heck --- umm depends on the superiority aircrafts your talking about, the BVR missiles are not just shot 150-170 odd Km's away from the target ...its like wasting your missiles --- in today's world you have bvr shots in like 50-70 odd Km range, and even then you cant say 100 percent success because even aircrafts like JF-17 are now equipt with EW suites, you have a whole array of jamming equipment --- You now have equipment warning you about missiles approaching your aircraft ----

Even today BVR cannot be deemed really successful, because of these factors, the only time it can be successful is that when the target aircraft is and the attacker has a difference of an entire generation -- (4th and 5th) --- only then can you say---ohk one side will overwhelm the other due to BVR capabilities .... Now taking in two fighters which approach each other at high subsonic or supersonic speeds how much time till they get in to a merge after their BVR fails to get the job done ?? and then again the WVR is inevitable ...





What happens to that doctrine when the likes of PLAAF field J-20 and Russia fields PAK-FA --- There is a reason you have guns and super maneuverability on an F-22, because the Americans know they are ahead but the world will catch up eventually and when that happens (the future) there will be WVR again ....

well sir the thread is about SU30MKI& how PAF counters it well as for BVR's sir be rest assured onli if few pakistanies and there freinds think the range of BVR's in indian inoventarry is 70-80KM's well we are more happy if you beleve so (there is no better enemy whos over confident and deilliosioned about its enemies real cabailities)

about Stealth Planes well they wont be in south asian theater for at least one decade so forget about them

and about chinese fielding there super stealth planes for aiding PAF well there is a story that comes to my mind

boy 1...se my dad bought me a new Bike(gleeming with pride showing of to naighbour hood kids)

Boy 2...my uncle has a bigger and better bike than this (burning in jealousy)

now who is boy1, boy 2 , uncle & the bike go figure

 

[abdulbarijan]

well sir the thread is about SU30MKI& how PAF counters it well as for BVR's sir be rest assured onli if few pakistanies and there freinds think the range of BVR's in indian inoventarry is 70-80KM's well we are more happy if you beleve so (there is no better enemy whos over confident and deilliosioned about its enemies real cabailities)

I never said that--- however If you wanna continue believing that your pilots are so stupid that they will try and shoot a BVR missile on its max ranges -- then I have no words for you ---

about Stealth Planes well they wont be in south asian theater for at least one decade so forget about them

and about chinese fielding there super stealth planes for aiding PAF well there is a story that comes to my mind

boy 1...se my dad bought me a new Bike(gleeming with pride showing of to naighbour hood kids)

Boy 2...my uncle has a bigger and better bike than this (burning in jealousy)

now who is boy1, boy 2 , uncle & the bike go figure

I never talked about China aiding Pakistan -- infact the only time I came close was when I said India would need to field some of its assets near the Chinese border as a safety insurance ...

Hats off for the "Nice stories", but the fact is you didn't see the context--- you just saw your fellow member getting owned in his own points (BVR being the future and the dominant course of action)---

Well actually this is how the story really goes

boy 1 (starts gleaming with pride) : This bike is soo awesome its got this and that --- and 10 years from now (if my plans stay on course and economy stays stable) I will get this bike !!!

 

[GURU DUTT]

I never said that--- however If you wanna continue believing that your pilots are so stupid that they will try and shoot a BVR missile on its max ranges -- then I have no words for you ---






I never talked about China aiding Pakistan -- infact the only time I came close was when I said India would need to field some of its assets near the Chinese border as a safety insurance ...

Hats of for the "Nice stories", but the fact is you didn't see the context--- you just saw your fellow member getting owned in his own points (BVR being the future and the dominant course of action)---

Well actually this is how the story really goes

boy 1 (starts gleaming with pride) : 10 years from now (if my plans stay on course and economy stays stable) I will get this bike !!!

well to start with well sir try to read what some of your poasters said i just replied as its a norm here that when paksitani fan boys have no answer they start cribbing about chinese might and in my earlier post if u can see i said onli 180 MKI's are for western front rest will be stationed for eastern front and same ratio goes for all other war planes and IAF & IA assets

now about the bike well if we have a bike today (3 foot child=MKI) then in 10 years we will have *(geared one MRCA & a mobike FGFA) now what will you do about it then as we have already started the process required
http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...5R-z03-hd69JjLTiDD-PQ&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bmk

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...SCod5bjesbPahlz3dpj7A&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bmk


http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...HysgR8vUF7hwerTMBeAQA&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bmk